Broken frame

[dhackney]

If you are going to replace the frame I'd go for the custom and keep everything else the same.

I agree this is the best option.

And I need to point out that this suggestion came from John and the All Terrain Warriors team.

If you go with another stock frame you are going to have to make all the same mods and it's unknown if those mods played a factor.

I think with the distance between the fore and aft load points of our 3 point pivot frame you would want to reinforce the stock frame even if you had a relatively light load. Michel has reported distortion in the rear of his Fuso frame with a similar 3 point pivot design and he is carrying a lot less weight than we are (at least I am assuming he is not carrying a significant percentage of the solar system's known mass).

How much weight do you have to remove to ensure it doesn't happen again?

Has my wife been feeding you questions? I don't think there is anyone who could really answer that question without a whole lot of finite stress analysis computation time. I honestly have no idea.

A custom frame can be made from thicker metal and fit your camper while remaining a single piece.

I agree this is a significant advantage of that option.

How thick is the frame on a fuso, it looks quite thin for such a heavy truck.

4.5mm It looks like paper next to a big MB or MAN overland rig's frame.

If we put a custom frame under it I plan to use 8mm or 10mm.

Whats is the GVW?

This info is from the data page I built here: http://www.hackneys.com/mitsu/index-specs.htm

Note that the weight distributions, body weight, etc., here are from the Fuso sample data, they are not for our rig.

Our actual weight distribution when we pulled out in June 2007 was:
Chassis (everything except the camper) % of total weight: 63%
Camper % of total weight: 37%
Front axle % of total: 36%
Rear axle % of total: 64%
Left side % of total: 51%
Right side % of total: 49%
Left front % of total: 19%
Right front % of total: 17%
Left rear % of total: 33%
Right rear % of total: 30%


I honestly have no idea how much we weigh now. We've been pulling weight off since the second week we were out, back in June of 2007. We've taken at least 1,000 pounds / 454 kilos off since then. Maybe more.

We have become very acustomed to the style of travel we have now, so I don't think we'd want to keep going with this chassis if it meant sacrificing a significant element of how we live.

Consequently, we'll either rebuild this chassis in a way where there will be no more worries about chassis capability or we'll move to a bigger chassis.

It's either that or we'll just get back on our bike.

 

[dhackney]

May I offer an "out of the box" suggestion / solution...

Have your local mechanics do the absolutly best job possible....and just keep travelling!

My guess that your efforts of returning your truck to California for inspection will only lead to disappointment. You know what the engineers are going to say! And...The likelihood of you getting some compensation from them....

I remember what my dad said when I told him that the lawnmover was broken...

OK! Fix it....Then get back to mowing the lawn! Or in your case...Keep exporing!

I'll bet you the bottle of tequila that Jay Shapiro owes me ( Don Julio 1942), that you'll be good for another year of travelling!

Either way! We (i'm going out on a limb and speaking for all the people that have been following your adventures) are rooting for you!

Joaquin,

Thank you so much for your kind words of support. You will never know how much they mean to us out here right now.

Our goals and reason for returning are not related to any engineering inspection of the chassis. It is my understanding that the Fuso engineering team is aware of the situation. I have had no (zero) contact with them so I have no idea of their goals, etc.

We had made the decision several weeks ago to return and rebuild the frame because we were and are convinced that the stock frame is simply not up to the task we have asked of it.

This is in no way, in our view, a defect or flaw in the Fuso or the work of the engineers who designed it. I believe we put too much mass on too small of a truck.

It was the result of pure ignorance from coming into a situation I knew nothing about and having, literally, a few weeks to research and design a solution. We learned something in the process and hopefully others can learn from our mistakes.

I continue to believe the Fuso is an excellent chassis for an expedition camper as long as you do as I say and not as I did and Bring Less Stuff.

We are not returning with any expectation or hope of any compensation from anyone. We've been 100% self-funded on this endeavor and don't expect that to change anytime soon unless we change our model of travel. We are returning so we can take this thing apart and decide whether to:
a) Replace the frame with a stock frame and probably then sell the Fuso chassis to someone else who would want to build on it. We'd take our payload and put it on a heavier chassis.
b) Replace the Fuso frame with a custom 8mm or 10mm frame that would be strong enough for the weight and the stresses of our 3 point pivot frame.

The existing frame looks like a pretzel when you are under the truck. In order to fix it, we must remove the camper and the pivot frame, which is a major proposition in the best of circumstances.

Our options are to do the work in a place like this:

Photo of the first location we planned to do the broken frame repair.

