2nd Gen Montero vs 3rd Gen 4 Runner?

[OneTime]

So 95SR are the holy grail?

 

[off-roader]

So 95SR are the holy grail?

IMHO the 94-96SRs are especially for my wheeling needs. You can buy the gen 2.5 (flared fenders) with a locker but these are the ones with the lower 4.2:1 ratio ring gear but will have lower mileage in general over the earlier 94-96SR.

The newer Gen 2.5's can be made better since their R&P's can be upgraded to 4.9:1 just like the SR's.

HTH.

 

[Martinjmpr]

Can I play Devil's Advocate here?

Thank you. Now where was I?

Oh, yes.

As much as I like Mitsubishis, I'd recommend a 3rd gen 4runner even though you will pay more for them initially.

The two biggest problems with the 2nd gen Monty are (1) the desirable 2nd gen style ended around 1998 (not sure of the exact Model Year) which means they are quite old (whereas you can get a 3rd gen 4runner up through 2002) and (2) Montero's are "orphan vehicles" and hard to find aftermarket support for. Mitsubishi never did support them much and now they are almost gone from the US car market.

OTOH, 3rd gen 4runners can be found with the locking rear diff pretty easily. I paid $7999 for mine with 117k on it, which is a lot more than I'd pay for an equivalent Monty, but OTOH what are the chances you can even find a Monty with that kind of mileage? They are out there but they're rare (and finding the one with the desirable locking diff is even harder.)

As for reliability, you had a 2nd gen 4runner, with the 3.0 which was a notorious gasket-eater. The 3.4 in the 3rd gen is pretty much acknowledged to be as bulletproof as engines get, and the power is respectable though not spectacular.

Another plus for the 3.4 is that it is a non-interference engine, meaning a t-belt failure won't ruin it. Also the T-belt interval is 90k vs 60k for the Monty.

Bottom line to me is that while the Monty can do anything a similarly-equipped 3rd gen 4Runner can do (and vice-versa), I don't know of anything that a Monty can do better than a 3rd gen 4runner. About the only advantage I can think of regarding the Monty is that the fuel tank is much bigger which will give you longer range. Other than that, it's a draw.

As for cost, the Monty will be cheaper to buy, but more expensive to modify as parts and accessories are hard to come by.

Incidentally, 4runners aren't that pricey. If you don't mind high miles and a few dings, you can find a 97-98 4runner with a locking diff for less than $5k.

 

[off-roader]

Thank you. Now where was I?
...
The two biggest problems with the 2nd gen Monty are (1) the desirable 2nd gen style ended around 1998 (not sure of the exact Model Year) which means they are quite old (whereas you can get a 3rd gen 4runner up through 2002) and (2) Montero's are "orphan vehicles" and hard to find aftermarket support for. Mitsubishi never did support them much and now they are almost gone from the US car market.

I guess there's a cost associated with not having a run of the mill 4x4.
Just kidding... just kidding. Some folks like me do prefer a different rig hence the reason I went with a Montero in the first place.

Seriously speaking though, the preferred (for moderate to hard core wheeling such as +4 or greater trails) late model Montero years range from 1994-2000 with the OE Mitsu locker. I know for sure the 94-96 Montero SR's and I've been told the 97-00 Monteros with the winter package option also came with that locker. The plus with the Mitsu locker is the stock 'Ford 9" sized' rear end.

Alternatively you can get an ARB for the rear & rear locker on any of the non locked v6 Montero's.

As for my own costs, my 96 w/ 200k, a used engine with an unknown history was $1350. Cost for doing the timing belt was ~$500 thanks to a good friend.

Cost for my mods are as follows..
Already done...
- Modify front & rear frame ends to accept any Jeep Wrangler Bumper + reinforcement...: $350
- Bumpers: The world is your oyster with all the jeep options LOL. Mine were $350 for the front and rear bumpers.
- Body Lift (4crawler.com): $125 for 2", $145 for 3" (I have a 2" lift)

Still in the works...
- Rock Skids (Trail-Gear.com): $150 + install (cut to fit & weld on)
- Under Body Armor: Custom from $ to $$$$. I haven't purchased anything yet but will likely simply re-enforce a set of stock skid plates with 1/4" ribs.
- 4.9:1 R&P gears from a 99-01 Montero Sport: $600+ lightly used from salvage yard or probably $$$ new from a dealer of your choice.
- 3.15:1 xcase gears from Australia: AU$1268 + shipping
- Front ARB RD110 Locker: ~$900
- Air Source for Locker: $?? depends on what you opt for. Myself I have both a "$70 costco special" compressor as well as a 15lb CO2 tank for basic duties but if/when I opt for the front ARB locker, I'll likely purchase the ARB unit or simply mount and plumb my Costco Special.

