Any built 300tdi D1 owners here?

[Red90]

And it has already been done by LR in Australia.

It does not make it much easier as LRA used some custom parts that are no longer available. Plus or minus either engine is going to be the same amount of work.

Using a Rover engine is substantial less work and they can put out more than adequate power. The TD5 is a decent choice these days. It is very reliable and tuneable to very good power numbers.

 

[piper109]

I would suggest the DCControl setup. The 2 speed controller is a good price and does everything you need (including AC operation) in one high quality sealed package.

http://www.dccontrol.com/fancontrol.htm

Thanks I will look into that.

 

[David Harris]

The TD5 is a decent choice these days. It is very reliable and tuneable to very good power numbers.

I've heard that this motor has issues with electronics reliability. Can anyone confirm this? The basic motor seems to be good. However, because it was designed as a car motor, it develops it's power higher in the rev range, which makes it faster on the road, but not as suited to off-road use as the 300 Tdi.

 

[Red90]

I have not heard of these problems.

Fit a VNT turbo, tune it and they are perfect for a truck. Really all turbo diesels should have a VNT.

What makes you think it is designed as a car motor?? I thought it was a complete Rover design for the Rover trucks.

 

[piper109]

I don't know about your running weight, but my Disco will be a three-ton rolling beast in expedition trim. I can put that heavy duty 1 ton rated power plant to good use. In the UK, enthusiasts are constantly looking for more powerful alternatives to the 300 Tdi. It is actually common to swap diesels for V8's there. The 300 Tdi into a NAS V8 Disco is easier than other swaps, but it is not a simple bolt in anyway. The transmission and engine mounts have to be changed and the NAS lacks the proper provisions for the diesel trans mount.

Just for the record, the 300tdi transmission mounts (D1) are a cross member that bolts in place of the NAS cross member. Its a simple swap and uses mounting holes which are already in the chassis.
The engine mounts do need to be changed. The V8 mounts need to be removed and the 300tdi mounts welded in place further back. That is the only part of the engine/transmission swap that is not simple wrenching.

I took a RHD manual pedal cluster and removed part of the pedal pivots and grafted them onto a LHD automatic cluster. It was about one hours metalwork. I could have just used a '95 Disco pedal cluster with the clutch pedal but it was much cheaper to modify the cluster I already had to do the same thing.
Rads are different but the rad/intercooler assembly drops into the same mountings as the NAS V8 mounts to.

Electrically the only complication is making the a/c operate without the engine ECU. I did modify the belt assembly to use the V8 compressor so my belt is now longer than the standard 300tdi serpentine belt. I also replaced the 65 amp Marelli alternator with a 100 amp Saturn alternator after swapping the pulleys.

Perhaps it has a bit less power than the Isuzu engine but its an easy swap and if you are resourceful it can be quite cheap to do in comparison.
Tweaks on the IP make the standard D1 quite acceptable.
I can cruise at 75 on the freeway (a/c on) and I get 450 miles to the tank.
I should add that I am not planning any expeditions. I just live in the mountains where there are lots of dirt roads and I have to drag trees off my property.

Steve

 

[David Harris]

I have not heard of these problems.

Fit a VNT turbo, tune it and they are perfect for a truck. Really all turbo diesels should have a VNT.

What makes you think it is designed as a car motor?? I thought it was a complete Rover design for the Rover trucks.

To my knowledge, in the 1990's Rover Group was looking to design a new line of diesel engines which could be used in cars and trucks, and which could meet the new, more stringent emissions requirements coming into force. The result was project STORM. A line of diesels in 4, 5, and 6 cylinders with displacements of 2, 2.5 and 3.0 L respectively. Land Rover was to be given responsibility for producing these engines for the entire Rover line. When BMW took over, it brought its own diesel line in and the STORM series was redundant. However, BMW took the 5 cylinder version of the STORM and finished development of it for the new Discovery, and eventually fit it to the Defender as well. Thus, it is not a BMW car engine as so many mistake it, but rather derives from a dual use platform already under development by Rover Group and to be produced by the Land Rover subsidiary. That's all I know. I'm sure there are many others on here with more knowledge of its lineage than me.

The TD5 has many pluses over the 300 Tdi, such as greater displacement and power, chain instead of belt timing arrangement, and more tunability. However, in my opinion the electronic nature of the engine makes it weaker for out and out off-road use, if only by virtue of the fact that once again computers are required to run it and computers/sensors don't like water. Nor do they like dusty conditions, such as in the Sahara, where everything electronic in vehicles doesn't last long without malfunction. I think if the TD5 were put through the kind of use the 300 Tdi were in the Camel Trophy, they would have broken down not long from the start.

