Axle, diff & locker input needed

[revor]

Keep in mind that you have a Salisbury rear axle (Series III or pre-2002 Defender), so the robustness of the rear axle is pretty much taken care of without putting in an ARB. It already has 24-spline shafts, and if you think they aren't up to the job, then you can either fit aftermarket HD 24-splines, or carry a pair of them as spares (you probably will never need them).

Changing to 4.1 ratio weakens the Salisbury a little, but IMO, it's still well up to the job - in any case, there's not that much you can do to strengthen it, other than using the best c&P set (the ARB only affects the carrier strength).

Up front, I'd agree:- A stronger carrier (ARB), and better shafts and CVs. It's unlikely that you'll break the crownwheel and pinion in the front, though I really mistrust the 4.1 ratio pinion. It remains the relative weak point of what you are proposing, if I had to pick one. Not much point in pegging a 4.1 - how about leaving both diffs with the stronger stock 3.54 ratio, and lowering your gearing in the transfer box, (if you discover that you need lower gears)?

Michael makes a great point. The Sals, being a Dana 60 and all that is about as strong a Diff as there is.. The 35 spline versions live for a long time in Rock Racers. I plan to put 30spline 4340 shafts in mine but only because I have to, 24 spline will be fine for an Overlander and if you are not going to lock it I would question the need to carry spares. The big 4 spider diff is the bomb!! Leave it 3.54 and do the t case if you are going to stay Rover up front
and either use a 4 spider Rover diff or a better carrier..

One the lft is a Rover 4.1 ratio VS a Toyota 8" 4.10, on the right a Sals diff.

 

[Alaska Mike]

A picture is worth 1000 words.

 

[Allen Bosely]

Oh, Gee thanks Keith!

Just as I think I have found a good compromise on this front end and you have to show me THAT picture!

Ok, I have to explore this at least a little bit.

On a Toy diff conversion for the front, other than the Toyota diff parts(which would be factory or salvage available), what parts are custom or unique to the conversion?

Say I'm in Southern Africa and silly me, I break an axel or something. What parts would be a stock size (or easily modified) of either LR or Toyota for replacement to limp home?

At first I thought I needed only parts that could be replaced with salvaged factory parts if needed.

Then I realized, Duh spares, dummy carry spares.So what spares would need to be carried?

Are the axels made by anyone else in these sizes? The reason I ask is having a completely proprietary part is a concern as if some thing happened to you I would have no source short of completely custom.

Also what about McNamara in AU He makes a Hypoid diff. I think it is a a Toyota diff with custom cast 3rd member housing. Anyone familiar with these? mcnamaradiffs.com.au

I have to admit that Toyota gear sure looks more robust. Putting a ARB it a Toyota diff would give some peace of mind with out going overboard on Heavy Duty.

Allen

 

[Chucaro]

Some times I just wonder why LR owners under estimate their vehicles.
I done an "over kill" with my Rangie 1988 by fitting Truetack diff and Keith's shafts at the back. This setup will take the Landy any were.
I am attaching here 3 images of my son Carlos (Stooge a member of this forum) with his complete standard RR 1985 fitted with 33" tires (very second hand)
He going trough this type of terrain very often and without dramas.
Why modifying a vehicle that is so good from the factory?
Just my opinion.
Cheers

 

[Alaska Mike]

As far as the Seriestrek axles go, the only custom parts are the axle shafts, the housing work, and machining of the stub shafts. Oh, and a little driveline shortening. OK, pretty much everything gets changed.

The beauty of the modification is the increase in gearset size and the availability of factory electric lockers. You don't need to install an ARB if you get the right 3rd member. You're also more likely to find a Toyota 3rd member than a Land Rover part in the vast majority of the world.

The chances of you breaking a properly engineered Toyota shaft are pretty much nil. I know guys who run 39" tires with them in hardcore mud-bashing with no problems. If you want never-worry-about-it engineering, this is probably the route to go.

