Arctic Environmental / Sponsorship Discussion

calamaridog

Expedition Leader
Ursidae69 said:
In the end, I am still optimistic that these higher prices at the pump (that are not going away) will spur advances in conservation and fuel economy.

This is exactly the case. As the technology makes financial sense, it is brought to market in greater quantity...

...Ethanol for example...

...Which raised the price of CORN in 3rd world countries, such as Mexico, leading to FOOD RIOTS. People died, because the price of tortillas went through the roof.


Oh, the tangled web we weave.
 

calamaridog

Expedition Leader
GeoRoss said:
The interesting question that did arise is when is money too dirty to accept in sponsorship? On a level we all experience, who do we support through our shopping habits. I think that we are all old enough to realize that the world is not black and white. How does one decide? It all depends on the compromise and shades of gray one's moral compass sees.

:cheers:

How does one decide?

I doubt you, or 99% of consumers has any idea where most of the stuff they buy originated from and where the profits went.

It's almost impossible to tell from looking at a package...
 

GeoRoss

Adventurer
calamaridog said:
How does one decide?

I doubt you, or 99% of consumers has any idea where most of the stuff they buy originated from and where the profits went.

It's almost impossible to tell from looking at a package...


:iagree:

That is what makes it such a great question on both the personal level and on the sponsorship/professional level .


Are you in the 99% or 1%? :)

Me, I'd like to think I try my best on these issues but often fall into your 99%.
 

RoundOut

Explorer
Ursidae69 said:
In the end, I am still optimistic that these higher prices at the pump (that are not going away) will spur advances in conservation and fuel economy.

That is a free market response to opportunity. High prices of gasoline at the pump will cause some entrepreneur(s) to develop a widget or widgets that either conserves or replaces gasoline or offers an alternative power plant for vehicles that would not be economic to develop if gasoline prices were much lower. Is $3.00 gasoline enough to cause this to happen? I don't know, but eventually, it will happen. That is the beauty of a free market economy. How, when, what, I wish I knew.

pskhaat said:
Pure capitalism is no sin, but let's not be fooled into thinking we live in a free market for any industry. Laws and methods of taxation drive and steer economies. Laws (or specific lack thereof), lobbying, tax codes, and pinpoint Congressional spending can shape those economies as well as the resulting social culture.

I agree completely, Scott. We are far from a pure free market with all the taxes, duties, legal requirements and other obligations levied upon companies and citizens, alike. "Personal responsibility" and "buyer beware" are overwhelmed with laws and regulations designed to protect consumers (this is not always a bad thing), and taxes that rarely get spent productively (this is unfortunate).

pskhaat said:
I am being charged significantly more than historical, speculative, or projected future cost

I have not done the math in a long time, but as an economist, you may wish to consider real dollars since the 1970's. I am pretty certain that gasoline remains cheaper now than it was in the 1970's in real dollars. I have no opinion on speculative or future cost, although I cannot see oil staying at these levels forever, nor do I see it becoming $20 per barrel ever again.
 
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flywgn

Explorer
RoundOut said:
...I have not done the math in a long time, but as an economist, you may wish to consider real dollars since the 1970's. I am pretty certain that gasoline remains cheaper now than it was in the 1970's in real dollars. ...

I wish that all my files were not still packed away after our recent move, but I did this math about a year ago based on figures from 1964 and determined that gas should have been (at that time) around $3.50/gal based on the comparative figures of other "essential" commodities and the value of the dollar.

This exercise in comparative figures stemmed from a question I answered in the Economist. There was a really good study I found that was done by, I think, Wharton which placed the price around $3.75/gal.

'Course this makes me feel so much better when I put 42 gal in my truck at $2.69/gal. ;)

Allen R
 

Scott Brady

Founder
Kermit said:
Lets say you seized your motor with their product, would they pay for a new motor?

I think if it was attributed to a fluid failure, they would. Hard to say for sure, but they have been great to work with (they are big fans of expedition testing). Fortunately, I am back on standard 5W30 Mobil 1 synth and everything looks good.

They are running tests on the fluid I ran in the Arctic.
 

Pskhaat

2005 Expedition Trophy Champion
RoundOut said:
real dollars since the 1970's

That's quite a tough comparison though. For instance, how much did you pay for a 12oz can of soda in 1985? I'm guessing about $0.50. Today? Most likely about $0.50. Inflation is present but the basic price point remains, this is due often in part to economies of scale with growth, technology and better practices.

