Axle, diff & locker input needed

[Allen Bosely]

Yes Alaska Mike is correct, I am here asking basically opinions of folks who more experience than I have.

And really most of things we do such as, 4 wheeling, expedition travel ect. a lot of what we each like and feel is the best is really opinions based on our experiences or what we have observed. Since a lot of what we do is difficult to test in a repeatable test.

And what at least from my perspective what is really helpful is not just the opinions but the why those opinions have been formed.

Speaking of opinions.

Mike or others, what do think of an ARB in the front if it has heavy duty axels such as GBRs 24 spline and high quality or HD gears if available?

Or use an ARB in the rear and a Tru-Track in the front?

What would you see as the Pros and Cons for these two combinations?

The choice is not based on $ but rather the better set up for my situation.

I don't think I want to use a Detroit locker in the rear. But the ARB Tru-Track
combination might have some advantages?

Is there a tire size limitation on the tru-trac?

Allen

 

[michaelgroves]

With the heavy loads an expedition vehicle carries, I'd agree with Alaska Mike that axle lockers can be more of a liability than an asset. Heavily laden, you are less likely to get into situations where you have big differences in traction between the wheels. And if you do find yourself in such a technically difficult situation, where you can't just choose a better line, then it's precisely the kind of situation where locking will put maximum strain on the axle-shaft with traction.

So considering how often that's likely to happen, you might be better off opting for a winch and/or other recovery gear that will be effective in a wider range of situations, and also be kinder to your vehicle.

Having said that, you evidently understand the issues, which means that a selectable locker like an ARB gives you the option to use it or not, based on your judgment of each situation when it arises. From that point of view, there is very little downside to having the lockers, especially if money is no object!

 

[LC/LR4Life]

In my opinion, the above statement of ARB lockers being a 'liability'? is wrong.

The ARB set up actually strengthens your differential, even if you don't lock it. You will never break an ARB diff carrier.

The best set up you can run is ARB front and rear, with your 24 spline axles.

 

[Alaska Mike]

If you're going to spend the money on a traction aiding device for that front axle, by all means go with the ARB. Any non-selectable locker or limited slip differential will have negative consequences with handling. I will never buy another non-selectable locker. The downsides just don't make them worth it to me.

If you're going to change gearing (I'm assuming to a 4.1 or 4.7 ratio), then it makes sense to install that ARB and get it over with. You're already paying for the majority of the labor associated with an ARB installation.

My point is that on an overland vehicle, a front locker can be a liability. Even if you install the best gears available for that carrier, you're still talking about a relatively small ring and pinion. When you beef up the axles and carrier, the gears become the fuse. On your average overland trip, you're not likely to encounter many situations where a front locker will be the difference between success and failure. The gears are already stressed with the extra weight being carried, and to have essentially a spool (that's what an Air Locker is when engaged) up there might be a little much.

That said, I run an ARB in a front Dana 30, which is not known for being the beefiest axle out there. I've run trails like the Rubicon and Tellico with no axle failures, mainly because I'm a wuss on the skinny pedal. I've broken plenty of other stuff that was supposed to be strong, but never an axle shaft or ring gear. Knock on virtual wood. Only you (and people who know our driving style) can really say if a locker is a good investment.

My Series III will have upgraded axles, no lockers, a good winch, and every expectation that it will occasionally get stuck. For me, that's when the fun really begins.

 

[RonL]

My carrier broke driving down the road at highway speeds. I am sure it got damaged offroading, but it broke on the road with a heavy load. Rover carriers are weak when you start to carry heavy loads with big tires. If/when I do my front axle I will install a ARB over a TruTrac because you will only be stressing the axle shafts and C-V when it is engaged. Detroits and TruTrac do add stress because they are always pushing power to both wheel even when turning. With ARBs you have less stress in highway driving, and a stronger carrier.

If you break an axle with a TruTrac can you drive or does all the power go to the broken axle shaft?

 

[michaelgroves]

In my opinion, the above statement of ARB lockers being a 'liability'? is wrong.

The ARB set up actually strengthens your differential, even if you don't lock it. You will never break an ARB diff carrier.

The best set up you can run is ARB front and rear, with your 24 spline axles.

Agreed, installing the ARBs makes the diffs stronger. But lockingthem, especially in a heavily laden vehicle, is when they can cause more damage than they prevent. Actually, locking a front diff can occasionally result in less strain on the rear axle, and vice versa, so it's not all bad news. But the considerable downside of lockers is still worth pointing out, especially given their cost (which might more effectively be allocated to other components).

 

[Alaska Mike]

Agreed, installing the ARBs makes the diffs stronger. But lockingthem, especially in a heavily laden vehicle, is when they can cause more damage than they prevent. Actually, locking a front diff can occasionally result in less strain on the rear axle, and vice versa, so it's not all bad news. But the considerable downside of lockers is still worth pointing out, especially given their cost (which might more effectively be allocated to other components).

I think that's what I was getting at.

Setting up any off-road vehicle is a balancing act of resources. I know guys who try to plan for every contingency. They modify a part to make it stonger or perform better, which in turn uncovers another weak link, which they then modify. The chain continues until the point that their vehicle is practically a solid block of steel, illegal or uncomfortable to drive for any real distance.

While the stock carrier and gearset is on the small side, I don't think it's excessively so for a front axle. The carrier can flex in some circumstances, leading to other problems. The ARB would certainly fix that flex problem. Installing a Toyota 3rd member would go one step farther by adding a strong ring and pinion.

Again, it's a balancing act.

 

[revor]

That's the real quandry isn't it? I sell all this stuff.. My Disco has a 35spine Salisbury with a Detroit and an FJ 80 E locker up front, Longfeild Toy CV's and Alloy axles.

