Concealed Carry - What Have You Got?

[MOguy]

Right, because everybody with a gun is out to get a cop? This kind of bullsh!t is the main reason I never got a CCW permit, I can't tell you how many of the LEO's I work with brag about assing up CCW holders on a routine traffic stop, pulling them out of their vehicle and cuffing them then running their serial numbers as if they are felony criminals, not sure about California but to get a CCW here you have to go thru a process and get signed off by the local sheriff, kind of eliminates criminals from getting one but the honest still get treated like **** because they dare exercise their 2nd amendment right!
One more reason I Love Nevada, you can keep your handgun locked and loaded anywhere in your vehicle legally, never tell a cop that you have one on a traffic stop and never get treated like a criminal for having one, I support law enforcement right up to the point they pull some of their **** acting better than others, breaking laws and pulling crap like this, criminal with a badge is no better than the common criminal!

I've only been pulled over a few times in recent years. There was one time when I was pulled over and I told the Officer I was carrying. I was going to have to reach for my wallet and it was right next to my gun.

When I told him he said cool, what do you carry. At that time I cared at 1911 series 70. We talked about it a little bit we talked about the movie I was coming back with my family. He was planning on taking his kids to the movie and want to make sure it was a good movie. We never talked about my speeding after that and I didn't get a ticket.

 

[BritKLR]

I can't tell you how many of the LEO's I work with brag about assing up CCW holders on a routine traffic stop, pulling them out of their vehicle and cuffing them then running their serial numbers as if they are felony criminals,

Really........I call **************** on this.
It sounds like you know the law and your rights. Then you must also know that these LEO’s you work with have violated a number of misdemeanors, felonies and federal codes. What you’ve described is a civil rights violation, excessive force violation, false imprisonment violation, color of law violation, illegal use of law enforcement sensitive databases and countless agency policy and procedure violations. How about stop ragging about some unknown LEO’s and do something about the unethical ones you know? File an official complaint instead of bragging about it in the web.....

 

[NevadaLover]

Really........I call **************** on this.
It sounds like you know the law and your rights. Then you must also know that these LEO’s you work with have violated a number of misdemeanors, felonies and federal codes. What you’ve described is a civil rights violation, excessive force violation, false imprisonment violation, color of law violation, illegal use of law enforcement sensitive databases and countless agency policy and procedure violations. How about stop ragging about some unknown LEO’s and do something about the unethical ones you know? File an official complaint instead of bragging about it in the web.....

Bragging??..... Pretty sure that was bitching!!
And this crap goes on all over not just this jurisdiction, and it's never happened to me here or elsewhere so any complaint I could file would go nowhere without eyewitness corroboration!
I was making a point about the way a lot of LEO's feel and act, the dude I quoted talked about officer safety and CCW's, like I said as if every gun in the world is pointed at a badge,
I believe you are retired law enforcement, have you never seen another officer use his badge as a pass to do whatever he felt like? Running the registration of a pretty woman just to know her name, speeding in a patrol vehicle without running code, drinking and driving after hours? The list goes on.....
I'm not saying every law enforcement is a criminal but there are plenty who get away with a lot of illegal crap and do it constantly because "they can" and continue to do so, human nature, power corrupts!

 

[ventura911]

Isn't the 4th amendment one of our rights? Yep, 100%. However, it protects citizens from unreasonable searches and seizures; it doesn’t prevent citizens from voluntarily doing anything.

Why would there ever be an argument? I conceal carry, I have no responsibility to tell the police officer if he pulls me over whether or not I'm caring whether or not I have a permit where I live. We don't even need a permit to conceal carry. I would hope that “your responsibility” would be to help ensure a safe outcome. An officer who sees an undeclared weapon while you reach for your wallet or registration, for example, will react differently than if you’ve declared you have a CCW and are carrying a handgun. Read Terry v. Ohio (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_v._Ohio) and you’ll understand when an officer can conduct a pat-down search to determine if you are armed. As the officer starts that search and asks if you have any weapons on you, do you think it might be better to have already volunteered that you have a CCW and are carrying, or do you want to surprise the cop?

He pulls me over and we talk about what I got pulled over for, maybe I'll get a ticket maybe I don't. Why would whether or not I have a gun in my pocket cause an argument? My comment about saving arguments for court was not specifically about having a legal right to carry a gun in your pocket, but rather a general statement intended to remind people that they can go to court to resolve whatever legal problems they’re now in.