That said, I think the 24 spline axles would be more than sufficient for overland travel and some pretty decent wheeling. That's the route I'm taking. In fact, I'm going to stay with the stock 10-spline axles in front and carry a spare set just in case. I very well may go with 24 splines in the front eventually, but that's as far as I plan on going.

For the amount of money you are looking at investing, a Salisbury rear axle with an ARB is a very nice modification. Add 24 spline axles in the front, and you can probably forget that you even have axles except when you lock in the hubs.

You have options. Just don't blow the entire build budget on the axles.

 

[revor]

What he said (Alaska Mike)

you can pretty much count on nearly zero failure with the 30 spline while overlanding. All the things that Apply to the Seriestrek conversion apply to the Rovertracks conversion, ours are for coilers Jim's are for Leafers.

A Late model 110 axle can be easily converted to 30 spline but is there a need? the Carrier is really strong so some serious 24 spline shafts might be all that is required but to be honest if you don't lock it i doubt you'll break the stock shafts. The front is a different story. Leaving the diffs 3.54 will leave you with the strongest gearset available for the rover diff and they aren't all that bad, four pin 24 spline carrier for the front and now the front diff is pretty strong. 24 spline axles out to the AEU2522 CV that came in all 110's up to 1992 (?) and you're in good shape even with an ARB (if you're nice about it)

Or Toyota conversion:
http://www.rovertracks.com/tech/index.html

The price on the Toy conversion for the front has been reduced by $225

If starting from scratch the Toy in the front might be a nice solution. Even the rear for that matter, how many Toyota minitrucks die because their diffs disintegrate? And how over loaded do they all seem to be when we see them running around. The spindles on a newer Sals are the same as a rover diff so load carrying isn't an issure there. You get bigger stuff all around and the price is comperable to building a Rover diff or a Salisbury if your handy with a Drill, grinder and a Welder (or can bribe someone who is)

 

[Mercedesrover]

As far as the Seriestrek axles go, the only custom parts are the axle shafts, the housing work, and machining of the stub shafts. Oh, and a little driveline shortening. OK, pretty much everything gets changed.

The driveshafts stay the same with the Toyota conversion. You need to machine the center of the Toyota flange as well as re-drill the bolt pattern to fit the Rover driveshaft. But even if you do pop a diff in the bush, you can transfer that flange to the new one.

And like Mike said, going to Toyota route almost eliminates the possibility for an axle/diff failure unless you're REALLY bashing on them. There's a guy in Lebanon with this conversion in a DII on 42's and HAMMERING his truck with zero failures.

The only part that makes me just a bit nervous is the rear stub axles that need to be bored 0.030" or so. They're pretty thin to begin with. I've never heard of one breaking but I carry an extra bored stub with me just the same. Apart from that, do it once, do it right and forget about it. If there's one think on my trucks I don't have to worry about, it's the axles.

jim

Edit: This truck is on a Toyota conversion and Keith's axles.

If he can do this with a heavy Rangie I'm pretty sure I won't break anything with my little 88" running the dirt roads!

 

[revor]

Apart from that, do it once, do it right and forget about it. If there's one think on my trucks I don't have to worry about, it's the axles.

jim

I just love it when you are so forceful!!!

We only bore bout .010" on the late model stubs.. They seem to deal with it fine.

 

[Mercedesrover]

I just love it when you are so forceful!!!

We only bore bout .010" on the late model stubs.. They seem to deal with it fine.

I know....I sound like a broken record. I just really like this option.

The Series stubs seem to run around 1.265" (like they're a clean bore...not.) I usually punch them out to 1.295". At that they still can be a tight fit. On both my trucks I had the shafts on-hand when I bored the stubs just to make sure.

 

[revor]

I know....I sound like a broken record. I just really like this option.

Me too, it just makes sense when you look at the numbers! Many of my customers have expressed that the conversion is a good excuse to buy new tools and learn to use them:sombrero:

Here's another one, in milder moment.

 

[TeriAnn]

This thread has been an interesting read and somewhat of an education as to what solutions are out there today that weren't around 20-30 years ago.

