non_applicable
Observer
Thanks Toolman! Awesome of you to offer!
I think it will come down to time. If I'm running short on time I'll just modify the kit. If I'm okay on time, I'll build from scratch.
4 link, Coilover, 4x4, e350 Conversion - King / Full Traction
- Thread starter non_applicable
- Start date
Thanks Toolman! Awesome of you to offer!
I think it will come down to time. If I'm running short on time I'll just modify the kit. If I'm okay on time, I'll build from scratch.
BajaSportsmobile
Baja Ironman
I can't understand why some one would want 6" to 8"of lift and raise the COG, unless it is because you want the "Monster Truck" look. But that is just my opinion. I have 35's on my van and it only has ~3 inches of lift and 12 inches of vertical wheel travel. Climbing in and out of it is already a pain. When we work on vans with 6" and 8" lifts you feel like you need a ladder and I'm over 6' so it isn't 'cause I short. I come from a desert racing back ground and we don't want "lift" we want wheel travel and low COGs.
Just because a suspension system has very little body roll does not mean it handles well - you can accomplish the same thing by welding in the axles or using really stiff springs. It needs to be able to absorb dips and bumps as well without feeling like you've got no suspension movement (most really don't have any) and not send your occupants for a ride. I saw a video someone posted of a leaf sprung van driving a little faster than all the other video's I see (ever notice they are all going slow in low range) and he hit a little rough spot in the road and the van went sideways and then the video ends so we don't see how it really handled, but it didn't look like it was going to be too good.
I have a speed bump test right around the corner from the shop - they all fail it. If you can't drive over a speed bump in parking lot at normal speed without slowing down and not suck it up with the suspension, well it doesn't work for me. Do the test with your wife in the right seat and see what she says. If she doesn't have her seat belt on she will be sitting on the dash.
You can adjust caster at the radius arm pivot bracket (change height) and at the axle end of the radius arm (adjustment cam).
The panhard bar (track bar) is no big deal either, heck even the taller leaf spring vans need them, so that shouldn't be a concern. Build your own with tube and rod ends.
Dropped Pitman arms are easy to come by - depending on the P/S box you have you can use a ProComp FD400 (small sector shaft) or FD500 (lagrge sector shaft).
Whatever you do, push your front axle center line forward 1.5 inches or more for fender clearance.
I'd skip the coilover and just use the stock coil bucket and shock mount - not much to be gained for the expense and those coilovers are going to need some major tuning to get them right because out of the box the have too much free bleed... We are building a E250 RB, SMB, PH with coilovers but it is going to be pretty extreme with 17 inches of travel and 37's and get a lot of rock rash and beatings.
Give you plan a try, it should work just fine.
non_applicable
Observer
Is it difficult to tune coilovers? It's sounds fun, I'd like to be able to tune my own ride suspension.
That's really impressive. What does it take to set something like that up, maybe I want to go that route? Do you have coil springs in the rear? I wish I were in Southern California, I'd love to see what something like that looks like. Do you happen have any pictures?!
I'm starting to feel bad for my dog that's going to be ridding in the back, bouncing along in his crate. I'm never going to tow with this van, it's just for traveling about. What do you think of coil springs in the rear, with a good stout radius arm, or 4 link, and airbags for when I need to put something heavy in the back? I saw them do this setup on Extreme 4x4, it looked pretty slick. Do you have any real world feedback on that sort of a setup? If it's a terrible idea, I consider that perfectly good feedback too, I know there's a lot of torque to deal with back there.
Wait, didn't you just say you're building a van with 37's? haha, yeah I hear ya. I go back and forth on the COG issue, and if the ride were unstable I'd drop it down. But yes, part of it is asthetic. I don't like the look of huge tires stuffed up inside of wheel wells with little gap between the wheel and the body, especially on big square blocks of vehicle, like a van. I think it just looks better with some space between the tires and the body.
(EDIT: Okay, regarding your van with 17 inches of travel and 37's. I've been watching more Extreme 4x4 or Extreme Off Road, or something extreme anyway, and I get it now. More cutting, less lifting. I'll be thinking about this concept tonight, though I need to get my van here so I can start to visualize, take some dimensions, and get some Solidworks going.)
