Bolt on vs. weld on sliders
- Thread starter bigreen505
- Start date
VikingVince
Explorer
waskillywabbit said:
I agree with that. Metallurgically, a PROPERLY welded joint is stronger than a simliar joint created with a bolt...because proper welding creates one contiguous piece of metal. And...MIG welding will not weaken the frame rails.
Last edited:
RAM5500 CAMPERTHING
OG Portal Member #183
waskillywabbit said:
No, i dont think so, but this was brought up in a conversation and i am sure some real ASS could make a legal point that it is!
waskillywabbit said:
Ummmm, no holes for the Hannas! Their design is amazing!
waskillywabbit said:
YOUR ON! I will take the 5 ulbolts and 6 bolts that hold mine off in less then 30mins. In fact, i just did that last week to add a small spacer to them (long story). So, when do you want to do this?
waskillywabbit said:
Again, no holes here!
cruiseroutfit
Well-known member
Always been a fan of weld-on, can't say I've run across a reason to take them off in the past 5 years on either of my rigs... not to mention all the ones we've built.
Bolt versus a "properly" done weld... weld anyday of the week. I use a 45 degree scab plate on the frame, and or at least gussets. I don't know of any frames (common to us) that are heat treated, so thats not even a remote issue...
In alot of cases a weld-on will not only have a better asthetic (IMHO of course) look, but also more clearance. This is obviously a generalization, but many of the sliders out there, including the Hanna have bars lower than they would have to be in the case of a weld-on.
My Tacoma ones...
Bolt versus a "properly" done weld... weld anyday of the week. I use a 45 degree scab plate on the frame, and or at least gussets. I don't know of any frames (common to us) that are heat treated, so thats not even a remote issue...
In alot of cases a weld-on will not only have a better asthetic (IMHO of course) look, but also more clearance. This is obviously a generalization, but many of the sliders out there, including the Hanna have bars lower than they would have to be in the case of a weld-on.
My Tacoma ones...
Attachments
waskillywabbit
Observer
VikingVince said:
:wings: :wings: :wings:
I don't just play a fabrication engineer online...I play one at work too. :sport_box
As my first response said...personal preference. And I've never seen any Hanna sliders that bolt on and the only bolt ons that I've seen have been THROUGH the frame, not around it.
:elkgrin:
goodtimes
Expedition Poseur
I've had 'em both, and prefer bolt on. They are a bigger PITA to make, but you can take them off and modify/repair them easier. There is also the question of the HAZ when welding to the frame. Personally, I have never seen a frame fail from having a set of sliders welded to it...nor have I seen a frame fail because of a set of holes drilled through it to mount sliders.
Something to consider if using bolt on sliders on a vehicle with a boxed frame...you will need to sleeve the holes to avoid crushing the frame (added time and $$$). This is not an issue with frames that are not boxed. Some frames have enough holes in accessable locations to allow you to avoid drilling at all...others do not. You will have to look at your particular vehicle and see.
Something to consider if using bolt on sliders on a vehicle with a boxed frame...you will need to sleeve the holes to avoid crushing the frame (added time and $$$). This is not an issue with frames that are not boxed. Some frames have enough holes in accessable locations to allow you to avoid drilling at all...others do not. You will have to look at your particular vehicle and see.
datrupr
Expedition Leader
Now, I was having this debate with myself a few months back. I really wanted to go with bolt on, but doing a ton of research, I found that the only bolt on sliders for the Trooper you have to drill through the frame. I did not like that idea much. Then, I sat down with Crawler#976 and we checked out the frame of my Trooper for a plan of attack on my sliders and we both decided that the best way to get good quality sliders on the truck was to weld them on. But, we could reinforce the welds with bolts through the existing holes in the frame, but that does not make much sense. Now, I just need to buy the steel, drive up to Chino Valley, show Mark my design, buy him a few beers and have him weld up my sliders. One of these days, one of these days.
