Ambulance Camper/ Expedition Rig Conversion FAQ
- Thread starter flightcancled
- Start date
patoz
Expedition Leader
I believe the available headroom is more related to the manufacture date of the ambulance as per the Federal KKK-1822 and NFPA 1917 Standards vs. the 350/450 load rating, because I have seen both.
Most of the older units made in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, had very little head room, whereas the newer ones allow a 6' man to stand completely upright with no problem.
Most of the older units made in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, had very little head room, whereas the newer ones allow a 6' man to stand completely upright with no problem.
Last edited:
My 1999 medium Medic Master / Freightliner has 72" headroom, but some of the builders went with less. Road Runner is 70". Check the builder's web site for info when you find another. If you wind up with one built by a company that's still around, they can provide a lot of info once you give them the builder's serial number
Abitibi
Explorer
Oh man, that must have been really hard to walk away when you already invested so much time and money in it! How bad was the electrical? I also gutted most of my electrical one I realized how much was useless in our Expo application but I'm the one who did it so I know what came out and what I'm re-using...
Yes, headroom is nice and if you have time and skills there ways around it. Looking at Tony's van and a few other ones another option that might work would be to permanently mount a pickup box on the top and modify the front and rear to smooth the lines. But that's another topic all together.
Don't give up, ambos are plenty. Just gotta wait for the right one, she'll show up!
Yes, headroom is nice and if you have time and skills there ways around it. Looking at Tony's van and a few other ones another option that might work would be to permanently mount a pickup box on the top and modify the front and rear to smooth the lines. But that's another topic all together.
Don't give up, ambos are plenty. Just gotta wait for the right one, she'll show up!
Abitibi
Explorer
mk216v
Der Chef der Fahrzeuge
Correct. Most of the E350/450's Type3's are 72"H(sort of depends on the length), however there are some which have a shorter height module as it seems they were built to be more in-town ambos.
Type3 MiniMod's are usually never 72"H because their module isn't 8' wide like a standard Type3.
Only maybe '07+ Type1 F350/450's are 72"H inside, perhaps due to KKK regulation changes?
patoz
Expedition Leader
I worked part time at EMS up until the mid 80's, and I don't remember ever being able to stand straight up in any of the units we had then, which were both Type I's and Type III's. The ambulance I have now is a 1993 Wheeled Coach E350 Type III, and it only has 66" of head room in it.
But, I figure since 95% of my cooking will be done outside, and I have no shower inside, I won't be standing very much anyway once the conversion is completed. Plus, that's 6" less overall height to deal with when you're off-road in the woods. However with that being said, and if I were given a choice, I would pick one with standing room in it.
Considering what I started with though in 1975, we have definitely come a long ways since then!
But, I figure since 95% of my cooking will be done outside, and I have no shower inside, I won't be standing very much anyway once the conversion is completed. Plus, that's 6" less overall height to deal with when you're off-road in the woods. However with that being said, and if I were given a choice, I would pick one with standing room in it.
Considering what I started with though in 1975, we have definitely come a long ways since then!
Last edited:
Ambulance Interior
Thanks for the inspiration, its a labor of love.
A couple old pictures from mine, I went a different direction, which I haven't seen on here so I thought I would share. When we got it the casework was almost completely gutted, it was being used as an work truck.
Since the picture was taken I added a water tank and a heater and closed in the the under sink area. This one doesn't have a side door which kind of forces the layout to allow full use of the back door.
Ambulances have a couple of things not to be short sold as a starting point are. They generally have floodlights on the exterior, that work really well for setting up camp in the dark. The electrical rough in, if in fair condition, is good for 12 volt camper appliances. We just switched out the IV warmer for a water pump and water heater control circuit. They also have 120v plugs placed around the vehicle which are very convenient. The roof is very strong, so you can hang out up there for better views.
I also was able to secure RV insurance (liability only), with these modifications, which is a 10th of the cost of the commercial coverage I had been quoted.
The biggest downside I have found is towing, it takes a bigger and much more expensive truck then a typical van.
Thanks for the inspiration, its a labor of love.
A couple old pictures from mine, I went a different direction, which I haven't seen on here so I thought I would share. When we got it the casework was almost completely gutted, it was being used as an work truck.
Since the picture was taken I added a water tank and a heater and closed in the the under sink area. This one doesn't have a side door which kind of forces the layout to allow full use of the back door.
Ambulances have a couple of things not to be short sold as a starting point are. They generally have floodlights on the exterior, that work really well for setting up camp in the dark. The electrical rough in, if in fair condition, is good for 12 volt camper appliances. We just switched out the IV warmer for a water pump and water heater control circuit. They also have 120v plugs placed around the vehicle which are very convenient. The roof is very strong, so you can hang out up there for better views.
I also was able to secure RV insurance (liability only), with these modifications, which is a 10th of the cost of the commercial coverage I had been quoted.
The biggest downside I have found is towing, it takes a bigger and much more expensive truck then a typical van.
Sylvanus41
New member
Newbie here. Just read this thread because I bought an 1996 E350 Ambulance today with 79k miles and a McCoy Miller III module.
My first two questions are:
1. How to install windows through the module walls. (I plan to remove the upper cabinets on the driver side for more window space.) Bigger or multiple windows would be preferable. Do I need to worry about wiring? Will the windows need aluminum frames to maintain roof support?
2. Can anyone explain basic step-by-step the electrical system? Like this: electricity in generated by the alternator... and is stored in the battery... and goes through the master kill switch and then the cab control panel and .... or a wiring diagram. And where does the shore hook-up go?
Thanks in advance.
My first two questions are:
1. How to install windows through the module walls. (I plan to remove the upper cabinets on the driver side for more window space.) Bigger or multiple windows would be preferable. Do I need to worry about wiring? Will the windows need aluminum frames to maintain roof support?
2. Can anyone explain basic step-by-step the electrical system? Like this: electricity in generated by the alternator... and is stored in the battery... and goes through the master kill switch and then the cab control panel and .... or a wiring diagram. And where does the shore hook-up go?
Thanks in advance.
patoz
Expedition Leader
First of all, welcome to the forum Sylvanus41, and to the world of private ambulance owners!
I'll try to answer your questions to some extent.
1. Windows - Most of the wiring comes into the module from underneath behind the driver's seat and up to the electrical panels. After it leaves the electrical panels, it travels to the various devices to the rear and sides above the ceiling. Generally, there is a wiring chase on the driver's side in the ceiling that runs from front to back with wiring branching out from it, similar to nerves coming out of your backbone. There will be some wires in the wall, but normally only if there is a device needing power in that space, either inside or outside.
The walls are constructed out of 2"x2" extruded aluminum square tubing, covered by 1/8" aluminum sheeting on the outside, and since your's is a 1996 model, probably 3/16" or 1/4" paneling on the inside. The tubing is arranged in a grid pattern on 14" or 16" centers. It is designed this way because this frame also functions as a roll cage in case the unit flips over in an accident. According to the government regulations, that frame is supposed to be able to support the entire weight of the ambulance with it sitting on it's top. As far as removing any of the frame to mount windows, I would make my cuts and try to add and/or reposition the frame members to form a box around the window, which most of them will require anyway. Then add vertical pieces to maintain the structural integrity.
Here are a few pictures of another brand in the construction phase to help you understand. Note the grommets in the tubing anywhere wires must pass through. These are often sealed with silicone also, which makes moving or pulling additional wires almost impossible unless you have the walls open.
2. Electrical System - This one is not so easy. This topic has been discussed many times on this forum by ambulance owners, to one extent or another. To my knowledge, this information is not in any one place either. All wiring is done to meet specific codes, regulations, and requirements, but each manufacturer is slightly different. Your best bet is to contact the manufacturer and see if they can provide you with a wiring diagram of some sort. Being it's a 1996 model, that may be difficult since their records may not have been computerized yet. Your second best bet is to look in the Other Custom Expedition Camper section, where all of the ambulance builds are, and find one with a unit similar to yours. You may find answers in their build thread or you can ask them for help.
There are a lot of us on here that are fairly knowledgeable about the electrical systems on ambulances, but to write a complete step by step manual on how they are wired is impossible. That's what electrical engineers are for.
I'll see what I can find and get back to you in a few days.
After I first started building mine, one of the things I found that helps, is to take good quality pictures of everything both inside and out, and include detailed pictures also. Not only does this help you reassemble something after you take it apart, it gives you ready access to pictures to include in a post when you're asking a question about something at 11:00 pm. and it's raining outside.
Looking forward to seeing some pictures of your rig after you get your build thread started!
~Pat
I'll try to answer your questions to some extent.
1. Windows - Most of the wiring comes into the module from underneath behind the driver's seat and up to the electrical panels. After it leaves the electrical panels, it travels to the various devices to the rear and sides above the ceiling. Generally, there is a wiring chase on the driver's side in the ceiling that runs from front to back with wiring branching out from it, similar to nerves coming out of your backbone. There will be some wires in the wall, but normally only if there is a device needing power in that space, either inside or outside.
The walls are constructed out of 2"x2" extruded aluminum square tubing, covered by 1/8" aluminum sheeting on the outside, and since your's is a 1996 model, probably 3/16" or 1/4" paneling on the inside. The tubing is arranged in a grid pattern on 14" or 16" centers. It is designed this way because this frame also functions as a roll cage in case the unit flips over in an accident. According to the government regulations, that frame is supposed to be able to support the entire weight of the ambulance with it sitting on it's top. As far as removing any of the frame to mount windows, I would make my cuts and try to add and/or reposition the frame members to form a box around the window, which most of them will require anyway. Then add vertical pieces to maintain the structural integrity.