Thanks for the vote of convidence and all the feedback!
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non_applicable
Observer
That was awesome. I can see this building suspension stuff getting out of hand pretty quickly .... hopefully my wife will talk me down and remind me that I just need something that rides nice and goes through snow and mud.
BajaSportsmobile
Baja Ironman
It pretty much does - even at 10,000 pounds.
Watch the front tire (~35" BFGs) in relationship to the fender opening and you will get an idea of the wheel travel and travel range.
non_applicable
Observer
I found this interesting setup, a Triangulated 4 link on a Duramax van. Looks like something fun to look into later.
I also found some books. Chassis Engineering - Herb Adams, Fundamentals of Vehicle Dynamics - Thomas D Gillespe, Off-Road Vehicle Engineering Principles - Carroll Goering, Terramechanics and Off-Road Vehicle Engineering - J.Y. Wong, Ph.D., D.Sc
I also found some books. Chassis Engineering - Herb Adams, Fundamentals of Vehicle Dynamics - Thomas D Gillespe, Off-Road Vehicle Engineering Principles - Carroll Goering, Terramechanics and Off-Road Vehicle Engineering - J.Y. Wong, Ph.D., D.Sc
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Toolman
Explorer
If that's all you need then buy a jeep.
If you are going to build a dream van on 40's with coil overs. Better add an atlas 4 speed to it as well.
I had a good look at a TTB yesterday and all I kept thinking was -- "WHERE'S THE BEEF ?" Seems like an overloaded SMB would snap parts on those axles in minutes on the trail, and at best would need maintenance sooner, but I could be wrong. Coming down a steep decline and all the weight on those dinky parts... wew, no peace of mind there for me. AO is running hard in Baja so they must hold up.
For me the symmetry of a van on 35's and 6" lift looks good and it also performs well. I know it's a tall rig but I have a better view up here and I still fit in the TB drive trough. I'd like to run with you AO and really see how much better "it" is.
I hit speed bumps at any speed and its all soaked up, even better when loaded down. I keep going back to it's a 1 ton truck
ujoint
Supporting Sponsor
Watch the V5 handling video and then talk to anyone that has ridden in it.
And I know what video you're talking about because I was behind the wheel. Started to get sideways so I backed out and let it straighten to be safe. Or..... it immediately rolled and I have a good body shop and the footage is hidden somewhere....
Knowing the limits of a rig is the most important thing, they all can't do everything perfectly in all scenarios. And ride quality is subjective. We build vans for long term durability and overall quality. Can someone build a super bad 4 link coil over setup that will out perform our leaf spring setup? Sure, in the right hands that can easily be done and it would be idiotic of me to deny that. Its just not cost effective for 99% of van users and they'll never utilize what they've got. We provide kits for guys that want a solid 4x4 van that they can build & maintain themselves that will work well in all conditions.
I haven't ruled out a coil sprung 4x4 setup from UJOR in the future but I can guarantee it won't be TTB.
Look up "rear axle steer" while you're doing your research, and it's solutions. With axles capable of that much articulation there is usually a whole bunch of stuff going on under there. The axle will not only pivot vertically, it will rotate in the horizontal plane as well. This will cause your rear end to crab walk one direction or the other, depending on which wheel is up and which down.
ALL designs have their pluses and minuses. Cost, durability, ease of maintenance, etc etc. Sure, I could build a long travel TTB van using what amounts to a split in half beefed up dana 44, or a castrated dana 60 depending on what you buy, and probably get a bit nicer ride. Personally I'm not crazy about the huge camber changes that kind of axle makes during it's suspension cycle. The wheel doesn't move straight up and down, ever, it's swinging in an arc. Couple that with the usual inverted-y style steering and it's a combo that generally eats tires for lunch. Essentially your ride spends a fair amount of time not only pigeon toed, but bow legged as well.
. Hop on over to the bronco section on this site and ask around for the general consensus on factory TTB setups. I may not be a multi winner of the Joe Bob rock racin champeen-ships, but it doesn't mean I have seen a suspension or two. In reality this thread has almost ceased to function and is bordering on a pishin contest of mine is better than yours. Whatever makes you happy is the bottom line. I'll do my junk the way I want in the end, and so will you. You should probably tell everybody (again) to shut up already. Hehe.
non_applicable
Observer
Unfortunately, a jeep doesn't work for a stealth campervan. I wouldn't mind having one with an eco-diesel for running around in though!