Taking simple inflation (which is a whole 'nother topic :) ) I'm betting we're nearly at our trending high end, but we're much better now at our geophysics and exploration, better at extraction and chemical refining. We have greater volume and infrastructure and should be able to account for much of the overhead we saw in those years. Plus we're using cheaper overseas labor (no rhetoric, just stating) in our global economy.

It's a great point you raise. I think the demand side sets the prices now though. It's not inflation that is our enemy, it's our price indexing, which of course due to our US infrastructure so primarily based on individual fuel usage, we've made a perfectly inelastic product.
 

Willman

Active member
expeditionswest said:
I think if it was attributed to a fluid failure, they would. Hard to say for sure, but they have been great to work with (they are big fans of expedition testing). Fortunately, I am back on standard 5W30 Mobil 1 synth and everything looks good.

They are running tests on the fluid I ran in the Arctic.

Let us know their findings if you can!
 

DesertRose

Safari Chick & Supporting Sponsor
GeoRoss said:
Originally Posted by GeoRoss

The interesting question that did arise is when is money too dirty to accept in sponsorship? On a level we all experience, who do we support through our shopping habits. I think that we are all old enough to realize that the world is not black and white. How does one decide? It all depends on the compromise and shades of gray one's moral compass sees.


calimaridog said:
How does one decide?

I doubt you, or 99% of consumers has any idea where most of the stuff they buy originated from and where the profits went.

It's almost impossible to tell from looking at a package...

I think that these comments sum up the angst that has surfaced with this thread - we're really talking moral compasses, and yet no one compass is grounded by the same pole. So really it's up to each person to set their compass direction and decide what works for them - and try not to bash others whose compasses deviate.

I can speak from my own experience in 20 years raising money for conservation - no money is "green" - any person or corporation that has reached the level where they can create an endowment to fund philanthropy has invested those funds in global markets, every single share of which may be traced to something that might offend someone somewhere. Once upon a time you might have been able to choose an "American" or local company, but today all stock markets are linked - vis a vis the recent "plunge" of nearly all markets when the Shanghai market burped 10%. All . . . connected.

Scott's conundrum comes in that he has put himself out there publicly, which subjects him to the subjective lenses of our moral compasses. While he had his really well-thought-out-reasons for accepting Mobil1 sponsorship, they were not articulated yet to the public. Hence the blip when Freetomeander posed his questions (which, we all agree, were worthwhile but not packaged as diplomatically as they could have been).

Anyway, I love this thread, and the amazing minds that are contributing to it. I'm really humbled by all the thought that has gone into personal compasses for life here. Thanks for sharing.

As Kermit sez, live life the best you can now, because you won't make it out alive. :pROFSheriffHL:

What's cool is to find others out there who think about things like this . . . and are willing to discuss them like gentlemen/women - thanks for that.

And now, it's martini-time.

:beer: Hey Scott - we need a Martini emoticon for those of us real 'men' who drink real drinks :hehe:
 

VikingVince

Explorer
RoundOut said:
Absolutely not, profiteering is not going on.

I'm not gonna get into a debate with you...can see where you're coming from...but I gotta say I find that statement pretty hard to swallow. I guess it depends on your definition of "profiteering." If you stick to an untainted, textbook definition using supply and demand, you can make the argument you made.

Oxford Concise English dictionary definition: profiteering - make an excessive or unfair profit.

Our modern usage of the word also includes the associated negative connotations. I would define profiteering as: the often harmful and usually never benign manipulation and exploitation of any and all resources and institutions to realize an excessive or unfair profit, largely retained by the profiteer for self enrichment.

Do oil companies engage in profiteering? Pretty much a no-brainer for me.

I know, I know...now you'll say "well, tell me how oil companies engage in manipulation and exploitation." Well. just read the links in freetomeander's post. I agree with a lot of the information in those links. (That is NOT a judgment on Team Arctic travelling under the EM banner)
 
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RoundOut

Explorer
For those critical to my choice of primary occupation, you should know that I teach Leave No Trace in my son's Scout Troop, recycle as much as possible, car pool whenever possible, practice Tread Lightly in my off-road adventures and purchase products in bulk to avoid wastful packaging whenever possible. My family actively conserves wherever we feel it is possible and economic, and we are raising our children to be aware of resources and be thrifty with them at all times. Our society is inherently wasteful, and that is shameful, but with proper education and child-rearing, at least our decendents will appreciate our resources.