Scott Brady
Founder
bootzilla
Adventurer
I was a little naive about sliders - for my unibody Land Rover, I had these really slick sliders that were bolt-on, but required no drilling, except of a hole in one of the drain plugs in the floor.
There were backing plates that slid into the casting holes in the unibody, then you just sandwiched the bar to the unibody structure - simple, and surprisingly strong...they were insanely expensive, though (I have an unused set if anybody is interested...).
So when I got the Trooper, I thought - "oh, I'll just go out and buy some sliders and bolt them up..." I just though that was the common way of doing it.
I wish someone made a bolt-on that requires limited or no drilling for the ol' Troop. - if you end up finding anything BigGreen - let us know, even if it is a custom job - the idea itself might help...
There were backing plates that slid into the casting holes in the unibody, then you just sandwiched the bar to the unibody structure - simple, and surprisingly strong...they were insanely expensive, though (I have an unused set if anybody is interested...).
So when I got the Trooper, I thought - "oh, I'll just go out and buy some sliders and bolt them up..." I just though that was the common way of doing it.
I wish someone made a bolt-on that requires limited or no drilling for the ol' Troop. - if you end up finding anything BigGreen - let us know, even if it is a custom job - the idea itself might help...
calamaridog
Expedition Leader
If the bank owns your truck I suggest bolt vs. weld, otherwise, it's just personal preference.
asteffes
Explorer
So a good friend is fabbing some bolt-on sliders for my Tacoma. We didn't want to weld the frame out of concern that it might damage the factory heat treatment and create weak spots along the frame. We also didn't want to bolt through both vertical walls of the frame, which is fully-boxed in the front half on the '05+ Tacomas.
Instead, he came up with an idea to use the front body mount as an attachment point rather than bolting through the fully-boxed front frame members. I've seen sliders bolted through the box, and always thought that a hard impact to the front section of the slider(s) could result in the frame caving in a bit as the backing plate is pulled outward. Of course, with our design, the body mount could suffer damage, too. I'm not sure which is worse: snapping a body mount or causing the frame member to be not-a-box anymore.
I suppose one could engineer the attachment point to break before the frame gives way, but the idea of compressing the two vertical walls of the frame members didn't strike either of us as a good idea. We're still in the planning stages and I would appreciate any feedback.
Instead, he came up with an idea to use the front body mount as an attachment point rather than bolting through the fully-boxed front frame members. I've seen sliders bolted through the box, and always thought that a hard impact to the front section of the slider(s) could result in the frame caving in a bit as the backing plate is pulled outward. Of course, with our design, the body mount could suffer damage, too. I'm not sure which is worse: snapping a body mount or causing the frame member to be not-a-box anymore.
I suppose one could engineer the attachment point to break before the frame gives way, but the idea of compressing the two vertical walls of the frame members didn't strike either of us as a good idea. We're still in the planning stages and I would appreciate any feedback.
cruiseroutfit
Well-known member
asteffes said:
What leads you to beleive the Toyota frame was "heat treated" in the first place? I find it hard to beleive Toyota does a post-fabrication heat treatment on the mild steel used in a frames construction. And even if they did, that does deliniate the use of weld... it just means you have to be more considerate of the type of heat treating that was perfomed.
There is no doubt in my mind that properly welded (once again many factors there), are going to cause little if any frame problems. In fact it could be argued that a properly built (there I go using that word again
slider system could in fact increase the strengh of the chassis. Afterall you are essentially adding an additional member. I can buy the "easy to remove", "easy to service/paint" idea... but the "not safe" idea doesn't really fly IMHO.
devinsixtyseven
Explorer
old thread resurrection but i had a couple pennies to throw in...
the big differences arent really price or attachment (weld vs bolt). if youre buying them ready-made, you probably dont weld yourself...which means the price difference between weld/bolt will be eaten up paying someone else to weld them, unless you have a buddy to help you. weld vs bolt...plenty of people with both, plenty with failed designs from both camps.