I've pretty much been in the "if it doesn't brake don't fool with it" school and the school that says you can't properly learn how to identify & drive the best approaches with locked diffs.

I've tended drive stock until something breaks, replace it with new stock and if it breaks a second time upgrade what breaks. Land Rovers are quite capable out of the box if you learn how to drive them.

After breaking 6 rear axles I finally imported a Salisbury rear axle assembly from the UK in 1996. I went ahead and set the axle up with an ARB to get the stronger carrier and because I got tired of getting stuck with one front wheel spinning and one rear wheel spinning. Plus I figured that in the previous 18 years of driving that Land Rover I had pretty much figured out how to take approaches in it with open diffs. That rear Salisbury served me well during the last 12 years without any problems. Last year I swapped in new heavy duty 24 spline axles just for insurance. The old axles were used when I got the Salisbury & I have been rough on them on occasion since then. I had the money at the time and decided it was easier to swap a pair of axles in the driveway than having to mail order replacement axles while out on the trail.

I got along fine with 10 splines up front until I got an automatic torque biasing front diff. In 1997 I picked up a new Quaife for about half the wholesale price. In 1998 I broke a front axle going through some deep snow and got to make a field replacement in a Moab camp ground, after mail ordering replacement parts. Then around 2002 I replaced a broken front R&P and found a twisted front axle. It seems the automatic torque biasing diff is harder on the front drive train than an open diff. But I like to work my front wheels in mud and loose small rocks and I like the way the automatic torque biasing diff helps my LR go in the direction I point my wheels. So at this point I recommend either leaving the front stock or do an axle upgrade when doing a diff upgrade.

The stars came together in a fortunate way in 2007 so I was able to install a set of SeriesTrek 24 spline front axles, a 24 spline TruTrac (It would have cost nearly $1000 to convert the Quaife to 24 spline) and the beefier 4.75:1 R&P. This is part of my "if it breaks twice, upgrade it" policy.

At the same time I also replaced my front & rear propshafts with stronger ones from Great Basin Rovers that had high angle U joints and longer slip joints. I had been experiencing problems with my front propshaft. It once ran out of travel and stripped the pinion nut off my front pinion gear.

In between the first front axle breakage & the second the 2.25L four banger was replaced with a Ford 302 (Summer 1999). So far, the drive train has hung together problem free. I'll probably keep the drive train unchanged as long as nothing breaks a second time after the engine swap.

My philosophy is start out stock (except 109s need an immediate 24 spline upgrade), learn to drive the stock vehicle to either its limits or the ones you do not wish to exceed. Where you exceed the vehicle's limits, upgrade what breaks or limits what you want to do. A lot of people mistake their own driving limits for vehicle limits and use that as an excuse to gear up with extreme off road gear.

My approach is a slow approach and may leave you low on part brags for your signature, but I think it is a very good way to learn a truck and get the best out of it for minimum cost.

Of course if you need a full blown expedition rig instantly you can always throw lots of money & parts at a rig and hope everything works together properly when finished.

Anyway I just wanted to offer a minimalist approach to the mix as yet another alternative.

 

[Alaska Mike]

I think TeriAnn's approach is very valid, and one I (mostly) subscribe to. I see way too many wheelers installing huge tires and fullsize axles, without ever learning what their vehicle is capable of in stock form. Most magazines perpetuate this trend, and the collective opinion is that you have to spend a lot of money or be a custom fabricator to wheel.

That said, I also bow to the hard-earned knowledge of others. I don't want to reinvent the wheel or, more accurately, re-enact the wheel's invention- especially out in the bush. If the consensus is that a particular component isn't up to the task, I look at other options.

 

[TeriAnn]

That said, I also bow to the hard-earned knowledge of others. I don't want to reinvent the wheel or, more accurately, re-enact the wheel's invention- especially out in the bush. If the consensus is that a particular component isn't up to the task, I look at other options.

Makes sense to me. But you need to realize that historically if you mentioned things like coil conversion or engine conversion in Series Land Rover country before about 2000, you risked being lynched by the Series Land Rover stalwarts.

