70 C-20 4x4 Suburban Father/Son project

[snekvasil]

Lance,

I was wondering if/how you improved your suspension. I have a 68 K10 and I updated the shocks but the seem sooooo stinking soft and squishy. Any recommendations? I know it's not going to be the smoothest ride, but it's incredibly bouncy right now. I'm wondering if and how I can change that in an old iron rig like mine.

 

[toddz69]

Lance,

I was wondering if/how you improved your suspension. I have a 68 K10 and I updated the shocks but the seem sooooo stinking soft and squishy. Any recommendations? I know it's not going to be the smoothest ride, but it's incredibly bouncy right now. I'm wondering if and how I can change that in an old iron rig like mine.

I'll let Lance provide the details on the suspension, but I'll provide a 3rd party assessment on the ride/handling and tell you that for a 45 year old vehicle, it's very composed. Excellent ride and handling on everything from pavement to rough, silty two-tracks in Baja. I co-dogged a lot of miles in it in Baja this year chasing our race Bronco in the NORRA Mexican 1000 and came away very impressed. It's probably the best-riding leaf-sprung, solid axle rig I've ever ridden in.

Todd Z.

 

[1leglance]

Wow Todd, those are super kind words...
What Todd didn't mention was that I tend to "fly" my Burb around on Baja trails

I promise I will do my best to get some pics of the springs and shocks tomorrow and post to this thread, something close up.

The way I handled my setup was to go to an excellent shop in town named Valley Spring.
We used a forklift to raise the rig from the side until my prosthetic leg wearing self couldn't get in and out easily and that was our goal height.
Next was to load the rig with EVERYTHING that normally goes on an outing, add some barbell style weights to be me and my family and then add a couple hundred pounds to the front as I was considering a diesel swap.
That gave us the corner weights.
Next the shop built me a multi-leaf pack for each corner with semi-wrap ends. The goal was lots of leafs to be soft and flexible but handle the load.
Since I love to go fast down washboard we talked with Fox Shocks and Valley Spring came up with some valving numbers and 4 remote res shocks were installed and up front were also a couple of hydralic Fox active bump stops...And have I been grateful for those a number of times

The only changes since install were to NOT go diesel so the front actually handles hard bumps well as it is spec'd to be a bit heavier. And we added one more leaf to the rear when I had a dual swing out rear bumper built. That kept me level.

On and just to toss some numbers I am at a GVW of 7500 lbs and run under 6700 lbs fully loaded on the trail. Even with all the family and all the gear/fuel/water and more I have not been over 7000lbs and I love to check on scales often. That really helps when you want a flexible suspension that rides well.

One thing I learned was it was a balance of spring and shock. Personally I would love to learn more able shock valving, get a nitrogen charging setup and play with my setup more. But at this point I am very very happy....mainly due to being lucky that my setup worked so well out of the box.

My advice would be to try to get REAL corner weights on your rig, talk with a good spring maker locally and then talk with someone like Fox or a local suspension shop. Out here in Phoenix we have lots of Baja racer guys so what I wanted wasn't strange. Not sure what you are looking for and where you are but it doesn't hurt to ask.

Oh and while this pertains to autocross this shock article is a great look into how the companies compare from a racer view.
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html

Please ask any and all questions and thanks for reminding me how way way way behind I am on this build...too much fun enjoying the rig to post about it

 

[NOIBN]

Lance,

I was wondering if/how you improved your suspension. I have a 68 K10 and I updated the shocks but the seem sooooo stinking soft and squishy. Any recommendations? I know it's not going to be the smoothest ride, but it's incredibly bouncy right now. I'm wondering if and how I can change that in an old iron rig like mine.