 

[Nonimouse]

" In the UK, enthusiasts are constantly looking for more powerful alternatives to the 300 Tdi. It is actually common to swap diesels for V8's there."

Not in the UK I live in

The only time you will find this is with challenge vehicles where an auto is more desireable and the higher rev range of the V8 is better. The V8 in question is usually a one off motor or from a sports car like a TVR.

The number of overlanders that go for the V8 can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Simply down to the lack of range

The 300Tdi is almost a religion over here. Few worry about the belt - it's easy to change. Halving the timescale is the preffered option. A belt is far more forgiving if you hydraulic the lump...

Getting power and torque out of 300's is easy so that's the route we take.

Change the turbo, re-bores, big 'coolers, decent injectors, dumping the EGR, propane, fuel additives, buio fuel - all easy fixes. Maybe not as easy as the 200Tdi but almost.

The Isuzu lump is fine on a manual box - LT95 or LT85 so isn't that difficult a fix but it's so damn heavy. You need to beef up the axles as well; even on a Salisbury; it's only really a Defender upgrade. Same thing goes for the Nissan FD3.5

If you need to but a Isuzu lump in your Disco then might be better to lose weight first or look to your gears. A D1 300Tdi in stock form with an R380 with all the basic kit will cruise at 80mph, down to 75 on the hills....

Best bet would be a nice re-build, VNT, propane, extra core on the rad, etc. Allisport do a nice 'cooler that fits in the stock place but cools 60% more than stock - I have one on my 110 - so no rad blockage

Don't forget the 1.66:1 T box by the way

As for Td5's. Great engine. Never intended for car use, designed for Defender and Disco. Easy to work on with a Rovacom - a fitters engine not a mechanics lump. Well serviced = nice and reliable. Easy to tune with a re-map. Won't run on veg or crap diesel though

 

[Viggen]

Land Rover was to be given responsibility for producing these engines for the entire Rover line. When BMW took over, it brought its own diesel line in and the STORM series was redundant... However, BMW took the 5 cylinder version of the STORM and finished development of it for the new Discovery, and eventually fit it to the Defender as well.

However, in my opinion the electronic nature of the engine makes it weaker for out and out off-road use, if only by virtue of the fact that once again computers are required to run it and computers/sensors don't like water. Nor do they like dusty conditions, such as in the Sahara, where everything electronic in vehicles doesn't last long without malfunction.

So, the TD5 is not a car motor as you previously stated and do you live in the Sahara or an area where you are constantly crossing water? I live on the east coast where sand isnt a problem, water crossings arent too common and if I can hold 65 mph, Im happy. I love watching the old Camel Trophy videos as much as the next guy but what they ran there isnt necessarily what I want in real life.

A built 300tdi, as you can see by the responses, is more than enough to move a built Disco through an overland situation and down the road. If you have access to a diesel that will all but basically bolt in to an existing frame, has a good following and has enough power and returns good economy for vehicles such as ours, why would you want to choose a motor that does not fit, requires much fabrication and a mix of parts from different manufacturers, will increase the nose heaviness of the truck and one that will require thousands of dollars upgrading axles? Thats the part I dont get.

Again, reading forums about specific motors or cars is a bad way to get information. The reason is why people go onto forums in the first place. You get on forums to find answers to problems so an outside person who might have no actual experience, walks away with the impression that the motor or car is terrible.

 

[David Harris]

" In the UK, enthusiasts are constantly looking for more powerful alternatives to the 300 Tdi. It is actually common to swap diesels for V8's there."

Not in the UK I live in

The only time you will find this is with challenge vehicles where an auto is more desireable and the higher rev range of the V8 is better. The V8 in question is usually a one off motor or from a sports car like a TVR.

The number of overlanders that go for the V8 can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Simply down to the lack of range

The 300Tdi is almost a religion over here. Few worry about the belt - it's easy to change. Halving the timescale is the preffered option. A belt is far more forgiving if you hydraulic the lump...

Getting power and torque out of 300's is easy so that's the route we take.

Change the turbo, re-bores, big 'coolers, decent injectors, dumping the EGR, propane, fuel additives, buio fuel - all easy fixes. Maybe not as easy as the 200Tdi but almost.

The Isuzu lump is fine on a manual box - LT95 or LT85 so isn't that difficult a fix but it's so damn heavy. You need to beef up the axles as well; even on a Salisbury; it's only really a Defender upgrade. Same thing goes for the Nissan FD3.5

If you need to but a Isuzu lump in your Disco then might be better to lose weight first or look to your gears. A D1 300Tdi in stock form with an R380 with all the basic kit will cruise at 80mph, down to 75 on the hills....