Hmm, I don't know what an Atlas is or why it's cool. I'll have to look into that. I do know that ill need to put in some work on the short comings of the 6.0 though, as I can't find what I want in a 7.3. I wish the GM vans had a way of adding fender flares up front. That's the only thing stopping me from getting an 07 duramax/allison.
The dana44 innards are what keeps me from running with a Dana 50 up front. They did a comparison of the D50 to a 14 bolt on the xtreme show, and he said the same thing. Where's the beef?
The Quigley guys just looking for 4" over stock, and to fix their steering would love you. All they need is an adjustable 4 link. Maybe upgrade the springs and get some performance shocks.
Going up from there to 6"or even 8" over stock would be simple, just add a Pittman arm and a new track bar. And maybe they'd have to move the upper spring holder over 2" so the axle can be moved forward.
I saw that Quigley stuff you were selling for $500 bucks and I really wished I lived in your neck of the woods to buy it up. Someone got a steal of a deal!
I don't think there's anything wrong with the leaf spring setup, I don't know that I've ever even ridden in a leaf sprung vehicle to have an opinion on it. I just wanted to do something different, and I like the idea of a spring without friction, not that the coil spring route doesn't have its own trade offs. I'm glad that so many people enjoy your kit and have nice 1ton 4wd conversions thanks to your work.
non_applicable
Observer
Yeah that TTB setup does have some nice articulation on it and is obviously dialed in really well. I liked that video. It's unfortunate there isn't a Dana 60 TTB.
Toolman
Explorer
dude my friends sleep right next to us in their Rubicondo's all the time. Classic when you see two grown adults all spread out back there. It works.
As far as an atlas goes, lower gear ratio than that of the NV271 less braking on declines which is an absolute NO NO in my book. Should use compression of engine and trans to crawl down hills using the brakes to finesse. Also it is twin stick which means you can control the front rear axle independently in the gear box. example. 2 low front only. 4 speed atlas gives you 3 choices HI-LOW and Super stopper crawl. up to 10.1 where as normal 2 speed atlas in the 3.8 to 4.1 range. NV 271 is 2.7 to 1 .. great for the sand and snow but crap for steep climbing. Which you can hear the brakes squeaking the entire way down the hill in the AO video. classic example of what the gear range can do. The weight of these rigs is crazy and you can just see it weeble wobbling. 4x4 vans are like elephants off road they go but stay out the way.
non_applicable
Observer
Look up "rear axle steer" while you're doing your research, and it's solutions. With axles capable of that much articulation there is usually a whole bunch of stuff going on under there. The axle will not only pivot vertically, it will rotate in the horizontal plane as well. This will cause your rear end to crab walk one direction or the other, depending on which wheel is up and which down.
ALL designs have their pluses and minuses. Cost, durability, ease of maintenance, etc etc. Sure, I could build a long travel TTB van using what amounts to a split in half beefed up dana 44, or a castrated dana 60 depending on what you buy, and probably get a bit nicer ride. Personally I'm not crazy about the huge camber changes that kind of axle makes during it's suspension cycle. The wheel doesn't move straight up and down, ever, it's swinging in an arc. Couple that with the usual inverted-y style steering and it's a combo that generally eats tires for lunch. Essentially your ride spends a fair amount of time not only pigeon toed, but bow legged as well.
In reality this thread has almost ceased to function and is bordering on a pishin contest of mine is better than yours. Whatever makes you happy is the bottom line. I'll do my junk the way I want in the end, and so will you. You should probably tell everybody (again) to shut up already. Hehe.
I doubt the 4 link in the rear will happen for me, and definitely not until I read through all of these books. Nice point about the trade off on these different setups, and on the issues that arise in a system with lots of drop articulation. Definitely points to consider. I'd also not realised the issues with the TTB setup either, thanks for all the interesting information to think about.
You're right on the money with the, everyone is going to run something different, comment. Different folks looking for different things from their vehicles. I'm glad there are multiple options to meet the varying needs and wants.