cruiseroutfit
Well-known member
FJ Cruiser.
Beware of fake Safari Snorkels hitting the market.
- Thread starter cruiseroutfit
- Start date
FJ Cruiser.
cruisertoy
Explorer
I've said it before here and I'll say it again, the Chinese can make a lot of nice stuff. In my industry, like most, a lot of stuff is going overseas because of labor rates. Materials are almost even, but labor is where the savings come in. My main Chinese supplier had actually started bringing some parts back to be produced in the US because when your doing enough volume on an injection molding machine for a part with no secondary assembly, the US can produce the parts for just about as cheap. Then they save the shipping. The parts I have produced over there are top notch. Until 2010 we had two suppliers of one type of component. In 2009 we had our first major recall involving 40k units. Every single part came from our US supplier. At the start of the project both companies were given the same exact information and drawings.
The thing that some of the Chinese companies lack is the knowledge and desire to innovate. Most new products on the market today are just old products that have been changed in some way. Ipod bring out a new Nano and they add a camera and a few other thigs to the existing product. They didn't reinvent the wheel. Some Chinese companies just decide to knock off products and profit on their labor savings. Illegal in most cases-Yep. Bad product- not necesarily. Bad for the market- not always. Sometimes it forces companies that have gotten lazy to innovate further or put lean practices in place in their own production. It can even make legit companies more profitable.
And you can never go wrong buying from Kurt
The thing that some of the Chinese companies lack is the knowledge and desire to innovate. Most new products on the market today are just old products that have been changed in some way. Ipod bring out a new Nano and they add a camera and a few other thigs to the existing product. They didn't reinvent the wheel. Some Chinese companies just decide to knock off products and profit on their labor savings. Illegal in most cases-Yep. Bad product- not necesarily. Bad for the market- not always. Sometimes it forces companies that have gotten lazy to innovate further or put lean practices in place in their own production. It can even make legit companies more profitable.
And you can never go wrong buying from Kurt
dieselcruiserhead
16 Years on ExPo. Whoa!!
I've said it before here and I'll say it again, the Chinese can make a lot of nice stuff. In my industry, like most, a lot of stuff is going overseas because of labor rates. Materials are almost even, but labor is where the savings come in. My main Chinese supplier had actually started bringing some parts back to be produced in the US because when your doing enough volume on an injection molding machine for a part with no secondary assembly, the US can produce the parts for just about as cheap. Then they save the shipping. The parts I have produced over there are top notch. Until 2010 we had two suppliers of one type of component. In 2009 we had our first major recall involving 40k units. Every single part came from our US supplier. At the start of the project both companies were given the same exact information and drawings.
The thing that some of the Chinese companies lack is the knowledge and desire to innovate. Most new products on the market today are just old products that have been changed in some way. Ipod bring out a new Nano and they add a camera and a few other thigs to the existing product. They didn't reinvent the wheel. Some Chinese companies just decide to knock off products and profit on their labor savings. Illegal in most cases-Yep. Bad product- not necesarily. Bad for the market- not always. Sometimes it forces companies that have gotten lazy to innovate further or put lean practices in place in their own production. It can even make legit companies more profitable.
And you can never go wrong buying from Kurt
I also share the same opinion. I have a good friend who does exactly this, basically overseas gear manufacturing and is in China, India, you name it several times a year and I actually think they innovate very well from what I know and I am very impressed with some of the stuff that comes out China these days. I think the days of really cheap China crap are sort of long gone unless the manufacturer chose to do this.. Like they did in this case..
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Scott Brady
Founder
Lots of things are made in China. I do not have a particular issue with that (though I make it a point to buy from traditional craftsman if at all possible).
What is the issue is a direct copy of someone's product. Of course you can sell a product cheaper when you have no R&D costs, no prototyping, no testing, no design department, etc.
Like I have said before. It is the consumer that makes the difference. If all you buy is cheap knock-off goods, then what funds future innovation and quality?
Here is a picture I took at SEMA of a knock-off bumper. This is criminal IMO. Everyone in that booth should have been arrested
What is the issue is a direct copy of someone's product. Of course you can sell a product cheaper when you have no R&D costs, no prototyping, no testing, no design department, etc.
