Any built 300tdi D1 owners here?

[Yorker]

So, back to one of my original questions, math wise, 4.10 gears will do the same thing as the 1.4 transfer case regear to put it back to stock. If Im running 235/85r16 tires, what ratio would put it back to stock with the bigger tires?

For whatever reason rather than run a multitude of ring and pinion ratios to compensate for different vehicle weights/engine power Land Rover essentially decided to run an underdrive high range ratio in the Transfer case and use 3.54 Rings and pinions as a constant.

http://www.4lo.com/calc/gearratio.htm

plug in your figures there- stock Disco tires were 235-70r16 right? I think they are 29" tall. IIRC 235-85r16's are almost 32" tall.

When I run your #'s I get 3.9 ratio R+Ps To maintain stock RPMs at a given speed with 32" tires, however remember that those cruising RPMs were factory calculated for use with the V8. If I run the #s for a Discovery diesel then to replicate stock RPMs with 32" tires you'd have to run 4.56 R+Ps.

 

[Red90]

My 90 (with 200TDI and 1.2 t. case and 34s) was just weighed the other day at 2230 kg (4915 lb) with full fuel and nobody inside....

Cruising at 75 mph (120 kph) is no problem. Sure it slows down on hills, but no more than the average loaded truck on the road. I live at 4000 feet and there are these things call mountains right next door. Comparing to a stock V8, it accelerates about the same and max cruising is about the same. You can rev the V8 out more making shift splits a little easier.

Mine is stock (other than a bit of fueling), but a friend has his 200TDI done up with a VNT and all the bits needed to run more boost and fueling. He can sit at 85 mph all day and never be slowed by a hill.

I think it is important to get out and actually drive a properly tuned up TDI or TD5 first before you decide going down a complicated build route is really needed. I've done two 200TDI Defender swaps and your are driving away within a day with a completely stock vehicle.

 

[David Harris]

If I run the #s for a Discovery diesel then to replicate stock RPMs with 32" tires you'd have to run 4.56 R+Ps.

I believe the diesel Discos had the same 3.54 gears as the V8's, and the same 1.2 high range transfer case. They never had the 1.4 like the Defender. Nonimouse would be the best one to confirm or deny this, but looking at UK test reports, as well as the Camel Trophy Disco specs, this is the case.

 

[Nonimouse]

"In England 100 miles is a long distance and 100 years is a short time in America 100 miles is a short distance and 100 years is a long time."


Great saying - truly great saying. My mother's family have held feud with another clan for over 500 years. My elder aunts still talk about it!

David - no problem, any help you need just give me a shout

 

[Viggen]

For whatever reason rather than run a multitude of ring and pinion ratios to compensate for different vehicle weights/engine power Land Rover essentially decided to run an underdrive high range ratio in the Transfer case and use 3.54 Rings and pinions as a constant.

http://www.4lo.com/calc/gearratio.htm

plug in your figures there- stock Disco tires were 235-70r16 right? I think they are 29" tall. IIRC 235-85r16's are almost 32" tall.

When I run your #'s I get 3.9 ratio R+Ps To maintain stock RPMs at a given speed with 32" tires, however remember that those cruising RPMs were factory calculated for use with the V8. If I run the #s for a Discovery diesel then to replicate stock RPMs with 32" tires you'd have to run 4.56 R+Ps.

Yeah, I think they kept the 3.54 ratio axle gears and changed the high range to 1.44. What did you use as the o/d? The R380 5th or the ZF auto as I will be running an auto (yes, I know its not ideal but my gf will also have to drive this truck sometimes and she has no interest in a manual at all). So, Im only planning to ever run high 32's or 33" tires, what will the cruising rpm be at 65 mph?

 

[David Harris]

Yeah, I think they kept the 3.54 ratio axle gears and changed the high range to 1.44. What did you use as the o/d? The R380 5th or the ZF auto as I will be running an auto (yes, I know its not ideal but my gf will also have to drive this truck sometimes and she has no interest in a manual at all). So, Im only planning to ever run high 32's or 33" tires, what will the cruising rpm be at 65 mph?

I had a 300 Tdi Disco with the Auto and I can tell you that it is really slow from a stop going without at least 4.10's. Off road it will be OK, though due the the low range.

 

[Yorker]

"In England 100 miles is a long distance and 100 years is a short time in America 100 miles is a short distance and 100 years is a long time."