Although it is nobodies business, I'll further volunteer to be even more clear so that everyone can understand the "Oil Man from Houston". I make a few cents per barrel for aligning an independent oil producer with a market (marketing company, pipeline company or refiner) that is willing to pay them more for their production than other markets were at the time. When oil is $10 per barrel, I make a few cents and that does not change with oil at $60+ per barrel. In other words, my pound of flesh remains the same and I am NOT a profiteer, LOL.

VikingVince said:
Do oil companies engage in profiteering? Pretty much a no-brainer for me.
I respect that you don't wish to debate this issue of profiteering, but your insistance on oil companies being profiteers, raises an important question to me.

Where do the profits lay in the oil business today, as compared with times when the natural resources were not priced as highly? When oil and gas sold for $20/bbl and $3/mcf respectively, producers made a profit, refiners and marketers made a profit, other things equal. Now, Oil is north of $60bbl and gas is north of $7/mcf. Nothing has changed anything in the refining and marketing business except for the cost of their working capital, i.e. cost of holding any inventory, whether feedstock, unfinished products, or finished products. Refining and marketing margins ebb and flow, but the margins rarely last in an increased state. It is difficult for refiners and marketers to successfully maintain wide margins because of the alternative supplies available in the efficient commodity system they are locked into. There exists markets which have traditionally had higher margins, such as the west coast, the Salt Lake City area, and the Phoenix area. Their high margins attract supplies from outside their natural geographic production regions, which tend to keep the margins from getting too extreme.

Now that we have bracketed that, one should understand that the major oil companies, i.e. ExxonMobil, Shell, BP, ConocoPhillips, ChevronTexaco, and Citgo control a huge percentage of the giant refineries in the country, but their are some very large independents that play primarily in just the refining and marketing space, such as Valero, and Tesoro.

Of the integrated majors, a small percentage of the reserves they refine come from their own production in the U.S. Most majors have divested of most of their oil production in the U.S. and those producing properties are now owned by much smaller independent producers. There are a few large independent producers, such as Apache, Anadarko, and Occidental, but the lion's share of domestic production is produced by much smaller independent operators. It is THESE independent operators that supply the majority of domestic production to the refiners, including the majors, which supply the gasoline and deisel for transportation and heating fuels and have the brand recognition that makes them the favored targets when price-gouging accusations are flying about.

All of the above is to accurately point to the independent producer as the "profiteer" in the mix. Yes, their profits are extraordinary right now. However, these are the same independent producers who struggled to pay the light bill when oil was at $8-$14/bbl. Street gasoline prices were sub $1 then, and if an oil well went down, it was common to defer maintenance on it because the cost of maintenance could not be justified in the return on that investment. They could barely feed their families, so you could buy gasoline for less than a dollar a gallon.

It is upsetting for me, as someone who purchases oil from small independents, to sit by and watch industry outsiders criticize the "oil companies". They look at the majors, who invested in engineers to design more economic drilling, extraction, refining, and transportation technology, and done so at great expense. They look at the majors that made a bunch of money when the remaining production from their larger fields (remember they have divested almost all of their smaller fields) and from their vast investments in international production as world market prices rose to record high levels, driving the cost of the street price of gasoline to record highs in the U.S. Because of the major's overwhelming presence as household names due to their large branded jobber networks and company-owned stations on nearly every major intersection, they are the whipping boys of the whole industry. They don't do a very good p/r job to rebut this, so I guess in a way, they deserve it.

However, the naivety of the average finger-pointer is overwhelming. We have a bunch of very lucky business owners who happen to produce oil or gas, and you label them a profiteer because they own commodities that the world market prices extrememly high. The majors, who have the brand recognition and because of thier huge investments, get large profits, get slammed as profiteers, when in reality, they don't own a very large percentage of the component of the industry which makes gasoline prices so high.

I hope this post helps oil industry outsiders better understand some of the dynamics that create the appearance of profiteering. The very one's who profit (the independent producer) are the one's with the least control over the value of their production. That is hardly a definition of profiteering, in my opinion.
 

flywgn

Explorer
Thank you RoundOut for taking the time to respond.

Since the privately-owned producers--whether they be the large Exxon or the small independent--control very little of the world market, don't the nationalized companies (over 87% of the mkt as I understand it) play the definitive role in pricing?

Allen R
 

awalter

Expedition Portal Team, Overland Certified OC0003
When is a return on profit considered profiteering, 10% profit return, 20%, 30%?

When gross revenues are huge, a 10% profit looks huge, but in my mind is not out of line.
 

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