I have a truck like Lance's, only mine is nicer than his. I was dealing with a similar situation to what you have going on and after talking with a Fox rep at Overland Expo this year, I bought a set of 2.0 Performance IFP shocks on the Fox rep's recommendation (he specifically told me these are the shocks to go with--not the Evolution Series and not the remote reservoirs like Lance has unless I am going to Baja--any washobards in the US will be fine with the non-reservoir shocks, it is only Baja Mexico that makes them a requirement). They are tunable to some extent, but I have not found it necessary to do anything to them. The ride quality on normal roads seems similar to my RS9000 shocks, but when the road surface gets funky there is NO COMPARISON whatsoever to the RS9000's. These things will eat the Rancho's lunch. I put them on before a road trip this summer which consisted of everything from smooth gravel roads, to rutted washboards to 80mph interstates and every time one of those road surface imperfections came up, I would automatically cringe in anticipation of wild vehicle reactions, only to be very pleasantly surprised how well the truck behaves now. No more cringing at normal road imperfections or diagonal bumps on highways etc. I commented several times how glad I was to spend the money on those Fox shocks.
Fox 2.0 Performance IFP shocks

I'll let Lance provide the details on the suspension, but I'll provide a 3rd party assessment on the ride/handling and tell you that for a 45 year old vehicle, it's very composed. Excellent ride and handling on everything from pavement to rough, silty two-tracks in Baja. I co-dogged a lot of miles in it in Baja this year chasing our race Bronco in the NORRA Mexican 1000 and came away very impressed. It's probably the best-riding leaf-sprung, solid axle rig I've ever ridden in.

Todd Z.

Wow, that's high praise for that hooptie!!

Wow Todd, those are super kind words...
What Todd didn't mention was that I tend to "fly" my Burb around on Baja trails

I promise I will do my best to get some pics of the springs and shocks tomorrow and post to this thread, something close up.

The way I handled my setup was to go to an excellent shop in town named Valley Spring.
We used a forklift to raise the rig from the side until my prosthetic leg wearing self couldn't get in and out easily and that was our goal height.
Next was to load the rig with EVERYTHING that normally goes on an outing, add some barbell style weights to be me and my family and then add a couple hundred pounds to the front as I was considering a diesel swap.
That gave us the corner weights.
Next the shop built me a multi-leaf pack for each corner with semi-wrap ends. The goal was lots of leafs to be soft and flexible but handle the load.
Since I love to go fast down washboard we talked with Fox Shocks and Valley Spring came up with some valving numbers and 4 remote res shocks were installed and up front were also a couple of hydralic Fox active bump stops...And have I been grateful for those a number of times

The only changes since install were to NOT go diesel so the front actually handles hard bumps well as it is spec'd to be a bit heavier. And we added one more leaf to the rear when I had a dual swing out rear bumper built. That kept me level.

On and just to toss some numbers I am at a GVW of 7500 lbs and run under 6700 lbs fully loaded on the trail. Even with all the family and all the gear/fuel/water and more I have not been over 7000lbs and I love to check on scales often. That really helps when you want a flexible suspension that rides well.

One thing I learned was it was a balance of spring and shock. Personally I would love to learn more able shock valving, get a nitrogen charging setup and play with my setup more. But at this point I am very very happy....mainly due to being lucky that my setup worked so well out of the box.

My advice would be to try to get REAL corner weights on your rig, talk with a good spring maker locally and then talk with someone like Fox or a local suspension shop. Out here in Phoenix we have lots of Baja racer guys so what I wanted wasn't strange. Not sure what you are looking for and where you are but it doesn't hurt to ask.

Oh and while this pertains to autocross this shock article is a great look into how the companies compare from a racer view.
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html

Please ask any and all questions and thanks for reminding me how way way way behind I am on this build...too much fun enjoying the rig to post about it

Wow, a same-day response from Lance on his build thread. What is the world coming to??

 

[snekvasil]

We used a forklift to raise the rig from the side until my prosthetic leg wearing self couldn't get in and out easily and that was our goal height.
Next was to load the rig with EVERYTHING that normally goes on an outing, add some barbell style weights to be me and my family and then add a couple hundred pounds to the front as I was considering a diesel swap.
That gave us the corner weights.
Next the shop built me a multi-leaf pack for each corner with semi-wrap ends. The goal was lots of leafs to be soft and flexible but handle the load.
Since I love to go fast down washboard we talked with Fox Shocks and Valley Spring came up with some valving numbers and 4 remote res shocks were installed and up front were also a couple of hydralic Fox active bump stops...And have I been grateful for those a number of times

The only changes since install were to NOT go diesel so the front actually handles hard bumps well as it is spec'd to be a bit heavier. And we added one more leaf to the rear when I had a dual swing out rear bumper built. That kept me level.