Great saying - truly great saying. My mother's family have held feud with another clan for over 500 years. My elder aunts still talk about it!

Yeah it is a cool saying and kind of puts some things in perspective. Other ex-pats just shrug and say "things are just different". A lot of Americans aren't happy unless they can stomp on the skinny pedal and accelerate at any speed with any load... Then you read on UK forums about people happily going on holiday towing a 20'+ caravan with an 88" with a 2.25l... :O

You guys DO have mountains but Ben Nevis is what? 4400feet? The highest pass I know of in the Alps is 8200'. I am not trying to say everything is bigger, better, taller, farther, cheaper, and faster here but that the frame of reference and expectations differ as a result. Those differneces in expectations are hard to quantify both on an individual and cultural basis.


aliastel- The more I think about it I think you are right that the 300 tdi Discoveries used the 1.22 transfer case ratio.

 

[Yorker]

Yeah, I think they kept the 3.54 ratio axle gears and changed the high range to 1.44. What did you use as the o/d? The R380 5th or the ZF auto as I will be running an auto (yes, I know its not ideal but my gf will also have to drive this truck sometimes and she has no interest in a manual at all). So, Im only planning to ever run high 32's or 33" tires, what will the cruising rpm be at 65 mph?

For the calculations I did to determine the R+Ps I ignored the OD ratio and used 1:1 (which would be either 3rd with the slush box or 4th gear with a stick shift). You don't really need to put in the OD ratio to do those calculations.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

I've heard that this motor has issues with electronics reliability. Can anyone confirm this? The basic motor seems to be good. However, because it was designed as a car motor, it develops it's power higher in the rev range, which makes it faster on the road, but not as suited to off-road use as the 300 Tdi.

Are those the same electronics reliability problems that the V8's are supposed to have? Yet, on a few online polls I've seen, it's almost impossible to find somebody who was *actually* stranded due to an electrical problem.

However, in my opinion the electronic nature of the engine makes it weaker for out and out off-road use, if only by virtue of the fact that once again computers are required to run it and computers/sensors don't like water. Nor do they like dusty conditions, such as in the Sahara, where everything electronic in vehicles doesn't last long without malfunction. I think if the TD5 were put through the kind of use the 300 Tdi were in the Camel Trophy, they would have broken down not long from the start.

When I did this:

My trans controller got soaking wet, and stopped functioning. I completely removed it so it could dry out. Yet I still drove with no controller plugged in at all. I was stuck in 3rd gear, but between high and low range, made it through. I then cleaned out the controller the same day, and it was perfectly fine. This idea about electronics not liking water is a bit over-stated. It may have been true in the 80's and 90's, but I don't think so anymore. In the end, that water caused a *mechanical* failure. The trans sucked in some water, and the clutches all died. Done. THAT left me stranded.

While I'm removing the trans, I've been looking at all the electrical connections on the underside of the truck. All of them are as clean inside as the day they left the factory, despite being caked in mung on the outside.

A big part of the fear about electronics is not the electronics themselves. It's people's unwillingness to learn about them. Go ask about a Nanocom, Hawkeye, or MVS2 on any American Land Rover forum. Nobody knows anything about them. But then they whine and complain about the "unservicable" electronics on their trucks.

 

[David Harris]

Are those the same electronics reliability problems that the V8's are supposed to have? Yet, on a few online polls I've seen, it's almost impossible to find somebody who was *actually* stranded due to an electrical problem.

So no one has ever had a Crank Position Sensor go out? Or an ECU with corrosion which won't start? Or a VSS which causes the vehicle to cut out at 70 mph? Talk to a Rover mechanic like PT Schram who sees a lot of Rovers all the time. I myself was stranded no less than 8 times on the road, one which cost me a 400.00 tow (after AAA RV membership), due to a faulty electrical connector in the fuel supply circuit which I finally tracked down. I agree that most electronics problems won't stop you dead, but they happen, especially on older vehicles, and those exposed to severe conditions. I'd also be interested to hear the story from someone who has submerged a stock TD5 with water over the hood, as in the Camel Trophy.

 

[David Harris]

A big part of the fear about electronics is not the electronics themselves. It's people's unwillingness to learn about them. Go ask about a Nanocom, Hawkeye, or MVS2 on any American Land Rover forum. Nobody knows anything about them. But then they whine and complain about the "unservicable" electronics on their trucks.