In '96 I had to import a Salisbury from the UK because I couldn't find one in the States.

So I had been driving my Land Rover for a decade and a half before I developed the intestinal fortitude and buck the Land Rover peer group with non-factory modifications.

Up until around 2000 the consensus amongst the Series Land Rover establishment was to stay with stock parts because the factory knows best. There wasn't anyone talking about non-rover options other than Scotty advocating Chevy 6 cyl engine conversions using the LR gearbox.

I developed my philosophy about modifications as I went along. Back before the mid to late '90s, there just wasn't anyone visible out there advocating non-factory LR modification.

 

[michaelgroves]

I have to admit that Toyota gear sure looks more robust. Putting a ARB it a Toyota diff would give some peace of mind with out going overboard on Heavy Duty.

In fairness, that pic shows a 4.1 ratio pinion, which is quite a bit smaller than the stock 3.54.

Seriously, for expedition use, the completely stock Salisbury is more than adequate, even with the stock 24-spline half-shafts. The centre doesn't need strengthening with an ARB, and you probably don't need a locker for an expedition, but if you do decide to fit a locker, the Salisbury and its shafts will almost certainly do just fine.

The stock front axle is likewise only a problem if:
a) you switch to a punier low ratio c/w & pinion, or;
b) you fit it with a locker and drive it harshly.

The latter can be mitigated by upgrading the CVs and shafts, as previously discussed.

Say I'm in Southern Africa and silly me, I break an axel or something. What parts would be a stock size (or easily modified) of either LR or Toyota for replacement to limp home?

"Limp home" means different things in different circumstances. You can break just about anything we've discussed in this thread (perhaps other than really grenading a CV), and still just drive a few hundred kilometres on the good axle. Travelling in convoy with another vehicle (even on an ad hoc basis) makes this viable even when the roads are quite bad.

If you're on some hellish section of trail, then maybe there's no such thing as "limping", but in reality, that's not the usual nature of long-distance expeditions.

Choosing what spare parts to carry is an art form. Weight is the ultimate limiting factor, but there are several others. In making the decision about each part I might want to carry, I assess (according to my best guesses), the following factors:

1. The likelihood of failure
2. The consequences of failure (does it cripple the truck, for example?)
   -
3. The weight (and volume)
4. The local availability of the part
5. The repairability in the field (lots of things can be bodged with a temporary fix)
6. The cost of the part

The first two factors encourage me to carry the part, the rest encourage me not to.

Perhaps slightly off-topic, but I also don't subscribe to the theory of carrying a weaker or used or worn part as a spare - I prefer to run with the weaker and carry the good one as a spare. That way, your backup is a known value, so when there is a failure you know where you stand. But I know there are compelling arguments to do the opposite, too!

Toyota parts are more widely available than LR parts, as you would imagine, but both can be obtained almost anywhere. The only real disadvantages of having a mix of parts is that it will be more of a run-around to find mixed spares, and also, you have to know all the details of the cuckoo parts (preferably part numbers as well as the details of the donor vehicle), because they can't just be looked up by vehicle model.

 

[revor]

There wasn't anyone talking about non-rover options other than Scotty advocating Chevy 6 cyl engine conversions using the LR gearbox.

I developed my philosophy about modifications as I went along. Back before the mid to late '90s, there just wasn't anyone visible out there advocating non-factory LR modification.

Don't forget the Iron Duke 2.5 four banger my first 2A had..

Those where the days!!

Most people thought people like you, Timm or myself were commiting heinous crimes against nature, spouting blasphemy about brand components that might be better suited for the rigors of trail work and that these components could be actually put into a Land Rover!!

I removed myself from their criticism by banging away in the shop and plugging my ears with the telephone of which I ended up spending untold hours on the phone with Cooper about how we might save the uneducated Land Rover world from living with mediocrity!!
And generally arguing about what the best solution for a Rover driveline was.. :sombrero:

To think that those who would place such shame and banishment seem to think thaat now it is a fine thing to stuff a 1.8L VW diesel in an 88"!

Really.. whatever floats your boat!:jumping: