Death wobble...?!

[Antichrist]

Good point on the verbiage Mike. I should have emphasised that a faulty steering damper is likely only part of the problem

Absolutely not. A faulty steering damper is never part of the problem with death wobble.

A steering damper doesn't have any function whatsoever in normal driving. They are only for absorbing shocks when only one tire hits an object like a rock sticking up in a trail, to keep the steering wheel from whipping around.

A Land Rover with steering components in good shape doesn't even need a steering damper.

Installing a new steering damper when you have death wobble is like putting a band aid on a skin carcinoma. You can't see the problem anymore, but it could still very well kill you.

 

[ipgregory]

Tom,

You're missing the point of what I said.

His steering wheel is whipping around, therefore his damper is not working or not working well to damp the wobble that it's not (we all agree) causing. No, the damper is not causing his death wobble but its also probably not working properly and should be considered for replacement along with whatever is causing the wobble.

I mentioned the damper as being something to check because its probably failing or failed along with whatever other problems he has. Your post suggest he shouldn't even look at it because its not causing the wobble so even though its probably faulty it should be ignored?

Nobody is suggesting he only replace the damper, but you are intimating he shouldn't consider replacing it at all since its not the cause? A crorrectly working damper helps to mask death wobble. If he has death wobble then his damper is also suspect as its not doing it's job properly. Its not the cause but it may well be an associated victim.

See anything else in there I should bold? Or should I use CAPS? :sombrero:

 

[Antichrist]

Your post suggest he shouldn't even look at it because its not causing the wobble so even though its probably faulty it should be ignored?

Exactly.
Until he has corrected the death wobble, the damper should be ignored, ideally removed, as Mike suggested.

To clarify, the damper isn't to prevent the steering wheel from whipping around in all circumstances, but only when one wheel hits something. If he doesn't off-road he can take the damper off permanently without concern.
Even if he off-roads he can. I never had a steering damper on a Land Rover until I bought my Disco in 2001. Series Land Rovers had essentially the same swivel setup as D1's and a steering damper was only an option. Yes the steering wheel would spin sometimes, but I had sense enough to keep my thumbs out of the spokes.

A closer analogy would be someone complaining of a broken road spring and a person suggesting the person replace their shock absorber.

My emphasis is because nearly every time someone mentions death wobble someone starts talking about the steering damper, which is totally misleading and further perpetuates the myth that they have any bearing on it whatsoever.

 

[ipgregory]

So instead its better to perpetuate the idea of not replacing a possibly faulty component since its not the cause of the problem they initially asked about?

Yes, he should fix whatever is causing his death wobble but what is wrong with letting him know his symptoms suggest there is another possibly faulty component he could/should consider replacing while he is in there?

If the shock is faulty why would you not replace it with the spring even though it was the broken spring that helped to show you the shock was faulty? Your analogy doesn't work, sorry.

Agreed he could remove the damper temporarily to help him nd make sure he has corrected his death wobble but if its potentially faulty then he should know to consider replacing it before he puts it back on.

 

[Antichrist]

what is wrong with letting him know his symptoms suggest there is another possibly faulty component he could/should consider replacing while he is in there?

Nothing.
But you didn't say that.

He asked what to check as a cause of death wobble and this is what was posted:
"wheel bearings on the left front...lugnuts...all the bushings, radius arms, pan hard, tie rod ends"
"plus Steering Damper and Swivel Pre-Load"
Everything listed can contribute to death wobble, everything but the steering damper that is.
Then:
"a faulty steering damper is likely only part of the problem" (which I responded to in my first post)

Again, his problem is death wobble. A faulty steering damper is never part of the problem when the problem is death wobble. Not even a tiny bit of the problem.
A faulty steering damper is an entirely different problem that makes itself known in a different way.

But I agree, once he has the problem fixed he could test the steering damper if he has a mind to, but it's not a big deal even if it is worn out.

 

[ipgregory]

That depends on how you are looking at it and what you define as the 'problem'.

He almost certainly has a number of worn or part worn components that are contributing to his death wobble. There are most likely 1 or 2 of those components that have worn to the point we can consider failure and now he has a death wobble.

The steering damper is probably one of those front end components that is worn beyond its ability to 'disguise' or dampen the wobble that is being caused by other worn components. Since the wobble is his symptom we can tell that the steering damper is not working effectively and can then be considered part of the overall problem.

Replacing it alone does not fix his problem although it may mask it and cause premature wear of his replacement or hide it until something else fails catastrophically. I agree with your concern that he doesn't do that for obvious reasons and that's why I agreed when Mike called me on the way I worded my original post (that you quote along with Frank's even though I fixed it later). So since we know it isn't doing its job we can (and I did) suggest he checks it while he diagnoses the wobble. I then elaborated on my original post and we went back to suggesting causes for his wobble.