Best bet would be a nice re-build, VNT, propane, extra core on the rad, etc. Allisport do a nice 'cooler that fits in the stock place but cools 60% more than stock - I have one on my 110 - so no rad blockage

Don't forget the 1.66:1 T box by the way

As for Td5's. Great engine. Never intended for car use, designed for Defender and Disco. Easy to work on with a Rovacom - a fitters engine not a mechanics lump. Well serviced = nice and reliable. Easy to tune with a re-map. Won't run on veg or crap diesel though

Great info here. Thanks!

Hard to believe your cruising hills at 75, though. Of course those are UK hills, aren't they? I just took my V8 Disco through the passes in Colorado, and at the top of Wolf Creek, I was down to 35 mph. Even in rolling Missouri, I had the throttle down pretty hard to maintain small hills at 65. Of course that's with a thousand pounds of people and gear aboard. The V8 is more powerful than the 300 Tdi as well. I do have slighter larger tires and stock gears though, so regearing would help. The V8 is a great engine, but, as you say, the range just isn't there, and carrying all the extra fuel involved isn't the most efficient way to deal with it. As far as losing weight on a Disco, the truck starts out at 4400 pounds without anything in it. Put people, some luggage and emergency gear in there and you're easily to 5K, and my Disco doesn't have a roof rack, heavy bumpers, winch, skid plates, etc. Load up with extra fuel and water in addition to these and 3 tons is the norm. The Defender benefits from being lighter though (which, from your remarks I assume you're driving yourself), and I'm seriously considering just getting one to build up instead of my Disco.

BTW: Educate me on "halving the timescale." Does modding the 300 Tdi to that degree decrease its reliability at all? My goal is a vehicle I can drive around the world in one push, so reliability is even more important than power considerations.

 

[David Harris]

So, the TD5 is not a car motor as you previously stated and do you live in the Sahara or an area where you are constantly crossing water? I live on the east coast where sand isnt a problem, water crossings arent too common and if I can hold 65 mph, Im happy. I love watching the old Camel Trophy videos as much as the next guy but what they ran there isnt necessarily what I want in real life.

A built 300tdi, as you can see by the responses, is more than enough to move a built Disco through an overland situation and down the road. If you have access to a diesel that will all but basically bolt in to an existing frame, has a good following and has enough power and returns good economy for vehicles such as ours, why would you want to choose a motor that does not fit, requires much fabrication and a mix of parts from different manufacturers, will increase the nose heaviness of the truck and one that will require thousands of dollars upgrading axles? Thats the part I dont get.

Again, reading forums about specific motors or cars is a bad way to get information. The reason is why people go onto forums in the first place. You get on forums to find answers to problems so an outside person who might have no actual experience, walks away with the impression that the motor or car is terrible.

I apologize if I offended you about your choice. If the 300 Tdi meets your needs, then that's fine. I am planning on taking my vehicle around the world, with all of the varied conditions that involves, so I am just tossing around pluses and minuses here and exploring alternatives. I think the discussion has produced more good information on both sides than not, so that's great for all concerned. I think reading forums about specific motors or cars is a good way to get information, though. You just have to weigh everything yourself and get multiple points of view on anything.

Cheers,

David

 

[Nonimouse]

David

Have you ever visited this little country of ours? We do have hills you know. In fact we pretty much invented hills. We have high passes and low passes and medium passes. We have mountains, tors, fells, peaks, caers and mynydd. We do up and downs - this is not Holland

Our proximity to Europe give us a whole shed load more up and down stuff - no doubt you have heard of the Alps or the Pyrenees amongst others. Europe even has the original Sierra Nevada

Our D1's or Discovery 1's as we call them weigh in at 1900kgs for a five door unladed so that makes 4,180 English Pounds. Are your pounds smaller like your gallons? I can't remember as it's years since I lived State Side.

We are also lucky because our Diesel has a higher calorific value than yours - I have no idea why. Maybe it's because we have so many hills. SO not only do we get more mileage per gallon (and bigger gallons) but we get more power out of the box. Lucky us. You have much better dental care in the US so I think it's a good trade off; and your fast food is so much better; as are your Deserts (ours are mainly cultural not physical). You have nice trees as well. And beach volley ball.... Sorry I'm drifting - must be the altitude

I don't live on a hill - well not a big hill anyway. I'm 12meters above sea level - bit of a sod if a meteor hits the Atlantic. Oh and I do drive a defender, my 4th in 20 years, along with three Disco's and 6 Range Rover Classics - all bar two of these vehicles had 200 or 300 Tdi's in... I ahve got my eye on a 110 with a 3.9 Isuzu lump in though - a CSW with an LT85

 

[Viggen]

Oh no, you didnt offend me. There were just some blanket statements about reliability and problems that were made that myself, and others, have proven to be incorrect. There is nothing wrong with choosing a factory drivetrain and there is nothing wrong with choosing one from a different place, like the Isuzu.





