Designing a complicated power infrastructure, seeking inputs on my inputs and ouputs

[Bear in NM]

Ray,

I mentioned the Sunsaver Duo solar PWM charge controller earlier. It is designed to charge 2 battery banks, and no tie between the banks is needed. I use one in my suitcase which has its batteries hard wired to the Duo. I use a connector on the second battery side, so that I can plug in either my Aux truck battery, or my starting battery. You could hard wire your aux battery and 3rd set, with no switching needed. The Duo has a dip switch for 90/10 or 50/50 charging between the two banks.

Craig

 

[Bear in NM]

Verkstad,

yes, I do have redundancy in my box. My setup is portable, with the duo on one side and a standard Sunsaver on the other. The biggest complication if the sunsaver duo died would be rewiring whichever battery I needed to the standard controller. No biggie. I should have my second solar panel within a month or so, then I will have complete redundancy of big power. I do have 4 13 watt Goal Zero portable panels in my box, but those would be a stretch for my fridge. The only thing I "lack" is my suitcase battery bank wired to my alternator. I am not seeing that as needed, at this point, and in a real jamb, I could plug a small 12 volt charger into an inverter, and plug that into the truck charging system, or directly plug the suitcase batteries into my aux lines, in the cab, or at he bed. I have several short pigtail fuses wired with my Anderson connectors both ends, so I can mickey mouse safely ;^)

Craig

 

[dwh]

One can create similar scenario just using 2 (or more) charge controllers, inputs connected parallel from PV module.
Of course 50/50 or 90/10 allocation is not possible...

If you're talking about two controllers connected to the PV at the same time, Morningstar has a white paper somewhere on their site that describes the proper way to do that. IIRC it involves adding one or more diodes.

 

[rayra]

I would indeed like to charge / top off everything via solar. Just have to map out the circuits and isolator / diodes in a way to make sure things are not getting bridged which shouldn't, overlaying systems like this.

I still haven't started any detailed circuit diagrams yet, just finished off the physical build of the structure of the drawers.

and a relevant repost from that build thread -

I'm farting around now with various layouts for the power module. I'm thinking to use a variety of 'panel mount' fittings for the power adapters, mounted in each end of the 'Power Module'. My goal is to be able to plug in and power just about anything. Later I'll be adding solar and probably some additional batteries in that box. But initially the box is going to get its power from a heavy cable run from the Aux battery under the hood. I'm planning a heavy-duty Anderson Power Pole connector at both front and rear bumper, as source for a carrier-hitch-mounted winch.
So that heavy cable will have a branch off to feed the power ports in the box. I'll have something like a Blue Sea Aux fuse panel in there, so each power port device or type will be on its own fused circuit.
Then there's the issue of the inverter. It's said its best to 'right-size'. So I'm waffling between something like a small 300W unit and something like a 1000W. I'm considering placing a 1000W at the 'front' (facing the bumper) and a 300W at the rear (facing the passenger seats). Then there's the issue of heat, especially as it's a closed box. This is compounded by the inverters as the bigger units with internal fans all seem to draw air from the power socket face, thru the body of the inverter and out the back by the cable connections. Which means they'll be pumping heat INTO the box. Ungood. But the box lid hinges open. But I'm also thinking about putting in a small 12VDC 40mm computer fan. Preferably so that it comes on when the inverter(s) are powered on.
The fan would also be useful later when there's a solar charge controller inside the box and a panel on the roof. The small fan only draws 0.08Amps.

Still figuring it out. Lots of ideas, trying to do a lot of things at the same time.

Here's a first approximation, just trying to get a feel for the sizes and spacing of things. The inverter will already be an issue, the plugs have to be away from teh bottom and the drawer next door. Have to have room to plug in something like a wall wart. Anyway, progress on the power stuff is going to be very slow, probably take the rest of the year to do most of it.

 

[Bear in NM]

Ray,

No doubt, your box/storage system is outstanding. Very well done.