The wife's Disco has a Detroit locked Toyota 8" rear Rover front with an ARB and Rovertracks CV's and Axles. Both have upgraded driveshafts..

My car is a toy rockcrawler/Desert speedster/daily driver/formula 1 racer (when I put my cool gloves on and those neat glasses!) It will never have a problem with the driveline.

My wifes car daily driver, Trail leader, short excursion camper, dog and kid hauler and I don't suspect that with that set up she'll have any problems.

My 110 will be the long range people hauler along with all the gear for the kids, dogs, humans, a RTT (and an ample supply of beer) plus hauling the trailer with RTT and it's gear. I have the means to lock it up, build the driveline big but I hesitate. I don't see myself doing things in this truck that I would do in either of the other cars, so why? In the end I suspect I will set it up like my Disco only because I can but does it make sense?

 

[shartzer]

I have been following this thread with a lot of interest. I am at the point now where it is one of the last things to do on my Disco and I have not been sure if it is worth doing anything at all.

Basically it is a 1996 Disco I 5sp. It has an engine conversion but the torque is only a little higher on the new motor (4.3l v6). I run 235/85 AT and never plan to go bigger or more aggressive. No need to do a whole modification list but I feel it is very close to completion except for the driveline stuff. The vehicle will never be a hard core rock crawler or mudder but rather a long distance traveler, heavily loaded at times. Reliability is by far most important for me and I have a winch if I get stuck.

So here is a similar setup and a similarly confused reader. What is you guy's opinion on my needs? The plan I have had had for the last several months is tru-tracs front and back with upgraded axles. The reason I have liked this idea is it would replace the weak carriers and a limited slip would minimize stress on the other parts (as opposed to locking). I worry with an open diff in choppy traction situations where the wheel is slipping and grabbing I would be putting large impact stresses on all the parts. Also I really don't know how tight a tru-trac is and some of you have mentioned the truck steering can feel pretty tight with one. Also I don't know if drive shafts are really needed but I do plan to upgrade to a rear driveshaft without the rubber coupling (I only have 2" OME lift).

Lastly and most importantly, besides the building of it I haven't really enjoyed the truck and want to be taking it out ASAP. We finally have warm weather here in Michigan and a major subsystem overhaul yet again is for once not something I am looking forward to. Actually I feel like a yupee with an SUV that never goes off-road. But I fear my ability to do this work maybe limited in the near future as I maybe moving to a more urban area (apartments) and could possibly have limited cash for a while.

Any thoughts?

 

[revor]

You know (vendor hat off) I think you are on the right track. For years it was a Detroit Locker in the rear and a TT up front.. The combination was great in everything we drove including snow, Awsome traction. With the 235/85's I was never worried about CV's.
Change the Rotflex to a proper U joint add good rear axles a DL or TT rear (trust me you will never know that detroit is there) and a TT front..

Easy simple and functional.

Whow! A blast from the past and something current. Hey wait that's not my truck!! (second one.)

 

[revor]

This is! With that crazy Italian friend of mine!

 

[Yorker]

That's the real quandry isn't it? I sell all this stuff.. My Disco has a 35spine Salisbury with a Detroit and an FJ 80 E locker up front, Longfeild Toy CV's and Alloy axles.

The wife's Disco has a Detroit locked Toyota 8" rear Rover front with an ARB and Rovertracks CV's and Axles. Both have upgraded driveshafts..

My car is a toy rockcrawler/Desert speedster/daily driver/formula 1 racer (when I put my cool gloves on and those neat glasses!) It will never have a problem with the driveline.

My wifes car daily driver, Trail leader, short excursion camper, dog and kid hauler and I don't suspect that with that set up she'll have any problems.

My 110 will be the long range people hauler along with all the gear for the kids, dogs, humans, a RTT (and an ample supply of beer) plus hauling the trailer with RTT and it's gear. I have the means to lock it up, build the driveline big but I hesitate. I don't see myself doing things in this truck that I would do in either of the other cars, so why? In the end I suspect I will set it up like my Disco only because I can but does it make sense?

Ok- where does the 109 fit in?

 

[Alaska Mike]

I prefer an ARB simply because it can be turned off. Even a TT will cause some negative steering effects on slick surfaces (mud, snow) and uneven terrain. Can be scary at times.

Automatic lockers are simple (no air lines/compressors or extra wiring), but they have their drawbacks. Having owned both (and clutch pack limited slips), I can honestly say that I'll never go back to a non-selectable traction-aiding device.

 

[stevenmd]

Ok- where does the 109 fit in?

Not sure if you are referring to the original question or Keith's sig line but I am asking this question too... here in California I can only import a petrol 1983 110 which limits what I can do - no diesel engine. A 109 will allow a diesel engine.

Then comes the 110 coil vs. the 109 leaf questions, etc...

It seems like all the advice given is for a 110. What about a 109 so us California types can add the diesel engine?:costumed-smiley-007

(I hope these questions are in line with the original intent of this thread. If not, I can start a new one so as not to offend anyone.)

 

[astateofmike]

I hope these questions are in line with the original intent of this thread. If not, I can start a new one so as not to offend anyone.)

So now we know why the brash RoverX is no more.....you became civilized to fit in over here... From cheap beer and lousy smokes to finer living, good spirits and a nice cigar......(and they know how to really get out into the backcountry over here....)

Steven, just get a small trailer home is some far out Nevada county, where they care little about smog, and have all your vehicles registered there. Buy the place and write it off as the primary residence. Rent it out and use it to write off desert trips...

And get whatever Rover you want.......