If I'm conceal carrying how would you know? if I'm a bad guy why would I even tell you anyway. How would you knowing If me having my 9 mm in my pocket or not would make you any safer? If you are successfully concealing it so that there is absolutely no visible indication that you have it on you, you’re right; the officer won’t know. If you’re a criminal, then no, I don’t expect you’ll tell the officer and the officer will hopefully come out on top of it goes bad. But if you’re just an average joe exercising your right under 2A, is it worth taking the chance that your pistol prints in your pocket, the bottom of your belt holster shows just a bit under your shirt, etc., when the officer is talking with you? Again, if you’ve told/shown the officer you have a CCW and complied with the officer’s directions, then everything should turn out ok.

If somebody threatens you with a gun you shoot them before they shoot you. if they plan on shooting you do you think they're going to tell you they have it. Thanks for that sage advice, and yes, believe it or not, some bad guys do make threats before acting upon them. We just can’t take it for granted that they will go through with their threats, and we will try to de-escalate such situations if at all possible.

I grew up in San Bernardino California, my neighbor was a cop and he got shot, nobody told him first. Fortunately he lived. Okay, so a bad guy attempted to murder a cop and the cop fortunately survived. What that has to do with someone with a CCW, who is NOT out to murder a cop, voluntarily telling a cop about the permit and firearms, is beyond me.

In 1986 I moved to Orange County. I had a friend who was a cop in Santa Ana he got shot. fortunately he lived. He even had his gun pulled. He always pulled his gun every time he pulled over somebody. He was ready to shoot everybody. He did shoot the guy twice before his Glock stove topped. I’m glad he survived, as well. Officers might often have their pistols out of the holster and alongside their leg as they approach vehicles they’ve stopped. It just depends on the circumstances. Since you advise officers to shoot someone who threatens them with a gun, then it seems having their firearms out and ready would be helpful, right?

I have a close friend that was a probation officer in Needles, he quit because of all the crap. They had a situation work 15 and 16 year old kids called an Uber driver just so they could kill them to see what it looked like. Yep, it can be a crappy world out there.

I was in a Soldier I went into situations where I was a little scared I was ready to shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot. Thanks for your service, but there are different rules of engagement for civilian law enforcement protecting us here at home.

If it does happen you don't have time to ask questions, if you did have time to ask questions the bad guys are going to lie to you anyway.

I'm sorry if I sound like an a******, I wish you nothing but the best and I hope you stay safe. I appreciate what you do and I could never do it. I could not continually go to situations wondering if I might have to shoot the guy before he shoots me. Thank you for your support. I hope you keep some of my comments in mind if you happen to get pulled over while lawfully carrying a concealed firearm so everyone is able to go home afterward.

 

[ventura911]

Right, because everybody with a gun is out to get a cop? This kind of bullsh!t is the main reason I never got a CCW permit

I never suggested that everyone with a gun was out to get a cop. You apparently missed that I support the right for everyone to carry if they aren’t committing a crime. I don’t understand what you meant when you said “this kind of ****************” is the reason you never got a CCW.

Bragging??..... Pretty sure that was bitching!!
And this crap goes on all over not just this jurisdiction, and it's never happened to me here or elsewhere so any complaint I could file would go nowhere without eyewitness corroboration!
I was making a point about the way a lot of LEO's feel and act, the dude I quoted talked about officer safety and CCW's, like I said as if every gun in the world is pointed at a badge,
I believe you are retired law enforcement, have you never seen another officer use his badge as a pass to do whatever he felt like? Running the registration of a pretty woman just to know her name, speeding in a patrol vehicle without running code, drinking and driving after hours? The list goes on.....
I'm not saying every law enforcement is a criminal but there are plenty who get away with a lot of illegal crap and do it constantly because "they can" and continue to do so, human nature, power corrupts!

I won’t argue that there are some cops who should not wear the badge, but your lack of firsthand experiences, coupled with your exaggerations and over-generalizations, diminish your credibility. You’re correct, you weren’t bragging, you were bitching, and in doing so, you show a bias against law enforcement and that you don’t mind stereotyping cops in such a manner.

 

[MOguy]

Double post.

 

[MOguy]

Seems odd, unprovoked and a need to show "your papers" if you have not been in an altercation.
But, if a police officer comes up behind you on the roadway and runs your plate and sees you have a CCP he has reason to question.
Quite a conundrum.

question what? He knows you have a concealed carry permit and we'll assume you're carrying. He also knows you've had a background check I would think it would set his mind at ease.

 

[MOguy]

QUOTE="ventura911, post: 2727248, member: 1795"]

[/QUOTE]


I understand you want to have the advantage, but if your I am in control and taking over the situation type attitude becomes overly apparent you're not going to have a good day.


If you pull me over for speeding, or running a stop sign or whatever you don't have the right to know what's in my front right pocket or where I had have come from or where I am going.

Now you could argue since I'm on a public road and if something's insight or if there's truly some other reason, I mean truly a real reason not some b******* excuse I can understand things going further.

I sure pulling people over can be stressful, i personally know 2 people who got shot doing it.You don't know what's happening next. I can't say that I understand it but I know it's stressful for you. When I get pulled over I turn my dome light on I roll down but two side windows you'll be walking to, I put my hands on the wheel at 10 and 2, I try to make it so you can see my face and eyes in the side view mirror and I will probably be the politest person you meet that but want the same in return

 

[bob280zx]

Food for thought:

“——- permit holders are convicted of misdemeanors and felonies at less than a sixth the rate for police officers,” Lott writes. “Among police, firearms violations occur at a rate of 16.5 per 100,000 officers. Among permit holders in Florida and Texas, the rate is only 2.4 per 100,000.10 That is just 1/7th of the rate for police officers.“

Report: Concealed Carry Permit Holders Are The Most Law-Abiding People In The Country

A newly-released report suggests that concealed carry permit holders are the most law-abiding citizens in the U.S. The report, written by Crime Prevention Research Center president John Lott, notes that it is “very rare for permit holders to violate the law” and compares the crimes committed by...

www.dailywire.com

 

[ventura911]

QUOTE="ventura911, post: 2727248, member: 1795"]

I understand you want to have the advantage, but if your I am in control and taking over the situation type attitude becomes overly apparent you're not going to have a good day. If, as you put it, my “I am in control and taking over the situation type attitude” is lawful, you may not like it, but you are required to comply by law. As always, circumstances dictate how the contact will go, but you do not have a legal right to refuse to comply with an officer’s lawful order. Again, save the arguments for the judge. As for not having a good day, well, that’s part of the job. I’ll adjust my conduct and tactics to overcome any resistance, all within the law. How about you?


If you pull me over for speeding, or running a stop sign or whatever you don't have the right to know what's in my front right pocket or where I had have come from or where I am going. If you look back at my original post, I merely said that I appreciate knowing someone has a CCW and is carrying. California does not require you to tell me, but as laws vary from state to state, make sure you are well-informed when you decide what course you are going to take.

Now you could argue since I'm on a public road and if something's insight or if there's truly some other reason, I mean truly a real reason not some b******* excuse I can understand things going further. Whenever possible, I will explain myself when giving someone directions, but the circumstances don’t always allow for that. However, I encourage everyone to comply first, question later.

I sure pulling people over can be stressful, i personally know 2 people who got shot doing it.You don't know what's happening next. I can't say that I understand it but I know it's stressful for you. When I get pulled over I turn my dome light on I roll down but two side windows you'll be walking to, I put my hands on the wheel at 10 and 2, I try to make it so you can see my face and eyes in the side view mirror and I will probably be the politest person you meet that but want the same in return Awesome, then it sounds like we’re on the same page.
[/QUOTE]

 

[BritKLR]

Bragging??..... Pretty sure that was bitching!!
And this crap goes on all over not just this jurisdiction, and it's never happened to me here or elsewhere so any complaint I could file would go nowhere without eyewitness corroboration!
I was making a point about the way a lot of LEO's feel and act, the dude I quoted talked about officer safety and CCW's, like I said as if every gun in the world is pointed at a badge,

Let me help you understand the standard Law Enforcement Internal Affairs/Professional Standards investigative process (since I was in-charge of it) so that it helps dispels the rumors your bitching about.
If you filed this complaint regarding “many” LEOs (more then one) or this “dude” LEO (one) misusing the law enforcement database and violating citizens rights its a very easy investigation that works backwards to find victims (witnesses).
1) If the state issues ccw permits and it authorizes their carry in a vehicle then the citizen has done nothing illegal.
2) If the legal permit information is in a database and used as PC for a vehicle stop, the stop is illegal.
3) If they illegally “arrested” (pull from car and cuff) the driver then they’ve violated the individuals 4th amendment rights. More then Sufficient information for an I/A investigation.
4) Since all traffic stops, license plate checks, party checks, gun serial number checks, permit checks are all run through a police dispatcher or MDT and logged with the LEOs badge number, ID number and radio number, the information is captured on agency, state and national databases. All the I/A Detective has to do is check those databases for any LEO that has run permits and weapon serial numbers (unique search codes). Once you’ve built that list of LEO’s routinely doing those checks, you cross reference them with UTTs, incident reports, arrest reports, personnel files complaints, supervisor notations, etc. once you’ve narrowed down a number of traffic stops that are suspicious you contact the drivers. If the drivers corroborate what you say the LEOs did it’s time to interview/interrogate the LEO. Whatever the outcome is, is how it moves forward for possible personnel action and/or criminal charges.

A funny story that points this out.......33 years ago I was working the dog watch (12a-8a) in the jail. My partner was reading the newspaper (no internet or smart phones yet) he/she sees an article about a local old school mob figure that was being pursued by the FBI. He/she thought it would be a good idea to run him through the database to see what kind of criminal history the mobster had. He/she ran him. Fast forward to 3am when the solid steel doors crash open and there is the Sheriff and Detention Division Commander storming in. They wanted to know if this mobster was in custody.....no.....who ran him and why? My partner admitted what he/she had done. It turns out the mobster was red flagged in the criminal database system and when he/she ran him it notified the FBI who in turn called my agency, who called the bosses and sent agents to the lockup. In the end my partner got written up for violating policy, suspended for a day and had to reimburse the agency .5 cents for the cost of the data inquiry. Lucky he/she weren’t fired. My point, the records checks are there......look for them to address this issue.

 

[MOguy]

I understand you want to have the advantage, but if your I am in control and taking over the situation type attitude becomes overly apparent you're not going to have a good day. If, as you put it, my “I am in control and taking over the situation type attitude” is lawful, you may not like it, but you are required to comply by law. As always, circumstances dictate how the contact will go, but you do not have a legal right to refuse to comply with an officer’s lawful order. Again, save the arguments for the judge. As for not having a good day, well, that’s part of the job. I’ll adjust my conduct and tactics to overcome any resistance, all within the law. How about you?


If you pull me over for speeding, or running a stop sign or whatever you don't have the right to know what's in my front right pocket or where I had have come from or where I am going. If you look back at my original post, I merely said that I appreciate knowing someone has a CCW and is carrying. California does not require you to tell me, but as laws vary from state to state, make sure you are well-informed when you decide what course you are going to take.

Now you could argue since I'm on a public road and if something's insight or if there's truly some other reason, I mean truly a real reason not some b******* excuse I can understand things going further. Whenever possible, I will explain myself when giving someone directions, but the circumstances don’t always allow for that. However, I encourage everyone to comply first, question later.

I sure pulling people over can be stressful, i personally know 2 people who got shot doing it.You don't know what's happening next. I can't say that I understand it but I know it's stressful for you. When I get pulled over I turn my dome light on I roll down but two side windows you'll be walking to, I put my hands on the wheel at 10 and 2, I try to make it so you can see my face and eyes in the side view mirror and I will probably be the politest person you meet that but want the same in return Awesome, then it sounds like we’re on the same page.

[/QUOTE]
the issue where we are far off is what you said in your post #148 "a CCW-holder can unnecessarily escalate the situation by withholding that bit of information" And that is where you are so so very very wrong!

On a form such as this we only see the written word it's hard to know exactly what your intent is and what you're trying to communicate but I take that is extremely arrogant on your part and it reeks of condescension.

It really doesn't matter what you say as much as what the person receiving your message hears. I feel that when you say we let the judge sort it makes me feel you really don't care about the people you're dealing with, more condescension.

As a CCW holder we have had a background check, and my Sheriff feels there's no issue with me carrying a concealed a weapon. We have already done more than we should have to! And now you want to question us as CCW holders about doing the right thing.

 

[shade]

I see two related circumstances being conflated.

1. If you're legally armed (no matter the type of weapon or how it's carried), obey whatever laws apply about notifying a law enforcement officer that you're armed. If the applicable laws don't require notification, you don't have to do so. If that point becomes an issue during an encounter, arguing about it in court and/or making a formal complaint after the incident are good options. Arguing with an officer while you're armed isn't a good option, no matter how right you may be.

2. If you're legally armed (no matter the type of weapon or how it's carried), and you have contact with a law enforcement officer, it's a good idea to inform them about being armed and how, regardless of any legal requirement to do so. Even if you're within your rights to not notify an officer, misunderstandings can quickly escalate into a bad day for all involved. Why increase the odds for that to occur?
________________________________________

If someone wants to start a 2A rant, go ahead, but that has little to do with being smart about interacting with LEOs while armed.

 

[MOguy]

In my state the county issues the permit. The Sheriff makes the decision. My CCW permit is none of the states business.

Recently my State passed State Constitutional amendments to include constitutional carry and other things that benefit "We the People" when it comes to not infringing on. The sheriff has no power over this!

It goes much deeper than just the Second Amendment!

the Bill of Rights and these constitutional amendments are written for We the People not law enforcement or the government!

 

[MOguy]

Like it or not, if that permit is valid Statewide, your permit is the States business.

I miss stated my point, thank you.

who is or is not issued a permit is not state business, that is what I meant. there are laws and requirements but the Sheriffbe is the issuing authority.