the important thing is to use the frame (all of the frame, not just the main rails) to support the leverage produced by dropping your 6K# truck on a roughly 1' lever arm attached to the frame rail. improper gusseting (or lack thereof), small or too few attachment points, or improperly placed attachment points can (and eventually will) lead to a bent frame. avoid "can openers"...thin gussets on top...they put a lot of pressure on a very small area. if possible, angle your attachments to the frame and put a double gusset on the bottom to spread the load. if you have a weak frame (tundras are c-channel, not boxed like tacos), mount the attachments and gussets to a thicker piece of material and weld or bolt that piece to the frame to better spread the load. the sandwich method mentioned previously has been around a long time, it's common when building a roll cage in a unibody vehicle, and it works great for attaching sliders to a c-channel frame or unibody since it spreads the load better.
if you bolt them on and dont ever intend to take them off, glue 'em in place with the bolts (seam sealer or whatever). the rust stays out, and instead of two bolts in tension at each mount, you have a couple bolts backing up (in my case) a 6x6 adhesive patch.
if you diy or are inspecting different models, look for designs that use the crossmembers for support. the frame is much less likely to deform if there's something to counteract the torque about the frame at the attachment point.
the last thing is make sure the fore and aft ends are properly supported. the tail end in particular, if you have wheel to wheel sliders, can be difficult to link to the frame to the point where some manufacturers in past left that critical support point out of their design, resulting in bent sliders and crushed quarterpanels.
they dont need to be built heavy, nor do they need to be bolted vs welded, just properly designed and mated to the rig.
-sean
the big differences arent really price or attachment (weld vs bolt). if youre buying them ready-made, you probably dont weld yourself...which means the price difference between weld/bolt will be eaten up paying someone else to weld them, unless you have a buddy to help you. weld vs bolt...plenty of people with both, plenty with failed designs from both camps.
the important thing is to use the frame (all of the frame, not just the main rails) to support the leverage produced by dropping your 6K# truck on a roughly 1' lever arm attached to the frame rail. improper gusseting (or lack thereof), small or too few attachment points, or improperly placed attachment points can (and eventually will) lead to a bent frame. avoid "can openers"...thin gussets on top...they put a lot of pressure on a very small area. if possible, angle your attachments to the frame and put a double gusset on the bottom to spread the load. if you have a weak frame (tundras are c-channel, not boxed like tacos), mount the attachments and gussets to a thicker piece of material and weld or bolt that piece to the frame to better spread the load. the sandwich method mentioned previously has been around a long time, it's common when building a roll cage in a unibody vehicle, and it works great for attaching sliders to a c-channel frame or unibody since it spreads the load better.
if you bolt them on and dont ever intend to take them off, glue 'em in place with the bolts (seam sealer or whatever). the rust stays out, and instead of two bolts in tension at each mount, you have a couple bolts backing up (in my case) a 6x6 adhesive patch.
if you diy or are inspecting different models, look for designs that use the crossmembers for support. the frame is much less likely to deform if there's something to counteract the torque about the frame at the attachment point.
the last thing is make sure the fore and aft ends are properly supported. the tail end in particular, if you have wheel to wheel sliders, can be difficult to link to the frame to the point where some manufacturers in past left that critical support point out of their design, resulting in bent sliders and crushed quarterpanels.
they dont need to be built heavy, nor do they need to be bolted vs welded, just properly designed and mated to the rig.
-sean
waskillywabbit
Observer
devinsixtyseven said:
I could not agree more. Adding gussets that are vertically in line with the slider mount create a point load, or "can opener" as you call it, if placed in line vertically either on top or bottom. The lbs/in are a high number. The key to adding gussets if you add them is to angle them as you say. To maximize the length you are spreading the load out across...gusset from the horizontal...or from the sides. The lbs/in are a lower number.
:elkgrin: