70 C-20 4x4 Suburban Father/Son project
- Thread starter 1leglance
- Start date
1leglance
2007 Expedition Trophy Champion, Overland Certifie
The donor is a v-belt not J-code engine..
the junkyard trip got me a J-code intake which will be nice as I can get rid of the EGR crap
I will be taking some time before I do the actual swap as I want the donor running well and I want to gather parts so I have everything here ready to go.
If I don't end up getting called into work tonight then tomorrow is power washing day for the 70 burb & the donor so I can get really good before pics and have a better idea what I am in for.
I also really need to build some seat frames to install the 4 bucket seats I have.
the junkyard trip got me a J-code intake which will be nice as I can get rid of the EGR crap
I will be taking some time before I do the actual swap as I want the donor running well and I want to gather parts so I have everything here ready to go.
If I don't end up getting called into work tonight then tomorrow is power washing day for the 70 burb & the donor so I can get really good before pics and have a better idea what I am in for.
I also really need to build some seat frames to install the 4 bucket seats I have.
1leglance
2007 Expedition Trophy Champion, Overland Certifie
Well today was a day to clean up and get an idea of what I am facing with this diesel swap.
This is my NP205 transfer case in the 1970 burb and it is one of the best transfer cases I could have. I was told when I bought the rig that the 350cu engine/Turbo400 trans/NP205 transfer case were all new or freshly rebuilt just a few years back.
Looking at the barcodes and stickers I think it is true.
These two are what is currently behind the donor 6.2 diesel and part of me would like to keep them as overdrive would be nice for all the highway driving we do getting to & from the cool dirt tracks.
NPsomething transfer case & 700r4 overdrive trans
So this is the hacked up mess I power washed and looked over. There are far too many wires unconnected, hoses & ports open and more mouse poop that I want to think about.
Someone took the top off the injection pump, I was able to screw it back on but not sure now if everything is there and hooked up right.
I am not too happy with this hose routing. I will be looking into a better way to do things when I swap the engine over.
Did I mention mouse poop?
This side of the engine isn't as hacked up. But there are still some things to take care of.
This is the hydroboost setup that will go into my old burb. Diesels don't make vacuum like a gasser so you get powersteering pump created hydraulic pressure for the brakes. Not sure about that rubber hose on the lines though?
I think this bit is called a CDR or CDL or something like that. But I think I am missing something?
Throttle cable is all busted up. And there is a bracket above the injector pump that is missing something that looks like it would connect down to the injector pump? Anyone know?
Oh and since it was too cold first thing in the morning to powerwash I fired up the plasma cutter to free this factory grill guard from the massive bits of steel someone welded it too long ago.
And while I didn't get pics of the inside of the donor I did attack it with the shop vac. Other than the front seat belts there isn't much I will be using out of the inside. But there was about a 1/2 bale of hay in there and I wanted to see what was under it all in case I can part the rig out for any $$
This is my NP205 transfer case in the 1970 burb and it is one of the best transfer cases I could have. I was told when I bought the rig that the 350cu engine/Turbo400 trans/NP205 transfer case were all new or freshly rebuilt just a few years back.
Looking at the barcodes and stickers I think it is true.
These two are what is currently behind the donor 6.2 diesel and part of me would like to keep them as overdrive would be nice for all the highway driving we do getting to & from the cool dirt tracks.
NPsomething transfer case & 700r4 overdrive trans
So this is the hacked up mess I power washed and looked over. There are far too many wires unconnected, hoses & ports open and more mouse poop that I want to think about.
Someone took the top off the injection pump, I was able to screw it back on but not sure now if everything is there and hooked up right.
I am not too happy with this hose routing. I will be looking into a better way to do things when I swap the engine over.
Did I mention mouse poop?
This side of the engine isn't as hacked up. But there are still some things to take care of.
This is the hydroboost setup that will go into my old burb. Diesels don't make vacuum like a gasser so you get powersteering pump created hydraulic pressure for the brakes. Not sure about that rubber hose on the lines though?
I think this bit is called a CDR or CDL or something like that. But I think I am missing something?
Throttle cable is all busted up. And there is a bracket above the injector pump that is missing something that looks like it would connect down to the injector pump? Anyone know?
Oh and since it was too cold first thing in the morning to powerwash I fired up the plasma cutter to free this factory grill guard from the massive bits of steel someone welded it too long ago.