Electronics make new vehicles more powerful and efficient than ever, and they ain't going away, that's for sure. But why worry about all of this when you're out in the middle of nowhere, and maybe 10,000 miles from home? Not only that, I don't see the newer Rovers still being on the road in large numbers in 20 years, because to refurbish all of those electronics just costs too much to be worth it, and is potentially a big pain. How many PC's from twenty years ago are rebuilt/upgraded and still in use today? Like personal computers, vehicles are throw away now, and this is largely due to electronics. For overlanding, just get an all mechanical motor and eliminate the problem altogether. That's just my opinion.

 

[DarthBeaver]

I have been reading a lot about complaints related to off-roading and electronics... but.. has ANYONE come up with a solution? I agree these are NOT going away and with hybrid proliferation and increase electronic additions in vehicles maybe the time is better spent looking for a solution in protecting these additions than complaining about them...


just my thoughts...

 

[R_Lefebvre]

So no one has ever had a Crank Position Sensor go out? Or an ECU with corrosion which won't start? Or a VSS which causes the vehicle to cut out at 70 mph? Talk to a Rover mechanic like PT Schram who sees a lot of Rovers all the time. I myself was stranded no less than 8 times on the road, one which cost me a 400.00 tow (after AAA RV membership), due to a faulty electrical connector in the fuel supply circuit which I finally tracked down. I agree that most electronics problems won't stop you dead, but they happen, especially on older vehicles, and those exposed to severe conditions.

I dunno. Go search for the surveys yourself. There was one on Discoweb last year. The CkPS is indeed a killer. Carry a spare. What year was the truck that you had with a bad fuel supply connector? I did just state that vehicles in the 90's had problems.

Of the times that I myself have been stranded the problems were:

Dead Auto Trans
Dead Alternator, ran out of battery power (is this really an "electronics" problem?)
Stuck WFO throttle cable leading to engine seizure
Lots of carb problems

Other's I have personally witnessed:

Lots of wet distributors
KTM 990 with a fuel pump failure (ok, that's 1)
Lots of water ingestion

Just last month I helped out a guy who had sunk his PWC. Only the nose was out of the water, and he swam it back to shore. It was a Direct Injection 2 stroke, so fully electronic. The motor, intake and exhaust were all full of water. Once we cleared it, it started right up and ran fine.

I'd also be interested to hear the story from someone who has submerged a stock TD5 with water over the hood, as in the Camel Trophy.

Is this deep enough?

I wouldn't go any deeper with my own truck. And even that was a bit much. Now, if you GAVE me a truck, and support crew, as they did with the Camel Trophy, sure I'll give it a shot.

I'm not saying electronics are infallible. I'm just saying it's not the achillese heel some make them out to be.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

I have been reading a lot about complaints related to off-roading and electronics... but.. has ANYONE come up with a solution? I agree these are NOT going away and with hybrid proliferation and increase electronic additions in vehicles maybe the time is better spent looking for a solution in protecting these additions than complaining about them...

Sure, WeatherPack connectors, and potting compound. There are lots of electronics available that are 100% waterproof. I have a digital camera that is waterproof to 3 feet.

 

[David Harris]

I have been reading a lot about complaints related to off-roading and electronics... but.. has ANYONE come up with a solution? I agree these are NOT going away and with hybrid proliferation and increase electronic additions in vehicles maybe the time is better spent looking for a solution in protecting these additions than complaining about them...


just my thoughts...

There are solutions if you want to keep the electronics, but it requires a lot of hard work and upgrades. The more complex the systems, the more work. Many people have pretty successfully waterproofed their V8's, TD5's etc. Depending on the application it means going through and sealing everything against water and dust, as well as relocating components to safer locations. For instance, some TD5 owners relocate the ECU to roof/head level. Perhaps Lefebvre's trans controller could have been waterproofed and driven right through? However, for the age and degradation problem, there's really no solution other than complete replacement. Components and wiring age and have to be replaced = a lot of work and expense. I myself would not want to have to rewire a new Range Rover, or even a Disco II for that matter, to work as stock. It can be done by someone with the right patience and skills, but I wouldn't want to do it . . . I enjoy everything about my Disco 1 V8, except the electrical problems. (i.e. When I put my headlights on, my front windows don't work. I have to turn the damned headlights off to roll them up and down at night . . .) I am replacing all of my power windows with manual units. I'll never have to worry about it again. I have also replaced most of the sensors in my V8, and it is more reliable now. But, it cost a lot of money.