Like I have said before. It is the consumer that makes the difference. If all you buy is cheap knock-off goods, then what funds future innovation and quality?
Here is a picture I took at SEMA of a knock-off bumper. This is criminal IMO. Everyone in that booth should have been arrested
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cruiseroutfit
Well-known member
Sure they "can", and when companies outsource their manufacturing to China using their own R&D and enginerring as well as quality control, we can have satisfactory results as shown by many products on the market. I'm completely fine with that, it business and many of my favorite goods are offsprings of this economic factor. However when some random manufacture starts reverse engineering snorkels having likely never even installed a snorkel or a FJC Cruiser for that matter... you end up with this:
Yes those are pinholes in the plastic, all along the back seam. Aside from the actual issue of the holes, how well do you think that seam is going to hole up over timeThis is one of the snorkels from roninjiro
To his credit he sent out a replacement (from FJCruiserForums.com)
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Life_in_4Lo
Explorer
****** is wrong with people?! This is the attitude nowadays?
The reason cheap, sweatshop Chinese labor is acceptable and those companies can now "innovate" is because US consumers have bought a crapload of junk, knockoffs and killed real businesses. We have contributed massively to the development of Chinese infrastructure while dismantling our own.
It is one thing to see this and accept it as unavoidable. It is quite another to defend it!
It is unavoidable to buy Chinese. However, don't defend this type of thing!
You want to know what's ethically wrong but legal? (or illegal until caught mentality)
then do business the chinese way.
The reason cheap, sweatshop Chinese labor is acceptable and those companies can now "innovate" is because US consumers have bought a crapload of junk, knockoffs and killed real businesses. We have contributed massively to the development of Chinese infrastructure while dismantling our own.
It is one thing to see this and accept it as unavoidable. It is quite another to defend it!
It is unavoidable to buy Chinese. However, don't defend this type of thing!
You want to know what's ethically wrong but legal? (or illegal until caught mentality)
then do business the chinese way.
TangoBlue
American Adventurist
My humble observation FWIW...
I recall my father cautioning not to buy that "Japanese, Mickey Mouse Junk" as a kid about a half a flippin' century ago.
Now many American consumers and the auto media consider Japanese products some of the highest quality products available today. I know I'm pretty fond of my rugged, durable Toyota truck. [So how about that DAD!]
A bout a decade ago Korea's entry into the auto market was plagued with questionable offerings. A few years later and look at them now...
How much longer for Chinese products to reach that same marque?
I recall my father cautioning not to buy that "Japanese, Mickey Mouse Junk" as a kid about a half a flippin' century ago.
Now many American consumers and the auto media consider Japanese products some of the highest quality products available today. I know I'm pretty fond of my rugged, durable Toyota truck. [So how about that DAD!]
A bout a decade ago Korea's entry into the auto market was plagued with questionable offerings. A few years later and look at them now...
How much longer for Chinese products to reach that same marque?
cruiseroutfit
Well-known member
We've had this discussion albeit in a slightly different frame of reference here on ExPo in the past and I do agree, China will eventually gain some degree of notoriety for producing quality goods. However they will only do it through innovation and their own R&D, not through low quality reproductions sold at an insane markup. Japan made their name through their superb engineering and innovative renditions of older common designs, something we are yet to see out of China in any quantifiable scale imo. We have shown that their production facilities can produce quality components and on the flip side can produce absolute junk that is a total waste of money even when sold for even a fraction of the legit product. Add to that the ethics of making a carbon copy design of a product and you've got a losing situation imo.
To say "there is no other way to build a snorkel" is beyond close-minded, there are a handful of examples on the market most recently the AEV offerings.
Life_in_4Lo
Explorer
There is a big difference between S.Korea or Japan and the economic carnage that China is.
Don't flatter China by putting it in the same position as the other two.
First of all, China is not even a free country. Why the would anyone defend their unethical business policies when it's supporting policies that are third world?