As to the inverter, one of the issues that has always bugged me about doing permanent mounts, and especially in your case with such nice wood, is the possibility of the inverter crapping out, and trying to find a replacement that would fit the same mounting dimensions. If I were going to cut up such nice wood, I would give some thought to doing just a switch and 120 v receptacles on the wood, with a pig tail or some such going back to the inverter in the box. The round openings for the gauges and switches are more universal for size, and should be able to be replaced, readily.

Craig

 

[rayra]

I am considering just that, even though the idea of a plug plugging into a plug is a little too ghetto for me. But I sure like the idea of just the smaller receptacle in the faceplate. I've even considered partially dismantling the inverter to relocate the plug receptacles.

Another idea is a generic faceplate, using that textured black plastic, with the inverter end set into it. Then the inverters can come and go and you just make a new faceplate that fits. Then there's the heating issue again, with the inverter breathing only box air, temps would spool up even faster.

But I'm still browsing budget inverters, trying to find that combination of affordable, powerful and well rated and with the power switch on the receptacle face. Trying to find 'good enough'.


Here's one where the case is an aluminum extrusion, with everything in an end faceplate. It could probably be adapted so the faceplate is on the wood, there's a shielded / plastic lined passage thru the wood, to the body of the inverter.

https://www.amazon.com/Power-Bright..._n_feature_keywords_two_browse-bin:7067173011


Or again, make a faceplate that sandwiches between the device faceplate and the inverter body, which forms a cosmetic flange on the face of the wood while keeping the inverter closed up.

The other idea is just attach the thing to the box lid and resign myself to the idea of having the lid open when running such a higher output inverter. Just have it totally out of sight when closed. Position the other power ports to clear it. Then you open the door to lift the inverter out and expose the working end.

Certainly don't expect to be using a 1000W inverter on the move. So having things open wouldn't matter and that solves the heating issue with a heavy inverter. And the smaller inverter could just be a cigarette lighter plug type and use the exterior 12v receptacle. OR beign kept portable, be used at any seat in the vehicle, too. And that works better with 'right-sizing' and how it is likely to be used.
The 1000W+ unit would be for access out the back for using power tools and other higher-draw uses. And that reminds me it should be a good bit higher wattage. I already have a ~900W mini-generator that've I've found lacking for some power saw uses, so I better go bigger.


I already have a small unit I use in the vehicle. IIRC it's a Stanley-branded unit, 100W, plugs into the power port / cig lighter directly, no wiring, gives a 5V USB and a 110VAC outlet. I've used if for charging laptops. And I run some Christmas lights on the roof rack from it during the holidays, for laughs.

/my whole vehicle is already an electrical fire hazard, even before these fresh ambitions.

 

[Bear in NM]

Dang dude, if I had that many "options" bouncing around in my noggin at any one time, I would have an aneurysm:Wow1: That was the nice thing when I had my jeep, the line between ghetto and macho was pretty thin. Screw that stuff down, and fancy was matching the type of screws........

I have one of those small cig port inverters in the front like you show, a larger one in one of my Avalanche saddle bags, and a small pure sine in my portable solar control box. I guess my line is that I do not mind being a little ghetto when I am charging, as like you noted, it is not when I am driving. The way I figure it, if you have plug options that do not involve alligator clips, you would be way past ghetto. The replaceable fascia panel seems like a better option than a custom wood cut to match up with an inverter face.

Now that you mention it, I really need to find a suitable place to mount an extinguisher in my Av. Christmas is not that far away ......Good show on the lights.

Craig

 

[rayra]

Heh thanks. I drive around with them on, likely will cause someone an accident some time, distracting them.

Another idea occurred to me on the 'plug plugged into a plug' thing. I was thinking maybe use a GFCI outlet, the kind with the tiny LED indicator light. That way when the inverter is left on I have visual indicator / reminder.