So, back to one of my original questions, math wise, 4.10 gears will do the same thing as the 1.4 transfer case regear to put it back to stock. If Im running 235/85r16 tires, what ratio would put it back to stock with the bigger tires?

 

[David Harris]

David

Have you ever visited this little country of ours? We do have hills you know. In fact we pretty much invented hills. We have high passes and low passes and medium passes. We have mountains, tors, fells, peaks, caers and mynydd. We do up and downs - this is not Holland

Our proximity to Europe give us a whole shed load more up and down stuff - no doubt you have heard of the Alps or the Pyrenees amongst others. Europe even has the original Sierra Nevada

Our D1's or Discovery 1's as we call them weigh in at 1900kgs for a five door unladed so that makes 4,180 English Pounds. Are your pounds smaller like your gallons? I can't remember as it's years since I lived State Side.

We are also lucky because our Diesel has a higher calorific value than yours - I have no idea why. Maybe it's because we have so many hills. SO not only do we get more mileage per gallon (and bigger gallons) but we get more power out of the box. Lucky us. You have much better dental care in the US so I think it's a good trade off; and your fast food is so much better; as are your Deserts (ours are mainly cultural not physical). You have nice trees as well. And beach volley ball.... Sorry I'm drifting - must be the altitude

I don't live on a hill - well not a big hill anyway. I'm 12meters above sea level - bit of a sod if a meteor hits the Atlantic. Oh and I do drive a defender, my 4th in 20 years, along with three Disco's and 6 Range Rover Classics - all bar two of these vehicles had 200 or 300 Tdi's in... I ahve got my eye on a 110 with a 3.9 Isuzu lump in though - a CSW with an LT85

Yes. I lived over in England for a year. Down south though in Oxfordshire. Did some climbing in Wales while I was there, so know you have some big hills there (we call them mountains). But, surely you're not doing 75 up the Welsh and Scottish passes, are you? Altitude is definitely in your favor, though, as the Wolf Creek pass on the Contintental Divide I was mentioning is at 10,863 ft. So, the air's a bit thin up there for the V8. The turbo 300 Tdi would be better at altitude, I'd guess.

I'd trade our fast food for your whiskey and beer, any day though. Personally, I don't think your food's too bad either, contrary to what a lot of American's think. Guess it's the English blood in me. (My family is from Hollowell, Northamptonshire.) I've thought about relocating back there, just so I can have unimpeded access to all that the UK has to offer, including all those 200 and 300 Tdis, Defenders, etc., which trade for prices of crapped-out Jeeps, Chevys and Fords here. My mouth waters everytime I look on Ebay UK. Perhaps you can help me find a good Defender to bring over to the U.S. when I make a trip over there next year?

Cheers,

David

 

[Yorker]

David

Have you ever visited this little country of ours? We do have hills you know. In fact we pretty much invented hills. We have high passes and low passes and medium passes. We have mountains, tors, fells, peaks, caers and mynydd. We do up and downs - this is not Holland

Our proximity to Europe give us a whole shed load more up and down stuff - no doubt you have heard of the Alps or the Pyrenees amongst others. Europe even has the original Sierra Nevada

Our D1's or Discovery 1's as we call them weigh in at 1900kgs for a five door unladed so that makes 4,180 English Pounds. Are your pounds smaller like your gallons? I can't remember as it's years since I lived State Side.

IIRC the US Discoveries were ~ 4450lbs curb weight- that is with the aluminum V8. I don't think of them as being particularly fast even with the 4.0l.

Vehicle expectations here seem different than those in the UK- I don't know if it is a cultural thing or simply a distance thing or what. I've discussed that with a number of ex-pat English and Scots over the years and they always seemd to refer to the saying: "In England 100 miles is a long distance and 100 years is a short time in America 100 miles is a short distance and 100 years is a long time."

None of the ex-pats I know of decided to run diesels in their Land Rovers- they all opted for V8s or 6's usually either the Rover V8 or US 5l+v8s. I've had several of them state that they think we are crazy to swap in diesels here.

 

[David Harris]

So, back to one of my original questions, math wise, 4.10 gears will do the same thing as the 1.4 transfer case regear to put it back to stock. If Im running 235/85r16 tires, what ratio would put it back to stock with the bigger tires?

In high range, you will be the same between the two, but the 4.10 gear option will give you a better crawl ratio in low range, since they will come into play both in high and low range. With the larger tires, you really only need around a 3.9 gearset to bring you back to stock. The 4.10's, however, will be better to get the diesel spooled up from a stop on the street.

David