Currently, the Chinese industrial business plan is to buy up tech in order to compete.
For example, the recent purchase of Saab for the tooling and trade secret manufacturing tech.
The purchase (and gutting) of Saangyoung Motors for trade and tech secrets.
There is no "development" of their own tech. That's not the business model that made them a world powerhouse. Buying, stealing and doing on the backs of their billions of cheap labor citizens is their plan.
The routine poor quality and purposefully cheating consumers is a matter of course. Lead, illegal fillers and toxic manufacturing are all horrendous issues not seen at this level or any level... ever.
That they get away with it just supports their way of doing things.
Rant over just because I am getting sicker thinking about it
roninjiro
Explorer
Sure they "can", and when companies outsource their manufacturing to China using their own R&D and enginerring as well as quality control, we can have satisfactory results as shown by many products on the market. I'm completely fine with that, it business and many of my favorite goods are offsprings of this economic factor. However when some random manufacture starts reverse engineering snorkels having likely never even installed a snorkel or a FJC Cruiser for that matter... you end up with this:
Yes those are pinholes in the plastic, all along the back seam. Aside from the actual issue of the holes, how well do you think that seam is going to hole up over timeThis is one of the snorkels from roninjiro
Ok, please don't bash me for defending the products i sell... ask the guy that posted what happened after he found that problem... if you are gonna bash please post the whole story.
he notified me via email about the issue, i asked him to notify everyone on the forum of his issue and if they have the same problem notify me, if i didn't he would have not said anything. he was actually surprised i recommended it. i told him to send the word out about any defects so i can notify my supplier with proof.
it is hard enough trying to bring something to the usa that guys actually use and know the guy that sold it to him stands by the product he sales (ie.... me)
i also like how you pointed staight to my auction. yes i sell them and yes.... all of my customers are happy with their purchases. if they are unhappy with it or have trouble, just like everyone else they can bring it to my attention, and i we will work toward a solution of refund or exchange.
also i see it as this, if i am unsure of a product i don't buy it. i sell products that i would use, if i had the vehicle to fit it.
by the way, again i will say it. there are things on this forum that are constantly sold that are copies from asia, but the quality is there and no one cares. what i sell, i have had 1 (one) buyer that has had an issue that was resolved in a timely matter and he is happy like this smiley face :wings: . this was my favorite forum up until now. i started selling these things b/c this forum brought out an interest in traveling the world expo style. i started buying this stuff so i can get gear made vehicle specific for the xterra crowd, that i could use in my travels. but after this slight conflict i don't know anymore.
fwiw, ebay is a hotspot for outsourced goods that are cloned.
last thing, that pic, just means that the material did not cover in the mold the way it should have, or use of less material than needed. because of this i now inspect everything i ship out.
roninjiro
Explorer
please also note, i specifically sell the snorkel tops b/c of the other forums i use. one being a xterra forum where many guys want a cheaper snorkel top for their homemade snorkel kits. i also do not advertise my business in any forum, if someone stumbles on it on ebay so be it. i am not what you put me out to be.
Scott Brady
Founder
Not sure I understand. . . What is it that the "forum" did to upset you?
The forum is a sum of its users. Users will not always agree. We only have rules for the method of disagreement, not against disagreement in general.
roninjiro
Explorer
ok bad choice of words, it just was a real downer to be called out by a certain member about my products, at the same time i did the same in an earlier post and i am sorry for that. everyone is entitled to their own opinion but i don't appreciated being bashed from this member. i am not here to advertise my products; i sell my products on ebay, and only go by interest i have received. this is the reason i started my business. not everyone is gonna agree and i understand that, and with that said this is the last time i will be returning to this thread.
i just wanted people to understand whats going on, on the other end..
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GrassCat
Adventurer
I know you're highly respect on here, but that statement is just wrong.
You're saying sticking a piece of paper on a rig's fender and drilling a 3-4" hole along with a 4-5 5/16" holes Vs a hard template is over complicate? For who, You? How about the average Joe or Jill?
Answer me this.
How many hole have you had to elongate or make oversize using a paper template over the dozens and dozens installation?