Anti gun legislation

[Scott Brady]

Although I seriously doubt the OPFOR scenario you described is foremost on the liberals' minds...

I can assure you it is in the forefront of their minds today. Not a single person in that crowd was armed other than the assailant.

 

[tdesanto]

I think it is perfectly reasonable for a person to dislike guns and even want to live in a society with limitations on gun ownership. However, that is not America. The right to bear arms is a component of our freedoms as citizens. It is just a fact. When I travel to the UK, I do not judge the English for the severity of their gun laws. Those laws were put into effect by a majority action of the citizenry. It was the will of the majority of people in the UK and it was voted into action. In the US, our government has the responsibility to uphold and protect the constitution in its entirety. It is our job as citizens to hold our government accountable to those ideals.

If you look at the number of conservatives who own firearms it is perfectly understandable why liberals would want to control or reduce that number. There is a distinct division of ideals in America today, yet one side is armed to the teeth. There is no great mystery here. . .

Scott, I think you're right, there is a serious division between the two camps in our society. The part I still cannot understand is the fear many have of those who legally and responsibly own firearms. Those who are afraid of gun owners should think carefully about what they are afraid of. They should more correctly be afraid of those who are criminals or who are or will attempt to commit crimes, and not the rest of us.

It seems that they are afraid of the guns themselves and not specifically afraid of the criminals instead.

 

[Scott Brady]

It seems that they are afraid of the guns themselves and not specifically afraid of the criminals instead.

That is exactly what it is Tony.

Like almost everything in human life, it is about control. Control is exerted in society through a thousand different methods. For many people that are anti-gun, weapons elicit fear and define a shift in physical power (control).

It is the same with many things. There are conservatives that hate Mexicans and Mexico. They are fearful of the lack of control at our borders. They have never visited Mexico yet they fear it/them, they speak out against the unknown. Guns for some liberals, Mexico for some conservatives. Both fears are born out of ignorance and as a result the fearful lack actual experience from which to form logical opinion and facilitate logical behavior.

In my opinion, ignorance is the greatest threat to America. People on both ends of the ticket are plagued by it. They only expose themselves to the rhetoric of the people that claim to address their fears. In the meantime, the globe has moved on- they have stolen the cheese.

 

[Metcalf]

Not a single person in that crowd was armed other than the assailant.

Wasn't there a CCW person that was coming out of the store, heard shots, and went toward the incident?

 

[Scott Brady]

Wasn't there a CCW person that was coming out of the store, heard shots, and went toward the incident?

My inference was too subtle, sorry.

There were none of the representatives supporters in the crowd that were armed/CCW. There did happen to be a citizen who was a patron of the store nearby that had a gun/CCW and rushed out towards the crowd prepared to act.

And yes, that adds even further to the irony of it all.

 

[ignorant]

That is exactly what it is Tony.

Like almost everything in human life, it is about control. Control is exerted in society through a thousand different methods. For many people that are anti-gun, weapons elicit fear and define a shift in physical power (control).

It is the same with many things. There are conservatives that hate Mexicans and Mexico. They are fearful of the lack of control at our borders. They have never visited Mexico yet they fear it/them, they speak out against the unknown. Guns for some liberals, Mexico for some conservatives. Both fears are born out of ignorance and as a result the fearful lack actual experience from which to form logical opinion and facilitate logical behavior.

In my opinion, ignorance is the greatest threat to America. People on both ends of the ticket are plagued by it. They only expose themselves to the rhetoric of the people that claim to address their fears. In the meantime, the globe has moved on- they have stolen the cheese.

Fear, Is the biggest driver of all. Very good post. Thanks.

In general, I think that fear has been playing too great of role in all our lives recently and fanned too much by the great talking heads on both sides.

 

[Christophe Noel]

The part I still cannot understand is the fear many have of those who legally and responsibly own firearms. Those who are afraid of gun owners should think carefully about what they are afraid of.

I don't lump all gun owners together.

I can speak to this as someone who will never carry a gun of any sort. It's not about the guns themselves. It's not about limiting anyone's constitutional rights. It's really about that singular word you used - responsibility. It's obvious the constitution doesn't spell out the details of gun ownership, but a smart society would, and does, put certain perameters on that ownership for the greater good. This is why we're not allowed to have an RPG hanging in our truck window next to the Sidewinder missile launcher. Same reason even the most staunch gun advocates don't think it appropriate certain individuals be allowed to carry. Someone with a defined mental instability shouldn't be in possession of a gun, and some of them are as American as Yanky Doodle himself. What about their constitutional rights, versus their ability to be responsible?

I'm not a fan of guns, but I'm a fan of an individual's LEGAL right to be able to carry one if it makes them feel safe, or even if they just want to. As a citizen on the street with those people, I'd just prefer they have proper training to responsibly carry and use that gun. Most gun owners I meet are very passionate about their rights to carry, and would easily pass any training or test with flying colors. The DMV checks your vision and driving acumen before you take to the streets in a feeble, but helpful, effort to make sure you're safe to drive. I'd like to know that gun owners are mandated to go through even the most basic training so they too are safe...er. Safer.

If nothing else, I'd prefer to see a strong and healthy gun community that can proudly say they not only have a given right to carry, but they've proven themselves capable to do so. That wouldn't leave much room to even threaten to take those guns away.

 

[LACamper]

Xatic: A severely depressed person doesn't pose an immediate threat to himself or society by way of his speech or religious beliefs. A severely depressed person with a gun is a bad combination and can pose an immediate threat.

If someone is too depressed to own a weapon, then they are also too depressed to be driving, or even functioning in society. (BTW, gun ownership is a RIGHT, driving is merely a state allowed PRIVLEDGE). They should be institutionalized. Call the men in white coats...

 

[Scott Brady]

Proficiency and training should be at the forefront of a gun carrying citizens mind. Even thirty years ago it was, as there was a culture of mentorship and accountability. Fathers spent time showing their sons how to shoot, safely handle a weapon, clean it, care for it. Now, people just like the idea of owning a gun, but most are too lazy to achieve any excellence in operating it. . .

Sorry to sound cynical.

 

[C-Fish]

I don't lump all gun owners together.

I can speak to this as someone who will never carry a gun of any sort. It's not about the guns themselves. It's not about limiting anyone's constitutional rights. It's really about that singular word you used - responsibility. It's obvious the constitution doesn't spell out the details of gun ownership, but a smart society would, and does, put certain perameters on that ownership for the greater good. This is why we're not allowed to have an RPG hanging in our truck window next to the Sidewinder missile launcher. Same reason even the most staunch gun advocates don't think it appropriate certain individuals be allowed to carry. Someone with a defined mental instability shouldn't be in possession of a gun, and some of them are as American as Yanky Doodle himself. What about their constitutional rights, versus their ability to be responsible?

I'm not a fan of guns, but I'm a fan of an individual's LEGAL right to be able to carry one if it makes them feel safe, or even if they just want to. As a citizen on the street with those people, I'd just prefer they have proper training to responsibly carry and use that gun. Most gun owners I meet are very passionate about their rights to carry, and would easily pass any training or test with flying colors. The DMV checks your vision and driving acumen before you take to the streets in a feeble, but helpful, effort to make sure you're safe to drive. I'd like to know that gun owners are mandated to go through even the most basic training so they too are safe...er. Safer.

If nothing else, I'd prefer to see a strong and healthy gun community that can proudly say they not only have a given right to carry, but they've proven themselves capable to do so. That wouldn't leave much room to even threaten to take those guns away.

I like how you edited out the birthright comment before I could quote you...

The DMV checks your vision and provides a driving test because driving is a privilege, not a right...

Like it or not, firearm ownership in the USA is a birthright.

One that ALL of it's citizens should embrace and become familiar with.

Training should be done by parents, scouts, schools, brownies, churches, Women's groups, Men's groups, ETC...This would help curb Hoplophobia.

You're not afraid of a staple gun are you???

I'm not proposing that every citizen should carry, have you seen some of the drivers on the road?

Let the sheepdogs carry to protect the sheep. The sheep need not question the sheepdogs methods, only acknowledge their existence.

 

[MP@HOME]

CCW Permit holder are already proven as some of the most law abiding
people,when have you heard of a permit holder robbing a bank? or
pulling the gun and start shooting at a crowd of people ?
also mentally disabled are already prohibited from owning firearms ,same
thing for criminals or parolees.

 

[xtatik]

It seems that they are afraid of the guns themselves and not specifically afraid of the criminals instead.

I think they fear both nearly equally. I think the prolific nature of gun ownership is the primary issue they worry about, and how easily guns find their way into the wrong hands. No doubt, there are those who will illogically fear the gun. But, when you actually take the time to engage most of these people in discussion you'll realize that they are very aware that the gun is an inert and inanimate mechanism. They can actually grasp that thought if the issue approached properly. I think what they generally fear is the proliferation of ownership. They have a reasonable idea of how many differing types of people can simply obtain guns. They know all of these people will have differing demeanors. But, of all these things, what they know and believe with certainty is that some people will responsibly own and manage their guns, and some won't. It's the latter group they fear nearly as much as the criminal, and knowing we humans are fallible, I'm not qualified to say that this isn't an unrealistic fear.
Some of the comments here could easily be described as hardliner pro-gun rhetoric. This rhetoric, along with uneducated comments regarding the functions of our Constitution are not the way to approach or impress upon those who are trying to understand why we choose to own and enjoy our guns. They need to know we are a better reasoned group that is willing to discuss the issue rather than than begin a tirade of tired mantras and soapbox our position without listening to their concerns. When someone is attempting to win me over to a school of thought, I don't want to hear a bunch of rhetoric. I want to hear why that individual feels the way they do, and I want to hear it in their own words.

 

[xtatik]

:wavey: What if we think both sides are wrong and we keep getting caught between?


Although I seriously doubt the OPFOR scenario you described is foremost on the liberals' minds...



God Bless America! Where we have the right to debate this openly, point fingers, and bicker, but then band together when it really matters. Lets not forget that both liberals and conservatives have died for that.

^I agree, all points.

 

[tdesanto]

...but most are too lazy to achieve any excellence in operating it. . .

Sounds similar to the CB versus HAM discussion.

...Most gun owners I meet are very passionate about their rights to carry...

I think this is the case because they feel that they are constantly having to defend that right. Just as the anti-gun establisment is afraid of guns, the pro-gun establishment is afraid that the right or rights (one at a time...as in Chicago) will one day be taken away.

Overall, it sounds like you're not afraid of guns, but afraid of knuckleheads. If I read you right, then it's hard to argue with you on that. I don't like knuckleheaded, irresponsible, lazy people either who aren't willing to get the proper training and put in the practice time. In fact, no matter how much I might go to the range I have never felt like I've had too much practice.

 

[Christophe Noel]

I like how you edited out the birthright comment before I could quote you...
.

Sorry. I took that out to clarify my point, not retract anything. I'll use that word again here. I honor an individual's birthright to own a gun, but simply being born within a set of borders does not inherently bestow that individual with the ability to safely own and use said gun. That has to be learned.