You then come along much later and suggest that since they were not fitted to a series truck that weighs half what his truck probably does and runs at typically much lower speeds he doesn't need a steering damper. He should instead teach himself and his girlfriend who he mentions also drives the vehicle to keep their thumbs out of the spokes in the steering wheel in case they hit a pothole or a bump in the road and throw it away???? After all our roads are glass smooth so there is no need for it unless you drive off road. You also suggest that since it isn't causing the wobble he should just ignore it even though its most likely faulty????

 

[Antichrist]

Since the wobble is his symptom we can tell that the steering damper is not working effectively and can then be considered part of the overall problem.

That's a false premise. You can only guess that it might be worn since a brand new damper won't mask death wobble if the situation is bad enough.
If you include the steering damper as "part of the overall problem" of his death wobble, why not also include the trailing arm bushings and A-Frame ball joint? If his death wobble is from front suspension bushing wear then the rears are probably worn as well. So by your logic they are part of the problem also.

You also suggest that since it isn't causing the wobble he should just ignore it even though its most likely faulty????

Again, exactly.
Until he has fixed the actual problem the steering damper should be ignored, like I said before.

As for removing it permanently, I'm not really suggesting it. I just said he could.
However, I've driven many thousands of miles without issue, including off-road on rocky trails, with a steering damper so worn out that it would slide back and forth on it's own when I finally replaced it.

Anyway, I give up. Hopefully anyone else with death wobble will get it that a faulty steering damper has nothing whatsoever to do with the presence of death wobble.

 

[ipgregory]

Yeah we both agree the damper is not the cause of his problem. But I don't get why you seem so against the suggestion that he checks it since in many cases if he has DW his damper is probably suspect as well as whatever is causing the wobble. Agreed that the damper will not always mask the wobble if its bad enough but it does more often than not so I just suggested its worth checking it at the same time he fixes the rest.

I understand and agree with your concern that people might consider the damper the cause and that by simply replacing it they think have fixed it instead of just masking the problem. But since that issue had been raised and I had already clarified earlier in the thread I don't get the point of your original post to pull this out after it had already been gone over?

Since its likely that much of his front end is pretty worn then no I see nothing wrong with suggesting he check the back end as well while he's at it. If you are going to replace front end compenents then it stands to reason the back is most likely on the way as well and you might as well check them all. But then that is classic Land Rover Ship Fitters disease is it not? :ylsmoke:

 

[windsock]

... and then I get into the left lane to see the front left wheel wobbling so hard it looked as if it could fly off at any moment.

[snip]

It is BAD. It wrenches your arms and the steering wheel from side to side.

What am I looking for here?

1995 5-spd D1

The way I see it and based entirely on your description, if the front left wheel only is jerking around as you clearly indicate then it will likely only be swivel hub related so check preload (without the swivel seals in contact) and swivel hub bearing wear. If the whole axle is jerking around also (and therefore both wheels), you will feel the vibrations through the body of the truck as well as through the steering wheel and it'll be bushes somewhere most likey panhard but I have also had worn out radius arm bushes cause a vibration. Worn bush vibrations are no where near as scary as death-wobble from worn hub bearings or zero preload :Wow1: . YMMV - from experience it could be a combinaton of all of the above as once one part gets a small wobble/worn the whole lot take it up and go out quicker. Good luck with it

 

[LtFuzz]

And the verdict is................

.....................

..................

Torsion rod bushings.

 

[sven]

Torsion rod bushings.

Uh what? Panhard or radius arm?

 

[LtFuzz]

Uh what? Panhard or radius arm?

Dunno yet, still gotta pick it up. Figure it's one or the other or both

 

[Mike_rupp]

I'd be wary of a mechanic that calls anything on a Land Rover a torsion rod.

 

[LtFuzz]

I'd be wary of a mechanic that calls anything on a Land Rover a torsion rod.

Heh, fair enough. I should've prefaced my post by saying I got a call from the shop's secretary/billing lady saying the truck was ready -- I asked her what the diagnosis was and she told me "Hmm...looks like 2 torsion bar bushings." I interpreted that to be a catch all for linkage stuff since it was clear she was just reading off an invoice.

I've been skeptical since day one, particularly how quick the work was done -- but the guy gave me a warm and fuzzy so we'll see. Plus his lot is stacked with gorgeous Jaguars, Austin-Healys, and Triumphs -- so the other britcar enthusiasts around here seem to trust him with their babies. The labor charge was very reasonable, too.

More to follow, I guess. The guy said he'd square me away, got it done quickly and relatively cheaply, and here I am second-guessing the work without even getting the truck back :sombrero: :coffeedrink:

 

[Antichrist]

I'd be wary of a mechanic that calls anything on a Land Rover a torsion rod.

Yeah, no doubt.

Plus his lot is stacked with gorgeous Jaguars, Austin-Healys, and Triumphs -- so the other britcar enthusiasts around here seem to trust him with their babies.

Maybe he's been working on British torsion bar suspensions too long. lol
Does concern me he probably has little to no experience with swivel pins which are a key component in the Land Rover steering. I'd be pretty surprised if they don't also need attention.