2020 Defender Spy Shots....

[mpinco]

We could compare two rigs now that are similar, the Colorado 2.8L diesel and the Ranger 2.3L EB, modern diesel vs modern small displacement turbo. While there is no arguing the diesel gets better mileage, it's nowhere near double. We are talking 19-23 MPG vs 25-29 MPG, which works out to be 4-5 MPG difference. Remove all the emissions stuff from the diesel and you probably in the low 30's, but sadly, those times are long gone.

I've really come to appreciate the 600 mile range of my Discovery 5 TDV6 (1-3/4 tanks of fuel Atlanta to upstate New York) so I'm waiting for a diesel Defender. Having a boatload of torque at 1500 rpm is addicting...........

.....Both the P360 and P400 variants better the old supercharged V-6's EPA city, highway, and combined fuel economy ratings by 2 mpg, although our 5384-pound test car (201 pounds heavier than our last V-6 Sport) averaged just 16 mpg during its time with us. ........."

Case in point - 26mpg for Jack's travels, which with the lighter weight of the new Defender would probably be near 30mpg vs 16mpg for the P400 MHEV which would also benefit from a lighter vehicle and guessing 20mpg. That's + 50 to 60% for diesel, roughly apples to apples. Not insignificant. Now when loaded and/or towing I wouldn't be surprised to see that jump to near double.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Make a <insert favorite brand/model>. Update it with current materials, modern design, engineering, and manufacturing standards. (cheaper, lighter, stronger, etc). Use a proven, time tested, reliable engine and trans combo. No turbo or hybrid or the need to harvest energy when slowing down. We want easy to maintain and reliable with this model. Put the AC compressor and alternator up top. Give it a manual T case with 4.1 gear set. Cable lockers. Mechanical steering and a throttle cable. Put a separate screen in for the backup cam to appease the safety nazis, so when it quits working, it can be taken out or easily replaced. Removable top and doors. No vehicle is perfect, but slapping a bunch of tech onto a vehicle designed for rugged off road use is not a good recipe.

Your post is quite honestly what must every enthusiast has said the past decade or two.

 

[Todd780]

Todd,

People keeps bringing back the G-Wagen as an example. Last Sunday I drove from Quebec to Boston and stopped near the border in Vermont for refueling.

The Dodge dealer had a G-Wagen for sale, which is a bit unusual for that corner of the country. I went over to look at it, just for fun....

Used 2014 Mercedes-Benz G-Class G63 AMG All-wheel Drive For Sale in Newport, VT | VIN# WDCYC7DF3EX215382

Used 2014 Mercedes-Benz G-Class SUV from Northpoint Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Ram in Newport, VT, 05855-9487. Call (802) 323-1695 for more information. | Stock# NJ19161A

www.northpointvt.com

$75K (+taxes) for a 2014 with 55000 miles, and the paint was already faded and there was rust coming out. The interior was also very so-so. At first I thought it was a 2004. I did not think it looked that good, and there is no way on earth I would pay $75K for that.

View attachment 538263

And the worst part is the fuel mileage...can you really live with 12/14 mpg?

Compared to that, the new Defender seems a lot more attractive.

Sorry, I more brought up the new G wagon as a comparison to how Mercedes kept the 2019 redesign similar to that of the 2018. I can honestly barely tell them apart....

I'm not a buyer for a G wagon either though. Again, I'm too cheap, lol

 

[nickw]

Case in point - 26mpg for Jack's travels, which with the lighter weight of the new Defender would probably be near 30mpg vs 16mpg for the P400 MHEV which would also benefit from a lighter vehicle and guessing 20mpg. That's + 50 to 60% for diesel, roughly apples to apples. Not insignificant. Now when loaded and/or towing I wouldn't be surprised to see that jump to near double.

I don't follow your math, I'll concede you may see + 50% for diesel in some rare cases, but not double. Most of the full size diesel pickups get 30-50% efficiency gain in diesel to gas, while towing, those are N/A gas engines, it's less when not towing. The reference 16 mpg from C&D is one data point only.....

 

[nickw]

Sorry, I more brought up the new G wagon as a comparison to how Mercedes kept the 2019 redesign similar to that of the 2018. I can honestly barely tell them apart....

I'm not a buyer for a G wagon either though. Again, I'm too cheap, lol

+1, I can't tell them apart either...

 

[DieselRanger]

CDN pricing....

View attachment 538244

View attachment 538245

What does "base" mean? You added $8,700 in options and extras.

 

[DieselRanger]

Same with the LC...JLR already has a handful of IFS/IRS luxo soft roaders.....why more of the same?

Just make the Defender the rugged offroader...and if you want luxury, JLR has plenty of options for your...Range Rover, RR Sport, LR4/5, Discovery, Discovery Sport (******?), whatever

For the Defender: Solid rear axle, Normally aspirated 4 and 6 cyl, AC and power windows/locks as the only luxuries. Manual control of everything. No need for screens or programmed terrain response. Sliders and knobs for air con and radio. No air suspension. Slider side cargo windows. Cloth seats and cheap flooring. Back away from the 1999 concept car styling. Maybe even removable top and doors?!

They do make that. It's called the Mahindra Roxor and it costs under $30K loaded.

 

[DieselRanger]

For me the most revealing aspect of the release were the 85 ECU's and $12K price adder for the P400 MHEV engine/powertrain.