And while I didn't get pics of the inside of the donor I did attack it with the shop vac. Other than the front seat belts there isn't much I will be using out of the inside. But there was about a 1/2 bale of hay in there and I wanted to see what was under it all in case I can part the rig out for any $$
1leglance
2007 Expedition Trophy Champion, Overland Certifie
Intercooler.....been thinking about it but honestly I think I will pass.
I don't want to run the enigne hard, I am a 60-65mph guy on the highway and I would rather have a bunch of air for the AC condensor here in the desert than and intercooler.
What I really what to do is fiind a different bit for on top of the plenum and build a snorkle setup. I really like the airbox on the 80 series Landcruisers (nice round can & Toyota makes a water washable filter), put that on the passenger side inner fender by the turbo and I would be set. Just got to take some measurements.
The other option would be to find a flat/square filter I like then build a box for it.
One way or another I will redo the fresh air to turbo to intake pipes as they are just weird.
I don't want to run the enigne hard, I am a 60-65mph guy on the highway and I would rather have a bunch of air for the AC condensor here in the desert than and intercooler.
What I really what to do is fiind a different bit for on top of the plenum and build a snorkle setup. I really like the airbox on the 80 series Landcruisers (nice round can & Toyota makes a water washable filter), put that on the passenger side inner fender by the turbo and I would be set. Just got to take some measurements.
The other option would be to find a flat/square filter I like then build a box for it.
One way or another I will redo the fresh air to turbo to intake pipes as they are just weird.
Rot Box
Explorer
I know what you mean LOL I drive like a grandpa too :sombrero:
Not trying to talk you into anything, but heres my $.02 on intercoolers. I look at them strictly as a reliability upgrade not so much a power adder especially on an Indirect injection diesel. Adding a turbo to an IDI is never a bad idea (imo its a great idea!) but once you do they REALLY start to fluctuate water/engine oil and exhaust temps and you quickly realize the cooling system is now the weak link--Its just the nature of the beast with turbocharged IDI motors. Even if you don't work it hard you will quickly realize how much you actually drive by the coolant temp gauge over any other gauge and how quickly the temperature can get out of hand under the right circumstances. One of the biggest gripes about the 6.2/6.5's isn't necessarily lack of power, its keeping them from cooking themselves from the inside out. Inter-cooling will relieve a huge amount of strain from the motor and will have a huge impact on keeping your exhaust and coolant temps down to a much safer level.
Summer time desert heat + forced induction + IDI + big rig with lots of camping gear + full blast AC = really HOT motor! :coffeedrink:
Not trying to talk you into anything, but heres my $.02 on intercoolers. I look at them strictly as a reliability upgrade not so much a power adder especially on an Indirect injection diesel. Adding a turbo to an IDI is never a bad idea (imo its a great idea!) but once you do they REALLY start to fluctuate water/engine oil and exhaust temps and you quickly realize the cooling system is now the weak link--Its just the nature of the beast with turbocharged IDI motors. Even if you don't work it hard you will quickly realize how much you actually drive by the coolant temp gauge over any other gauge and how quickly the temperature can get out of hand under the right circumstances. One of the biggest gripes about the 6.2/6.5's isn't necessarily lack of power, its keeping them from cooking themselves from the inside out. Inter-cooling will relieve a huge amount of strain from the motor and will have a huge impact on keeping your exhaust and coolant temps down to a much safer level.
Summer time desert heat + forced induction + IDI + big rig with lots of camping gear + full blast AC = really HOT motor! :coffeedrink:
pulltilbroke
Adventurer
The case in that Burb is a 208. Pass side drop 241s were used in 88-91 Burbs and Blazers.
IMO I would use a 241 if you had one layin around. and if you found a 87-93 Dodge 241 I would use the mainshaft and tail housing off that so you'd be able to keep a fixed yoke. Also the 241 has a 2.72-1 low side and is actually stronger than a 205. I know I'm about to get flamed for that one but its true. A 205 has helical cut gears and when torque is applied it creates thrust and the gears try to push away from each other and thats when you start pushing bearing retainers off and if you got enough ooommmppfff under the hood you can split the case.
I don't think the 6.2 could ever make enough power to do that though.
Couple pics of busted 205s
Heres a few from my buddys 1stgen puller
IMO I would use a 241 if you had one layin around. and if you found a 87-93 Dodge 241 I would use the mainshaft and tail housing off that so you'd be able to keep a fixed yoke. Also the 241 has a 2.72-1 low side and is actually stronger than a 205. I know I'm about to get flamed for that one but its true. A 205 has helical cut gears and when torque is applied it creates thrust and the gears try to push away from each other and thats when you start pushing bearing retainers off and if you got enough ooommmppfff under the hood you can split the case.