Here are a few pictures of another brand in the construction phase to help you understand. Note the grommets in the tubing anywhere wires must pass through. These are often sealed with silicone also, which makes moving or pulling additional wires almost impossible unless you have the walls open.
2. Electrical System - This one is not so easy. This topic has been discussed many times on this forum by ambulance owners, to one extent or another. To my knowledge, this information is not in any one place either. All wiring is done to meet specific codes, regulations, and requirements, but each manufacturer is slightly different. Your best bet is to contact the manufacturer and see if they can provide you with a wiring diagram of some sort. Being it's a 1996 model, that may be difficult since their records may not have been computerized yet. Your second best bet is to look in the Other Custom Expedition Camper section, where all of the ambulance builds are, and find one with a unit similar to yours. You may find answers in their build thread or you can ask them for help.
There are a lot of us on here that are fairly knowledgeable about the electrical systems on ambulances, but to write a complete step by step manual on how they are wired is impossible. That's what electrical engineers are for.
I'll see what I can find and get back to you in a few days.After I first started building mine, one of the things I found that helps, is to take good quality pictures of everything both inside and out, and include detailed pictures also. Not only does this help you reassemble something after you take it apart, it gives you ready access to pictures to include in a post when you're asking a question about something at 11:00 pm. and it's raining outside.
Looking forward to seeing some pictures of your rig after you get your build thread started!
~Pat
rlrenz
Explorer
Welcome to the Wonderful World of ambulance conversions!
If you do some digging at ambulance manufacturer's web sites, you'll find some photos that show typical construction. An ambulance is built like the proverbial brick phone booth, with vertical 2x2 tubing about every foot along walls, and 2x2 tubing running horizontally about every foot as well. The outside skin is usually 0.10 (1/10)" thick, and is normally welded to the 2x2 framing. All of this is to meet the requirements for structural strength in the event of a rollover accident. The wall may be insulated with fiberglass batts, reflective insulation, or urethane spray foam.
With this kind of framing, cutting a hole for a window shouldn't require any framing reinforcement. You may need to epoxy something into the exposed apace to anchor the window frame to, though.
Wiring might be there, but generally, wiring in an ambulance module (the ambulance portion of the vehicle) runs along the top of the walls just below the roof. It is accessed through the holes that were cut for the various external lights. If you see any receptacles below the area you plan to install windows, there may be a cable running down through the wall. DC wiring is usually just as wires, and 115 volt wiring is often run with commercial power cord through convoluted tubing.
Here's a photo of the interior of MNtal's ambulance - note the wiring and structural details:
All the wiring (and any oxygen lines) will be run through convoluted tubing.
The electrical system on an ambulance follows the requirements of KKK-A-1822E. This federal specification for the Star of Life ambulance was gospel for ambulance manufacturers, and for buyers who wanted to qualify for any grants to purchase ambulances. It has since been superseded by NFPA 1917-13, but any used ambulance would have been built to the 1822 standard. You can download a copy of 1822 easily through an internet search.
This schematic shows the basic electrical system, however there are always changes. Generally, all the power to the module runs through the module master switch, though you may find an always live terminal block in the module's electrical cabinet. Radio circuits can also be always live.
McCoy may be able to provide you with some electrical information if you have the McCoy serial number available.
The shore power inlet can be anywhere from 15 - 30 amps, though 15-20 amps are the most common. The inlet generally feeds the Vanner inverter/charger, and possibly a few non-critical receptacles in the module. The output from the Vanner feeds critical receptacles, usually one or more near the action station, and generally one for the defibrillator. In my own ambulance, it also supplied 115 volt power to a pair of quartz floodlights.
The Vanner inverter/charger will pick up the load instantly when the shore power is disconnected (if the Vanner is turned on, usually with a module switch). The maximum input for the usual 1050 watt-rated Vanner is about 100 amps, so the ambulance needs to be in high-idle mode if the Vanner will be supplying power for very long.
rlrenz
Explorer
Pat and I have been bouncing ideas and questions/thoughts off each other for a long time, but I have to also emphasize what he said - take LOTS of photos when you are doing anything to your buggy.
Regarding electrical, even though every builder has to meet the same standards, they all put their own spin on how to do it. Thankfully, wiring us usually imprinted with a wire number along it's length (unless the module was rewired along the way), so every time you open something up, take photos of the wiring and jot down any wire ID numbers and where they are going to or from. If you are incredibly lucky, you may be able to get electrical information from the builder, or the original owner may still have the manual on a shelf.
In my own case, I took photos of the electrical panel for the module, and lots of notes. The wire ID numbers & labels let me figure out what did what in the panel.
Unfortunately, though - every manufacturer had their own color codes for wiring, so a blue (HVAC system) wire on a Medic Master might mean ceiling lights on another manufacturer's module.
The other small bit of good news is that chances are that the same electricians at the builder wired ambulances about the same way, so there should be some commonality from ambulance to ambulance. If you can find electrical data from another McCoy ambulance of about the same date, it should be very similar.
Regarding electrical, even though every builder has to meet the same standards, they all put their own spin on how to do it. Thankfully, wiring us usually imprinted with a wire number along it's length (unless the module was rewired along the way), so every time you open something up, take photos of the wiring and jot down any wire ID numbers and where they are going to or from. If you are incredibly lucky, you may be able to get electrical information from the builder, or the original owner may still have the manual on a shelf.
In my own case, I took photos of the electrical panel for the module, and lots of notes. The wire ID numbers & labels let me figure out what did what in the panel.
Unfortunately, though - every manufacturer had their own color codes for wiring, so a blue (HVAC system) wire on a Medic Master might mean ceiling lights on another manufacturer's module.
The other small bit of good news is that chances are that the same electricians at the builder wired ambulances about the same way, so there should be some commonality from ambulance to ambulance. If you can find electrical data from another McCoy ambulance of about the same date, it should be very similar.
patoz
Expedition Leader
Thanks Bob, for jumping in here! I was about brain dead at 2 am last night, and knew I would leave a lot out like the labeling of the wires.
There is one other word of caution and/or advise I would like to enter here. I've seen people on other ambulance builds either state they are, or ask if they should, just rip all of the OEM wiring out and start over, because they think they won't 'need' a lot of it. My advice is...Absolutely Not! Just because you don't understand it at the present doesn't mean you won't, or have a use for it later. A lot of highly paid engineers and electricians went to a lot of trouble and effort to install the best and safest system possible in your unit, using the best quality components available at the time. Unless you're a licensed electrician or have some very good electrician skills, nothing you put in there is going to be as good as what you tear out.
A lot of this wiring travels through areas you don't have access to unless you have gutted the module and have completely opened the ceiling and walls. As you build, you project will change and grow, especially after you have actually used it in the field a few times. So when it comes time to add or modify components, you can most likely just repurpose circuits that are already in place. If you remove an ambulance component that you know will not be used for sure, like the vacuum pump, label the wires as to what they went to, especially if they are not already stamped as to the purpose. If you disconnect a wire in the panel box so you can use the breaker position for something else, label what that wire went to for future use.
OK, I'm getting off my soapbox now and going to go work on mine some.
Later...
There is one other word of caution and/or advise I would like to enter here. I've seen people on other ambulance builds either state they are, or ask if they should, just rip all of the OEM wiring out and start over, because they think they won't 'need' a lot of it. My advice is...Absolutely Not! Just because you don't understand it at the present doesn't mean you won't, or have a use for it later. A lot of highly paid engineers and electricians went to a lot of trouble and effort to install the best and safest system possible in your unit, using the best quality components available at the time. Unless you're a licensed electrician or have some very good electrician skills, nothing you put in there is going to be as good as what you tear out.
A lot of this wiring travels through areas you don't have access to unless you have gutted the module and have completely opened the ceiling and walls. As you build, you project will change and grow, especially after you have actually used it in the field a few times. So when it comes time to add or modify components, you can most likely just repurpose circuits that are already in place. If you remove an ambulance component that you know will not be used for sure, like the vacuum pump, label the wires as to what they went to, especially if they are not already stamped as to the purpose. If you disconnect a wire in the panel box so you can use the breaker position for something else, label what that wire went to for future use.
OK, I'm getting off my soapbox now and going to go work on mine some.
Later...
rlrenz
Explorer
Amen, Pat.
It's a lot easier to just yank everything out than it is to reinstall what shouldn't have been removed. As they say: "Make haste slowly..." Somethings are obvious - like the suction pump that Pat referenced - but leave the wiring with a tag for ID, because you might have to power something in the future that could have used the wires you yanked out (and to replace them will take a major effort).
As they say - the wires aren't eating anything, they don't cost a cent to leave where they are...
.
It's a lot easier to just yank everything out than it is to reinstall what shouldn't have been removed. As they say: "Make haste slowly..." Somethings are obvious - like the suction pump that Pat referenced - but leave the wiring with a tag for ID, because you might have to power something in the future that could have used the wires you yanked out (and to replace them will take a major effort).
As they say - the wires aren't eating anything, they don't cost a cent to leave where they are...
.