Or back in a shop such as the one we built it in (see our buildup photos here: http://www.hackneys.com/mitsu/index-buildup-photos.htm )

Our next stop is SE Asia and the quotes for shipping we were receiving for SA to SE Asia were not much cheaper than shipping back to the states and then going LA to SE Asia.

Our biggest loss here is time. We are traveling in a window of opportunity gated primarily by finances, our parents' health and grandchildren. That window could close on us at any time, especially around the health factor.

I cannot thank you enough for your words of support.

Be well,
Doug

PS - If I convince Jay to ship me the bottle of tequila for delivery to you in Baja I promise to save you at least one shot. :sombrero:

 

[tamangel]

WORT pivot frame..

I was talking with Rob Gray on pivot frames. Here's his response..

"I used a three-point system on the old truck
and that worked well. This time I've gone for a four-point (diamond) pattern
partly to spread the load more and partly to half the movement of the
chassis relative to the body.

IE on any given incline I figure that say a 10-degree twist with a
three-point system would equal two 5-degree twists with a four point system.
Therefore I could have less clearance between the body and chassis."

rob's site w/ construction diaries on both 'WORT's"

http://www.robgray.com/index_files/index_wot.php

Mike

 

[FusoFG]

Doug,

Sorry you had a problem with your camper. I'm glad no one was hurt. I hope everything works out and that the trip continues. If there's a silver lining it's that we get to learn from your experiences.

I read in one company's Body Builder manual (can't remember which one, but I read it online) a discussion about attaching a dump body to a cab and chassis.

The issue was when the dump body was raised and the entire payload was resting on the rear pivot.

The farther the rear pivot was behind the near axle the more the max payload had to be reduced.

I wonder if by extending the frame behind the rear axle aggravated the problem of concentrating the load on just the front 2 mounts and the rear pivot?

By extending the frame did that increase the leverage that the rear pivot exerts on the frame?

Would it have been better to lengthen the frame between the axles than behind the rear axle?

Obviously, this would reduce the break over angle.

Tom

 

[haven]

Doug,

I hope your extended stay in Riobamba has given you the chance to take in some wonderful Andean scenery, or perhaps take a bus ride south to Cuenca, a UNESCO World Heritage Trust site, and the spot where many of the best "panama" hats are made.

If Rt 60 remains closed, an alternative route to the coast would be to drive south on the Panamerican Highway and turn west at Zhud (rt 70). This road continues to Guayaquil.

Best wishes,
Chip Haven

 

[dhackney]

If there's a silver lining it's that we get to learn from your experiences.

We just talked about this today. They are very expensive lessons for us, but we hope that others can profit from our investment.

I wonder if by extending the frame behind the rear axle aggravated the problem of concentrating the load on just the front 2 mounts and the rear pivot?

By extending the frame did that increase the leverage that the rear pivot exerts on the frame?

Would it have been better to lengthen the frame between the axles than behind the rear axle?

Obviously, this would reduce the break over angle.

Yes, the physics involved did increase the stresses on the frame by the distance between the locations of the front mounts and the rear pivot.

If you look at the PDF of the frame drawings earlier in this thread you will notice that the FG frame (and most, if not all, of its competitors in this class of truck) tapers down in the rear. The stock frame was not strong enough to withstand the stresses of the fore/aft pitching of the load and the widely dispersed load points of our 3 point pivot frame.

The Fuso frame flexes so much it requires some type of system to isolate the camper box, etc., from the frame. It's quite a party down there at the frame level, so if you want your payload to survive, you've got to find a way to isolate it. We chose the 3 point pivot frame and I don't know if I'd change that right now. I don't know enough (as in zero) about 4 point systems or the more advanced systems used by All Terrain Warriors and others.

Based on our experience, people considering or building expedition vehicles on the (comparitively) lightweight trucks in this class should carefully consider reinforcing the frame during construction. This is especially true if the frame tapers in the rear.

The Fuso body builder's guide incluldes detailed instructions on frame reinforcement, including the step-down section.

We did extend the frame between the axles and aft of the rear axle. Breakover has not been an issue for us yet and we (amazingly) have not had any big issues with departure either. In this regard I'm referring to any "show stopper" incidents.

 

[dhackney]

Doug,

I hope your extended stay in Riobamba has given you the chance to take in some wonderful Andean scenery,

We have had the chance for some wonderful scenery, not all Andean. I hope to post on that soon on our trip thread.

or perhaps take a bus ride south to Cuenca, a UNESCO World Heritage Trust site, and the spot where many of the best "panama" hats are made.