 

[Dolomiti]

I guess there's a cost associated with not having a run of the mill 4x4.

Agreed. You can still find the stuff you need for the Monteros, even the 1st Generation. I really don't see how there is that much more support for the 4runner than there is for the Montero, but perhaps I am missing something. In my view, unless you are comparing against a LR Disco, Defender 110, or a Landcruiser, you are going to have to be a little more creative.

 

[off-roader]

Agreed. You can still find the stuff you need for the Monteros, even the 1st Generation. I really don't see how there is that much more support for the 4runner than there is for the Montero, but perhaps I am missing something. In my view, unless you are comparing against a LR Disco, Defender 110, or a Landcruiser, you are going to have to be a little more creative.

Well, there is quite a bit in the area of knowledgeable mechanics and 4runner fabricators.

Ask someone what axles and what gears you need to do an SAS on the front end and from the 4runner crowd, you'll likely hear 5x as many voices. Doesn't mean it can't be done on the Monty. You just have to be a bit more persistent because there are people who have done it.

Now what would be cool to see is a SAS'd & re-geared xcase Gen III Montero on 35's or bigger built for crawling. That would be interesting!!... for me anyway LOL

 

[78Bronco]

That's a great idea.

Now what would be cool to see is a SAS'd & re-geared xcase Gen III Montero on 35's or bigger built for crawling. That would be interesting!!... for me anyway LOL

Sounds like my ongoing '94 monty project. Dana 44 from a 78 F250 shortened to take early bronco axle shafts. Chevy high steer knuckles. 3 Link'd plus Panhard. Still trying to come up with an idea for the ABS sensor and retaining the stock brake calipers and rotors. Then it's a matter of doing.

4runner seems small and Monty has better visibility.

 

[off-roader]

There's a few guys on the 4x4 wire who've done this upgrade to a gen 1 short wheelbase rigs. Worth looking into. One's got dual xcases mated up. Others have SAS'd their rigs. One put the body on a Chevy or Ford truck frame (shortened the frame) and used the stock chevy or ford running gear.
:Wow1::Wow1::Wow1::drool::drool::drool:

 

[78Bronco]

There's a few guys on the 4x4 wire who've done this upgrade to a gen 1 short wheelbase rigs. Worth looking into. One's got dual xcases mated up. Others have SAS'd their rigs. One put the body on a Chevy or Ford truck frame (shortened the frame) and used the stock chevy or ford running gear.

I have poked around over there and seen some of the Gen1 setups. Not that many Gen2's have been done yet.

Anyway, I looked around in my local car market for a couple weeks and all the Nissan and Toyota's had higher mileage, less room, gas engines and were priced too high. I also considered an 80 series LC but was dissapointed they were full time 4 wheel drive and didn't have 2hi. For the money the monty is a good score. The after-market will catch on. Pajero's and Monty's are pretty popular in Europe, Aus and Africa.

Sure my Pajero is a little older but it's in great shape.

 

[off-roader]

I have poked around over there and seen some of the Gen1 setups. Not that many Gen2's have been done yet.

I suspect it would be the same process/effort to do a Gen 2 SAS as it is for the Gen 1 so don't let the fact that nobody else has knowingly attempted it stop you. Especially if that's the direction you're headed. Also check out the Aussie forums. There are SAS'd Gen 2's there.

More important question though is what you hope to gain by doing the swap?

For most wheelers, the stock setup is more than adequate as it can handle all but the most extreme trails with the proper mods. Granted it won't articulate like a SAS'd rig or necessarily be as tall as one but if you can still get through unaided what difference does it make right?

So what's important for your wheeling needs? Is a SAS critical or are we just pipe dreaming (I do this all the time BTW)?

Are you after more of an Expedition, rock crawling, or desert racing rig? Each is build dramatically different but if you want all 3 then a near stock montero will by far be your best bet.

If rock crawling then the more traction you can get the better. As it is now, I have one friend who run 37x14.5 Goodyear MT's on his 94SR. He had to do a 3" body lift + 2" suspension lift (longer coils in back and torque the torsion bars in front) and they fit fine. To improve performance he regeared both the R&P gears (Mitsu OEM 4.9:1) & the Xcase gears (Marks 4WD xcase gearing for Monteros 3.15:1). It's been on all but the most extreme (rock buggies only) trails. We're talking Fordyce, Dusy Ersham, Rubicon are all a cake walk for this rig.

Of course, driver skill does pay dividends here too and even driver skill can't get you past something if your rig isn't built well enough.
:smiley_drive:

 

[78Bronco]

More important question though is what you hope to gain by doing the swap?

The intention is to simplify the front drivetrain, steering and suspension. NO more silly idler arm and 3 steering links. No more CV's limiting suspension travel. The front bumper is getting replaced so I can create more forward room. I can position the front axle where I want, so if I want a larger tire I can move the front axle forward to clear the rear part of the front fenderwell. While maintaining a lower stance. I plan on keeping this truck for a long time and feel that it's cheaper to replace chevy TRE, ball joints and wheel breaings vs. Mitsu.

It's a diesel so fast isn't in the plans. I want to keep it low with lots of stability. Body lifts aren't my thing and I don't like being a heat score for the police with a giant truck.:26_7_2: Basically it will be a "jack of all trades" and I think it will handle better than the torsion bar IFS.

Yep it is a pipe dream.

Do you know what the gross axle wieght ratings are for the front and rear axles? My truck doesn't say. Should be on the door sticker.

 

[off-roader]

The intention is to simplify the front drivetrain, steering and suspension. NO more silly idler arm and 3 steering links. No more CV's limiting suspension travel. The front bumper is getting replaced so I can create more forward room. I can position the front axle where I want, so if I want a larger tire I can move the front axle forward to clear the rear part of the front fenderwell. While maintaining a lower stance. I plan on keeping this truck for a long time and feel that it's cheaper to replace chevy TRE, ball joints and wheel breaings vs. Mitsu.

It's a diesel so fast isn't in the plans. I want to keep it low with lots of stability. Body lifts aren't my thing and I don't like being a heat score for the police with a giant truck.:26_7_2: Basically it will be a "jack of all trades" and I think it will handle better than the torsion bar IFS.

Yep it is a pipe dream.

Do you know what the gross axle wieght ratings are for the front and rear axles? My truck doesn't say. Should be on the door sticker.

Wow, how big a tire are you trying to get? I mean, with 35's I'm still shorter than a lot of 'dealer offered' pickup trucks on the highway. 37's w/ an additional 2 inches of suspension/body lift you're gonna be bigger than most stock rigs but still within most jeeps w/ 35's height wise. Any bigger than that and you're gonna have to look at xcase doubling or other ways to compensate for the changes in final gearing... (i suspect) even with a TD (which I would love to have here in California... dam CARB/CA DOT)

I do know what you mean though about the limits in articulation however where articulation fails, having dual selectable lockers (stock in back, arb in front) saves the day probably 90% of the time. Now if most or alot of your wheeling are on the other 10% of the trails, then I agree whole heartedly that you should seriously consider a SAS.

Plus there's no getting around it.. the chances are your IFS will DEFINITELY be much more comfortable than most solid axle rigs. Now, admittedly I'm no expert here but I'd like to learn of a solid front that's more comfortable than an IFS Monty both on the road and on the trail.

If there is one, then I'd recommend you do your damdest to reproduce the front suspension geometry and spring rates.

And yes ifs is more complicated but really the only weak spots I'm seeing up front in a Gen II are the tie rod ends and although they can and do break, they are cheap (@JY's) and VERY easy to replace even on the trail (10 minutes).

But that said, I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, just trying to verify the logic in your justifications.:ylsmoke:

And, if you do ultimately decide to go SAS, I'll be the first to congratulate and encourage you so long as you post copious pics of the process.:smiley_drive:

 

[78Bronco]

Wow, how big a tire are you trying to get?

I'm looking to run 35's at the most, maybe a Q78 for the extra tread depth. I run a set of 33x10.5's for the trails and they fit good with no lift.

So far I am impressed with the handling of the IFS but prefer a simple approach.

Maybe I should get my bronco finished before messing with the Pajero.

:chef:I'm still cooking up dreams:chef:

 

[dynamice]

Monty

I think i've decided on a Montero. 4 Runners, although more common and alot more user feedback out there, are running double the cost of a comparable Montero on Craigslist for the same milage/options. I also looked at Landcruisers, but the economy or milage and the cost of baselining(headgasket fix) puts it out of my budget.

Now that i've kinda figured things out, what are some key things too look at with the Monty, besides the obvious like carfax, rust, timingbelt, maintence. Any other potential big dollar repairs that are floating out there that can be spotted/neogotiated with?

 

[off-roader]

Now that i've kinda figured things out, what are some key things too look at with the Monty, besides the obvious like carfax, rust, timingbelt, maintence. Any other potential big dollar repairs that are floating out there that can be spotted/neogotiated with?

Again I'm far from an expert but when I bought my 96SR earlier this year I saw in the local Craigs list for $2500. Granted gas prices were :Wow1: at the time too.

I found the following Drivetrain Flaws...
It had 211k miles and was on a 2nd engine which was a used replacement engine taken from another SR in a local parts yard. Condition of replacement engine was OK but needed the following maintenance.

PROBLEM: The AC & Accessory belts were very worn/cracked so I suspected a Timing Belt was required.
COST: +$700 from a local mechanic.
MY FIX: Do this myself or have a buddy who's a mechanic help me out.

PROBLEM: The block leaked oil from the front cam seals.
COST: this can be taken care of w/ timing belts for the cost of parts and at most an additional 1/2 hr of labor.
MY FIX: See above.

PROBLEM: It needed a full tune up had to be done & the plugs replaced which meant a huge maintenance bill because the manual calls for the Intake Manifold be removed in order to replace the rear passenger side spark plug.
COST: Not sure but I knew it wouldn't be cheap to have done. I factored in another $500
MY FIX: See above.

PROBLEM: I found the Central Axle Disconnect lights blinked when I tried to take it out of 4wd. This was after I confirmed (via listening & feeling them disengage) that it did go into 2wd. After several attempts, it finally went off. That told me the switches at the transfer case either needed to be cleaned or replaced.
COST: Unknown. The fix included dropping the xcase from the body to access the electronics above it.
MY FIX: Do it myself.

PROBLEM: It also had a check engine light lit which meant an OBDII code was stored in the ECU.
COST: Who knows what that might turn up as!!
WHAT I told the seller: I told him I'd buy it but the sale was pending finding out the OBDII Code and cost of the fix. Ultimately I purchased it anyway.
MY FIX: Turned out to be a vacuum leak that was fixed for $200.

PROBLEM: It produced black /grey smoked caused by valve guide seals. Can see this if you start the cold engine and rev it or let a warm engine idle for a couple of minutes then rev it.
COST: This was most likely caused by the widely know valve guide seal issue which means they would have to be replaced to fix this problem. +$500
MY FIX: Let her smoke. I have a backup Cat which I'll throw on when I have to have her smogged in 2 years (assuming she passes for the registration).

PROBLEM: Exterior-wise, it was okay but had been in a minor accident and the front right fender showed very minor signs of damage (can't tell from 5' away) & front passenger fender flare was loose. Upon further inspection I found it was because the clip wouldnt go into the hole in the fender because of the accident.
COST: That meant body work repairs and possible painting.
MY FIX: The flare is not falling off and the damage is not substancial. This is a trail rig. I'm not worried about it.

PROBLEM: Interior-wise, the driver seat cushion was shot and the 2 tone leather cover had huge gaping holes where the foam underneath was not only showing but being destroyed by the previous owner not fixing it.
COST: $500 to repair / replace the leather.
MY FIX: I had planed to have the seats recovered w/ new leather or vinyl.

PROBLEM: No radio and the antenna was broken.
COST: $200 for a radio and $100 for a new antenna.
MY FIX: I bought a top end radio for $250 and got an antenna at the local pick and pull for $10

After negotiating this with him (factoring in the added cost I'd incur) I purchased it for $1350 (pending results from OBDII scan).

HTH.