Why are they moving the entire product line upscale into very expensive territory? Look no further than the $12K adder for the P400 MHEV. Future products will be loaded with ECU's running hybrid/EV drivetrains. Those are expensive and require extensive use of control systems. Wouldn't be surprised to see the D6 running hybrid/EV and sporting even more ECU's slot in at $100K. The Defender will follow in those footsteps.

So you realize the $12K isn't just for the engine, right? It bumps you up to the SE which carries a number of other additions. I do wish they'd build perfectly to order but no automaker does that for the US market aside from the ultra high-end marques.

 

[DieselRanger]

Except the LC stands on a history of bullet-proof reliability.

Reliability is LR's original sin. Those who don't think LR vehicles are reliable will never, ever be convinced otherwise. There will always be a Friday car somewhere that someone will point to and say, "See?!?! I TOLD you so...."

Wasn't too long ago Toyota recalled all their brand-new 4Runners and Tacos because the rear differentials were failing and causing accidents. Jeep just tried to tell a bunch of owners to pound sand on the death wobble issue on brand-new Wranglers until the NHTSA threatened to get involved.

EVERY automaker has aw-******** moments.

 

[Todd780]

What does "base" mean? You added $8,700 in options and extras.

The 4 cyl version. Not the 6 cyl.

 

[calicamper]

Todd,

People keeps bringing back the G-Wagen as an example. Last Sunday I drove from Quebec to Boston and stopped near the border in Vermont for refueling.

The Dodge dealer had a G-Wagen for sale, which is a bit unusual for that corner of the country. I went over to look at it, just for fun....

Used 2014 Mercedes-Benz G-Class G63 AMG All-wheel Drive For Sale in Newport, VT | VIN# WDCYC7DF3EX215382

Used 2014 Mercedes-Benz G-Class SUV from Northpoint Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Ram in Newport, VT, 05855-9487. Call (802) 323-1695 for more information. | Stock# NJ19161A

www.northpointvt.com

$75K (+taxes) for a 2014 with 55000 miles, and the paint was already faded and there was rust coming out. The interior was also very so-so. At first I thought it was a 2004. I did not think it looked that good, and there is no way on earth I would pay $75K for that.

View attachment 538263

And the worst part is the fuel mileage...can you really live with 12/14 mpg?

Compared to that, the new Defender seems a lot more attractive.

I looked at a 2019 GLS last week checking off possible options. I have a inherited SLK350 fun car 2006 with 20,000 miles on it. No joke the 2019 GLS $80,000 rig had the same exact dash fittings my 06 has. The seating material is called Mtex my parents 1979 VW had the same seating material. Mercedes is really, really dated on their bread and butter rides. 2020 GLS gets major ground up redo.

The G wagon is crazy dated.

 

[DieselRanger]

I thought Mercedes did a good job with the new G wagen.

View attachment 538249

Jesus, let's talk about a bloated, overpriced, ancient piece of iron. You can't get into a G-Wagen for less than $124K - that is literally what they start at.

 

[JackW]

Case in point - 26mpg for Jack's travels, which with the lighter weight of the new Defender would probably be near 30mpg vs 16mpg for the P400 MHEV which would also benefit from a lighter vehicle and guessing 20mpg. That's + 50 to 60% for diesel, roughly apples to apples. Not insignificant. Now when loaded and/or towing I wouldn't be surprised to see that jump to near double.

Highway mileage on my diesel D5 at around 70 mph is averaging right around 28.5-30 mpg - best on one tank was 30.81 mpg back in May of this year - with a lot of mileage results around 29 mpg on our multiple trips to upstate New York or Florida.
Towing a 2700 lb travel trailer back from Orlando to Atlanta we got around 20 mpg (at 70 mph) and my around town mileage averages 19-21 mpg in daily driving. I would expect the Defender to get better than that.

The big advantage of the diesel is that the torque peak comes in at a much lower rpm - when you are cruising at 1700 rpm at 70 mph and come up on some slower traffic, acceleration is definitely better with the diesel when you roll on the throttle.

Another is range - my diesel Defender 90 has a usable range of over 300 miles on the highway - almost double what an NAS Defender can do on the same 14 gallon tank.

But the biggest single advantage is driving a diesel off-road that low speed torque just makes everything so much easier. I just stick my D-90 in low range, center diff locked, select which gear I want for ground speed (usually second) and sit back and steer.
The torque right off idle just lets you crawl along and steer around the obstacles. I'm always amazed at just how right Land Rover got the gear ratios on a 300 Tdi Defender 90. It seems that there is a perfect gear for each terrain.
It will do 70 on the high end and its admittedly happier at 60-65 but off road its just magic.

But - it appears that we may not get the opportunity to find out - Land Rover is rumored to NOT be bringing the diesel Defender to the United States - news that greatly upsets this life long Land Rover enthusiast.

 

[Todd780]

Jesus, let's talk about a bloated, overpriced, ancient piece of iron. You can't get into a G-Wagen for less than $124K - that is literally what they start at.

I wasn't referring to pricing by bringing up the Benz. Just how similar the 2019 redesign was to the old 2018 version.

 

[DieselRanger]

I hear ya but I have just come to accept tech and appreciate it for what it is. This thing also a brake-by-wire setup....if you didn't think the steering thing was sketchy enough

Electronic braking systems, steering systems, and throttles have fewer moving parts and fewer failure points. And literally millions of road miles on them across the industry. In fact, these control systems were first developed for fighter jets in the 1970s because the control surfaces were engineered so precisely that computers were required to keep them trimmed - humans couldn't do it, but they enabled far higher performance than hydraulics and cables had in generations prior. It's the ultimate trickle-down technology.