Check out this page of our trip thread for Cuenca: http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10616&page=19

Or go direct to here to learn about the hats: http://www.hackneys.com/travel/ecuador/thehatman.pdf

We greatly enjoyed the city and barely scratched the surface. Recommended.

If Rt 60 remains closed, an alternative route to the coast would be to drive south on the Panamerican Highway and turn west at Zhud (rt 70). This road continues to Guayaquil.

Every time we talk about the current state of the routes to Guayaquil with a local all we get are rolled eyes and muttered curses. This is the rainy season, so basically all the routes from the Siearra to the coast are excercises in dancing with the landslides. All the roads south of here range from very bad to twist up the face and cross yourself bad according to the people who are driving them. We may actually go all the way back south and take the coast route to Guayaquil.

 

[dhackney]

Finito

Frame repair is complete.

Shots from yesterday.

Shots from today.

Frame break area.

Crack area, reinforcement of passenger side to hopefully prevent a break on that side.

We are heading for the Amazon basin tomorrow where I hope to have some time completely devoid of Fuso frame issues...

All they have there are anacondas and pirhanas, which right now all seem pretty tame. :yikes:

 

[haven]

The famous aggressiveness of Pirhana makes them easy to catch.
Pirhana soup is delicious.

I hope your lowland forest destination offers a way to climb up into
the forest canopy. The largest trees grow to a height of 40 meters
or more. It's a completely different perspective on the rainforest
and its inhabitants.

CHip Haven

 

[ThomD]

Doug,

I just want to thank you for taking so much time to share your experiences during what is surely be a very difficult time. You attitude of "work through the problem" rather than screaming about bad luck (or whatever) is astonishing.

Hang in there and good luck with the rest of the adventure.

 

[kerry]

Thanks for that update. I'm glad you have it up and running again. I'm sure I'm not the only one to feel guilty at learning important lessons from your misfortunes. How hard is it going to be to monitor the repair? When it broke it seemed like it took a while to be able to see the failure.

 

[kjp1969]

Doug,
It's great that you're taking all this in stride. "All in a day's work" for those repair guys indeed. Good luck on the rest of your trip!

 

[dhackney]

Thanks for that update. I'm glad you have it up and running again. I'm sure I'm not the only one to feel guilty at learning important lessons from your misfortunes.

Please don't feel guilty or anything of the sort. It has been my hope from the beginning of this entire overlanding chapter of our lives that others can learn what worked and what didn't. If one single person can avoid one or two of our mistakes, that is a very good thing.

We've left behind a trail of a heck of a lot of content, on the build web site, on our travel web site, and on this forum. It takes a lot of work to dig through it all, but I hope people who are really seriously interested in getting out here and seeing what you'll never, ever see back there can pick up enough from our mistakes to make the effort worthwhile.

How hard is it going to be to monitor the repair? When it broke it seemed like it took a while to be able to see the failure.

It will be easier because after the repair I could not fit the raw water tank back between the frame rails. Downside is we have ~45 gallons / 170 liters less water capacity. Upside is I can crawl under there and monitor the affected areas.

I really don't think the frame will crack or break where they repaired it. I think they did as good a job as could have been done. However, all we did is create yet another strong section of the frame, now quite long since their reinforcement joined two others. This means that any piece of the frame that is still stock, such as the section forward of our mid-frame extension, is now the weak point in the frame.

Needless to say, we will be driving very slowly and carefully to Guayaquil...

 

[dhackney]

Doug,

I just want to thank you for taking so much time to share your experiences during what is surely be a very difficult time. You attitude of "work through the problem" rather than screaming about bad luck (or whatever) is astonishing.

Hang in there and good luck with the rest of the adventure.

You are very welcome. I wanted other people to be able to learn from our mistakes and the consequences of our choices.

RE: working through the problem
There really aren't a lot of other options out here. I could beat my head against the wall or cry in my beer, but the next morning I'd still wake up to a broken truck.

In order to full time overland, it really helps to be realistic, pragmatic, at least a little bit positive, flexible, adaptable and resilient. There are times when you will be tested, and if you let yourself get into a downward spiral of self-pity, you can put yourself into a very challenging situation.

This is not to say that I haven't spent a few hours here and there listenting to Dylan's Blood on the Tracks...

 

[ntsqd]

Glad to hear that you are mobile once again!

FWIW any new frame needs more Section Modulus. Trying to do that through simply increased metal thickness is the least efficient method, though it will help with any pull-through or tear-out problems. Some thickening (mostly to reduce the stress riser that holes create) combined with an increase in the rail height will probably show itself to work the best.