I don't even know right now if a GFCI will operate with an inverter powering it. Fluctuations would probably trip it.

 

[Chris Boyd]

The GFCI will likely not work correctly because a vehicle doesn't have a real ground. Even with a generator, we had to switch to arc-fault interrupters on some work vehicles because of this.

 

[dwh]

Many inverters don't have a neutral. Instead, they have two hots, out of phase. Each hot has a 60v potential to ground, but since they are out of phase there is a 120v potential across the two hots.

That can sometimes cause problems for some GFCIs.

 

[dwh]

And many inverters have a GFCI built-in.

 

[rayra]

I only mentioned the GFCI outlet because some have a very small indicator light in their face. If I went with a remoted plug with the inverter inside the box, the indicator light would be a good reminder that I left the inverter on.
I suppose the same sort of thing could be achieved with a fiber optic strand of plastic 'light guide' run from any light on the inverter and passed thru the wood faceplate of the module. I was just at Home Depot and forgot to peruse the electrical section for some outlets. A black rectangular dual outlet would serve nicely, style-wise. Even if it's a bubba thing to do.

I've got some parts inbound for my dual battery setup. Waffling between my usual iterative / incremental process, do the '$50 dual setup' to get things in operation and some of my aux and radio goodies going, or move directly to the high-amp layout that would be needed for heavy winch operation. A 300A-capable bus, instead of the 80A non-winching setup. The lower ramp model gets more things in operation sooner. But will require some component and wire replacement some indeterminate months / year from now, when I get around to grill / brushguard and winch setups.

I've got to read up on wiring gauges and efficiencies, need to find the right balance between loads and safety. My idea still is to use a heavy-duty cable backbone to both bumpers, fed from teh Aux battery, ostensibly for winching, And with a fat 200A or higher isolator such that both starter and aux are drawn on for winching, with the vehicle running. That will require some fat cabling for the dual battery setup.

Then I'd have a smaller branch circuit in the Power Module, off of the heavy cabling circuit to the rear winch hookup, connecting the optional batteries. With an isolator on that branch and very likely a diode too, if I understand isolators properly. I want ALL the batteries charging while the vehicle is running. I want the optional batteries blocked off from any winching drain or Aux battery radio(s) or lighting drain; the rear batteries are only to power the power ports / accessories in the rear box.

Any large inverter in the rear box would be connected to the heavy cable / bus, drawing from the Aux battery.

I'm envisioning the heavy cable entering the power module to a terminal mount. Another like cable goes from that terminal mount back out of the power module to the rear bumper connector. The smaller branch wire to the power module accessories would originate at this terminal junction. That's the 'logical' design, anyway. In function it will probably be a marine-type rotary switch that serves as that junction. feeder cable in to that switch, branch line off the same connection. Same for the inverter. Then out the other side of the switch the line to the bumper. It can be a bus bar or preferably all in the switch housing.

Then the branch circuit connects to a bus with the optional batteries. And a feeder line from that bus feeds a fuse panel in the Power Module that all the 12v and 5v stuff depends from. The branch circuit has an isolator and/or diode in it, between the optional battery bus and the marine switch junction.

Electrically, the heavy cable bus can originate at either the dual battery isolator or the Aux battery positive. But I'm also considering originating at the positive on the Aux and immediately to a rotary switch, then out to both the front bumper and the heavy cable to the rear. But that probably doesn't work. I probably need the cutoff of the front bumper and the rear bus to be separate.
So that's three things going on with the Aux. feed power coming in from the isolator; power going out to the rear, power going to the front winch connection. Make that FOUR things. A feed for a fuse panel in the cabin feeding my radio(s) console and my aux lighting.

The Main / Start battery keeps all it's original jobs and none of the new. And if I feed the dual battery from the Suburban's original Alternator / battery connection box (little red box next to the alternator), I don't even change anything on the Main / Start battery.

I've got a few days before my next out of town trip. I'll try to find the time to diagram and annotate all this on paper so it's easier to reference / troubleshoot. And so it's easier for Verkstaad to mock.

 

[4x4junkie]

Another idea is a generic faceplate, using that textured black plastic, with the inverter end set into it. Then the inverters can come and go and you just make a new faceplate that fits. Then there's the heating issue again, with the inverter breathing only box air, temps would spool up even faster.

Drill some ventilation holes on the bottom and/or side and/or back of the box, then add a small DC fan (80-120mm computer type) somewhere near the top to exhaust the heat out of the box.

Another idea occurred to me on the 'plug plugged into a plug' thing. I was thinking maybe use a GFCI outlet, the kind with the tiny LED indicator light. That way when the inverter is left on I have visual indicator / reminder.

Connect one of these to the back of a standard AC receptacle and mount it into your panel next to the receptacle:
https://www.amazon.com/New-BLUE-SEA-8066-LED-120VAC/dp/B0041TL23A
or
https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems-Green-Indicator/dp/B00NC90MAE

 

[rayra]

Buried above is a mention of hooking up a 40cm 12vdc PC fan. That class-size of fan moves about 5cfm. The power module box volume is a little over 1 cubic foot. So that tiny fan will draw out at least 4 volumes of air every minute.

As for the LED suggestions, sure. but poking another hole separate from the devices already present doesn't appeal much to me. And I've long been messing with that sort of stuff and Blue Sea's $8 pricepoint is about a 1500% markup. Not very long ago you could buy 100 LEDs for $8. I have some experience farting around with such things.

----


further research last night found a lot of postings and products for rear winch hookups, most of the work - even ready made kits from Warn - were using 2AWG wire. That's overkill for a battery charging bus, and only sufficient for the lower classes of winches. On the Suburban it's marginal for even a marginal 9000-class winch. And woefully inadequate for a 12000 class winch. Would have to get into some truly fat cabling 2/0 or even 4/0 for a rear-mount 12000 winch. At that point it's better to have a rear-mounted deep cycle battery for such punishing duty. Or 'make do' with a rear battery, on an isolator, and using 2AWG or 1/0 as a 150-200A feeder cable. Key off, make a pull, winch off, fire up the vehicle and pour juice into the pull battery. Key off, make a pull.


At this point I'm considering a 4AWG feeder to the Aux battery, fused at 80A. And the same from the Aux back to the Power Module to feed all the power accessories back there and later as a charging circuit for the optional smaller batteries.

I'm thinking to put a 200A isolator on the Aux feeder, right off the bat. Wire I don't mind buying twice, it's always useful / reusable. But no point in buying the lower amp isolator just to replace it later.

Then later when I actually commit to spending $750-1000 for a winch and all the necessaries, I'll spend the money on 2/0 cable. maybe. Only really talking about $40 difference between running 4AWG vs 2/0. Mostly looking for 'gotchas' on running 2/0 or 4/0 and only putting a little juice thru it. Got to talk to my electrician neighbor about it.

 

[4x4junkie]

I thought the price of those Bluesea LEDs was a bit high myself, but figured part of it was due to having included circuitry to step the 120VAC down to something the LED could handle. A simple 1N4004 diode & 22K resistor all in series with a standard T-1¾ LED certainly would work well too since you seem to be good working with discreet parts.
Perhaps you can put the LED on the receptacle cover plate itself.

As for a 40mm fan, I don't think that will be enough to vent the heat of a 1000+ watt inverter in a tiny box (you mentioned possibly having a 2nd 300W inverter in there too). Air has low mass and can't hold much heat, so you need a good strong air current to carry the heat away.


No harm at all putting tiny currents through a big fat wire (other than maybe to your pocketbook). You'll then be all set for when you get your winch (and won't have a bunch of #4 AWG that will then no longer be useful). Any extra assistance you give the winch from your underhood battery & alternator will only help it to run stronger, faster, cooler.