On and just to toss some numbers I am at a GVW of 7500 lbs and run under 6700 lbs fully loaded on the trail. Even with all the family and all the gear/fuel/water and more I have not been over 7000lbs and I love to check on scales often. That really helps when you want a flexible suspension that rides well.

One thing I learned was it was a balance of spring and shock. Personally I would love to learn more able shock valving, get a nitrogen charging setup and play with my setup more. But at this point I am very very happy....mainly due to being lucky that my setup worked so well out of the box.

My advice would be to try to get REAL corner weights on your rig, talk with a good spring maker locally and then talk with someone like Fox or a local suspension shop. Out here in Phoenix we have lots of Baja racer guys so what I wanted wasn't strange. Not sure what you are looking for and where you are but it doesn't hurt to ask.

Oh and while this pertains to autocross this shock article is a great look into how the companies compare from a racer view.
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html

Please ask any and all questions and thanks for reminding me how way way way behind I am on this build...too much fun enjoying the rig to post about it

Ok...that definitely helps, but of course I have more questions now =). I had a custom multi-leaf pack built for my truck to handle the loads I was carrying (mainly wood from doing tree work) alongside all my tools. I'm also planning for a rooftop tent in the near future. When I did the leaf packs, I put on some cheap(ish) Rancho shocks. So, if I'm understanding what you're saying, it seems like I just need better shocks in order to balance out my ride? I'm really happy with my leaf packs so far. They put a good lift on my truck and they've handled some really heavy loads. But wow, sometimes I feel like I'm going to hit the ceiling of my cab if I hit any decent size bumps when I'm going over 20mph.

I guess I'm slightly confused on the mounting, too. Am I going to need a custom setup in order to mount newer shocks? It's hard to find a selection outside of Rancho.

 

[snekvasil]

I have a truck like Lance's, only mine is nicer than his. I was dealing with a similar situation to what you have going on and after talking with a Fox rep at Overland Expo this year, I bought a set of 2.0 Performance IFP shocks on the Fox rep's recommendation (he specifically told me these are the shocks to go with--not the Evolution Series and not the remote reservoirs like Lance has unless I am going to Baja--any washobards in the US will be fine with the non-reservoir shocks, it is only Baja Mexico that makes them a requirement). They are tunable to some extent, but I have not found it necessary to do anything to them. The ride quality on normal roads seems similar to my RS9000 shocks, but when the road surface gets funky there is NO COMPARISON whatsoever to the RS9000's. These things will eat the Rancho's lunch. I put them on before a road trip this summer which consisted of everything from smooth gravel roads, to rutted washboards to 80mph interstates and every time one of those road surface imperfections came up, I would automatically cringe in anticipation of wild vehicle reactions, only to be very pleasantly surprised how well the truck behaves now. No more cringing at normal road imperfections or diagonal bumps on highways etc. I commented several times how glad I was to spend the money on those Fox shocks.
Fox 2.0 Performance IFP shocks

How did you mount those fox shocks? Those things are sweet!

 

[snekvasil]

I promise I will do my best to get some pics of the springs and shocks tomorrow and post to this thread, something close up.

Pictures would be awesome =) I appreciate any help you can give...and I LOVE your burb!

 

[NOIBN]

Ok...that definitely helps, but of course I have more questions now =). I had a custom multi-leaf pack built for my truck to handle the loads I was carrying (mainly wood from doing tree work) alongside all my tools. I'm also planning for a rooftop tent in the near future. When I did the leaf packs, I put on some cheap(ish) Rancho shocks. So, if I'm understanding what you're saying, it seems like I just need better shocks in order to balance out my ride? I'm really happy with my leaf packs so far. They put a good lift on my truck and they've handled some really heavy loads. But wow, sometimes I feel like I'm going to hit the ceiling of my cab if I hit any decent size bumps when I'm going over 20mph.