I don't think the 6.2 could ever make enough power to do that though.
Couple pics of busted 205s
Heres a few from my buddys 1stgen puller
bftank
Explorer
is it just me or does it look like the intake for the compressor on the turbo gets its air from the same place the compressed air goes too, from the exhaust side of the compressor? definitely some hack going on there.
scratch that i went back and looked at it again and figured out what was going on there. regardless that is a lot of tube for the compressor to pull through and you will lose quite a bit of efficiency if it stays that way.
as far as intercoolers go, dodge intercoolers fit nicely from the builds i have seen. however, i would use water meth before i did an intercooler on these. less of a pain.
looks like you have a 700r4 and an np208 backing up the 6.2. the early 700r4 weren't very reliable. watch out for the flexplate cracking around the bolts on the crank. and the trans will most likely need some beefing if you keep it. personally i think you would be better off swapping in an nv4500, but i like my manuals.
this is a sweet project and i look forward to seeing what you do with it.
scratch that i went back and looked at it again and figured out what was going on there. regardless that is a lot of tube for the compressor to pull through and you will lose quite a bit of efficiency if it stays that way.
as far as intercoolers go, dodge intercoolers fit nicely from the builds i have seen. however, i would use water meth before i did an intercooler on these. less of a pain.
looks like you have a 700r4 and an np208 backing up the 6.2. the early 700r4 weren't very reliable. watch out for the flexplate cracking around the bolts on the crank. and the trans will most likely need some beefing if you keep it. personally i think you would be better off swapping in an nv4500, but i like my manuals.
this is a sweet project and i look forward to seeing what you do with it.
Larry
Bigassgas Explorer
I don’t know if I would go as far to say a NP241 is stronger than a NP205, but the NP241 is definitely a good tcase. If I were Lance I would just use the 241 behind the 700R4/6.2L combo. A 241 would be plenty strong enough for that combo and as mentioned, the 241 has a better low range too boot. An 1988 241 will have a cable driven speedo too! I went through a lot of ha$$le to get the 205 to fit behind my NV4500 and I won’t bother doing that again. When my Sub gets a NV4500, I am sticking to a 241 for the ease of the swap and for the better low range.
1leglance
2007 Expedition Trophy Champion, Overland Certifie
Thanks for all the info guys...
On the tcase I will see if I can find a 241 at a decent price so I can keep a fixed yoke. If not then maybe keep the 208 that is already bolted to the 700r and just figure out how to do the slip yoke...plenty of time to research and find parts.
I do plan to take the 700r trans in get it updated & toughened up.
I will look into the intercooler thing a bit more. Lucky for me Nick (Nobin here & mosesburb on the chevy forum) has an intercooler on his cummins powered burb so it is something he knows about.
I wonder if I could mount it above the engine with a cowl induction hood (they already make those for these truck) instead of adding another thing in with the ac condenser & radiator.
Oh and I will be using the 87 donor's radiator & the middle part of it's core support. I bought a 72 chevy core support at the junkyard for $40 do start figuring out how to cut the 2 of them up to get 1 new & improved one
On the tcase I will see if I can find a 241 at a decent price so I can keep a fixed yoke. If not then maybe keep the 208 that is already bolted to the 700r and just figure out how to do the slip yoke...plenty of time to research and find parts.
I do plan to take the 700r trans in get it updated & toughened up.
I will look into the intercooler thing a bit more. Lucky for me Nick (Nobin here & mosesburb on the chevy forum) has an intercooler on his cummins powered burb so it is something he knows about.
I wonder if I could mount it above the engine with a cowl induction hood (they already make those for these truck) instead of adding another thing in with the ac condenser & radiator.
Oh and I will be using the 87 donor's radiator & the middle part of it's core support. I bought a 72 chevy core support at the junkyard for $40 do start figuring out how to cut the 2 of them up to get 1 new & improved one
Larry
Bigassgas Explorer
Lance,
Check that round red tag on your tcase. There is a good chance you already have a 241. I wouldn’t lose sleep over the slip yoke eliminator. Yeah, there cool (just like front Dana 60’s, 205 tcases, chromemoly axle shafts, blah, blah, blah) but in most cases your average wheeler doesn’t need one. Use the tcase that you have (slip yoke and all). If the slip yoke causes an issue then go to an eliminator later. I have no plans to do away with the slip yoke on my Suburban unless it causes issues down the road. I have yet to see a slip yoke cause problems unless the vehicle is a full on rock crawler or flat out abused.
Check that round red tag on your tcase. There is a good chance you already have a 241. I wouldn’t lose sleep over the slip yoke eliminator. Yeah, there cool (just like front Dana 60’s, 205 tcases, chromemoly axle shafts, blah, blah, blah) but in most cases your average wheeler doesn’t need one. Use the tcase that you have (slip yoke and all). If the slip yoke causes an issue then go to an eliminator later. I have no plans to do away with the slip yoke on my Suburban unless it causes issues down the road. I have yet to see a slip yoke cause problems unless the vehicle is a full on rock crawler or flat out abused.
pulltilbroke
Adventurer
Larry, What kinda hassle did you have to go through? I would figure that would have been a very simple straitforward swap. Unless you were using a figure 8 pattern 205
A few things worth mentioning here are the 241 has a pressurized oiling system, 6 pinion planetary set(208s have 4) and like Larry said a GM unit from 88 will have a cable driven speedo.
If you are gonna go buy a 241 I would just pickup a Dodge one and swap a Chevy input into it. In the rare occasion that you might break or bend a rear shaft you will thank yourself when you can just pull it out and limp home on the front end. With the slip yoke style you can't do that without dumpin all the oil out of the tailhousing.
An easy way to I.D. a 241 if the tag is MIA or unreadable is the case will have a raised portion at the drain plug for the oil pump pickup.
My finger is pointing to the raised portion in the 1st pic(This is however a Dodge 241 as you can tell buy the fixed yoke)
Happy swappin:coffeedrink:
A few things worth mentioning here are the 241 has a pressurized oiling system, 6 pinion planetary set(208s have 4) and like Larry said a GM unit from 88 will have a cable driven speedo.
If you are gonna go buy a 241 I would just pickup a Dodge one and swap a Chevy input into it. In the rare occasion that you might break or bend a rear shaft you will thank yourself when you can just pull it out and limp home on the front end. With the slip yoke style you can't do that without dumpin all the oil out of the tailhousing.
An easy way to I.D. a 241 if the tag is MIA or unreadable is the case will have a raised portion at the drain plug for the oil pump pickup.
My finger is pointing to the raised portion in the 1st pic(This is however a Dodge 241 as you can tell buy the fixed yoke)
Happy swappin:coffeedrink:
1leglance
2007 Expedition Trophy Champion, Overland Certifie
so I seem to remember over the years having heard something about "clocking" a tcase to gain some ground clearance.
Is that something I would be able to do?
I really don't like how much lower the tcase hangs vs the rest of the underbelly.
Tomorrow I plan to have another round with the power washer then I will check the tag on the tcase I have (it is an 87 burb after all) to see what it says.
I do like the idea of being able to drop a drive shaft and drive home, but not sure that is worth swap hassles and of course it depends on how much another tcase would cost.
Keep the great info coming as I like the back & forth and it might help someone else down the road.
Is that something I would be able to do?
I really don't like how much lower the tcase hangs vs the rest of the underbelly.
Tomorrow I plan to have another round with the power washer then I will check the tag on the tcase I have (it is an 87 burb after all) to see what it says.
I do like the idea of being able to drop a drive shaft and drive home, but not sure that is worth swap hassles and of course it depends on how much another tcase would cost.
Keep the great info coming as I like the back & forth and it might help someone else down the road.
Larry
Bigassgas Explorer
Yep, that is where the expense and hassle came in. I looked high and low for a 32 spline round pattern 205 for my K10 to no avail and ended up using a figured 8 205 with an Advance Adapter kit and ORD twin stick, as the AA tcase shifter bracket that came with the kit was ridiculously flimsy. The twin stick was the biggest PITA being it was designed for a doubler more than a NV4500/205 swaperoo. As luck would have it, 2 round 205’s popped up on CL after the swap was complete. I would have needed the ORD twin stick with a round 205 as well but I could have saved some $$ on the AA kit. I was tempted to use a 241 just for the ease of the swap but I was worried the 8.1L combined with the weight of the truck/camper would chew it up. On the other hand, when my Sub gets a NV4500 down the road I plan to retain the 32 spline 241 that is in it now. Good info on the 208 vs. 241 quick identification and good argument for using a fixed yoke although I bet you could limp to civilization in fwd with duct tape over the rear tail housing if something bad happened to the driveshaft.