I guess I'm slightly confused on the mounting, too. Am I going to need a custom setup in order to mount newer shocks? It's hard to find a selection outside of Rancho.

I know you weren't replying to me on this one, but getting Lance to respond to his thread more than once a month is a challenge at best. Provided your springs are not super-stout and very stiff riding, you are describing exactly what I was dealing with when I was running Rancho shocks. Their rebound dampening is non-existent. All of those characteristics went away when I put the Fox shocks on. Immediately. I had to run across town and took the freeway over to my destination and on a nice long sweeping transition ramp, a known bump that unloads the suspension was no longer an issue. Drove right over it like it was not even there.

How did you mount those fox shocks? Those things are sweet!

You buy the ones that have the mounting ends on them that you need. My truck uses stock-type mounting on the rear and I have extended upper mounts on the front, but the mounting type is the same, but it just uses a longer shock. If your springs are flexy, you may want to put a longer shock on the front as well. The stock front shocks on these trucks are ridiculously short.

 

[justcuz]

To determine if your springs or shocks are causing a rough ride, we used to remove the shocks and drive the vehicle.
We would do all kinds of stuff out in the desert testing shocks on washboard and rough pavement. Just remember to drive carefully and make all your transitions (turning, braking, washboard driving and potholes) slowly without shocks. If your springs are good you will get plenty of compliance and the ride should become much more controlled with good shocks. When building springs using stock leafs we would try to keep the shortest leaf in the pack no less than 12" long, preferably 18".
As an example I had a 1963 Chevy 1/2 ton 4x4. From the factory it had 5 leafs in front and 6 in the rear. When I rebuilt the springs I kept the same leaf count in front, but made them longer. Out back, I added a leaf for a total of seven but the shortest rear leaf was about a foot long. Basically they were 3/4 ton rear leafs with the bottom leaf removed. This allowed the springs to be more flexible but still maintained the ride height and weight capacity. KYB was just coming on the market with affordable gas shocks back then so I installed those too.
I used that truck for a few years running chase for desert racers in Nevada, Arizona and California. For what it was it worked good.
Specialty springs are different, they are designed with thinner multiple leaves that allow more spring flexibility. They need short leaves to stiffen them up. They will have progressive leaf lengths starting very short maybe 6 to 8" and progressing in length every inch or so up to the main leaf. Think about old jeep or M37 truck springs as an example.
Flexible springs, good shocks and progressive bump stops are the secret to smooth high speed off roading.
For the average guy good springs and shocks are the key.
For a pickup, I now tend toward 88-98 Chevy overloads since they are long, tapered in thickness and have wear pads on the ends for flexibility. Some times I even mount them upside down so the spring can go negative before it hits the overload, depends on the lift.

 

[busbart]

@ leglance,

I got back to page 1, just to see again with what you started, but I couldn't find the pic's, do you think it's possible to reinstate them so we can have a look with what you started?
Would be nice, I guess?!

Thanks,

Bart

 

[1leglance]

Great idea...
our work computers have trouble with things like that but I will give it a go at home tonight
thanks for the heads up....I am way way behind in the work and adventures of this rig. Still love it and so does my wife (most important thing)

 

[busbart]

I guess you can say; we love it too!!!
seen the hit's your post has...:Wow1:

 

[1leglance]

A few random pics to update....haven't fixed all the old pics yet but figured it would be fun to throw some new ones in....

Still haven't finished my "prototype" center console but happy with the nav

The burb had fun running Utah with friends Bill, Larry, Tony and more...

Still great to camp out of...

Artistic shot and all...

Baja roadside tire change with Todd & Sam after the Mexican 1000

Pit stop during the Norra Mex 1k

 

[1leglance]

Already mod'd the back bumper to take those silly flapping holders off....I told them not to make those but oh well....and you can see my granddads 72 truck in the background...that is our autocrossing street machine

A bit of a view of the newest version of the 4 seats, fridge, sleep platform

 

[chilliwak]

looks really cool. I wish I had one of those old shool Burbs....:ylsmoke: