toylandcruiser
Expedition Leader
You're right I miss read that. But I don't think they are against efficient cars because they are afraid it'll hurt profit.
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Diesel in a Jeep again...not the wrangler
- Thread starter Frank
- Start date
You're right I miss read that. But I don't think they are against efficient cars because they are afraid it'll hurt profit.
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X-plorenow
Adventurer
OK, fair enough, you might very well be right.
SSF556
SE Expedition Society
I know we are off topic...but trust me oil companies are not against diesels. It is Big Gov't against diesel. And as Big Gov't ups the fuel economy numbers for manufacturers...they will need to bring more diesels to average out there mpg numbers. Also you will see more and more diesel/electric hybrids. You think the Prius gets good fuel economy...wait until you see a diesel hybrid.
VanIsle_Greg
I think I need a bigger truck!
I estimate about 25% of the Grand Cherokees I see in my area are the 3.0L diesels. VERY popular here...and when the diesel Liberty and Dakota's were announced back in 2003 ish, there were literally people lining up at the Chrysler dealerships with cash in hand to get the few that Daimler Chrysler were able to produce before the California Emissions Standards (which we harmonize with) were changed such that that engine no longer met the standards and had to be dropped. A manager at one of the local Chrysler dealerships told me he tried to buy up every diesel Libby or Dakota destined for BC... as he had customers on a wait list for them. He was told he would get what he got, and that was that. Then there were no more...and the 3.7L was the only option after that.
Man what a letdown.
I personally will say a little cheer the day that Chrysler gets to building the Wrangler with a diesel in it. I am certain that they will sell a boatload of Liberties, Wranglers, Dakotas and 1500's with the diesel in them, if they can build enough to supply the demand. Me, I will be in line with my cash in hand for one soon after!
Man what a letdown.
I personally will say a little cheer the day that Chrysler gets to building the Wrangler with a diesel in it. I am certain that they will sell a boatload of Liberties, Wranglers, Dakotas and 1500's with the diesel in them, if they can build enough to supply the demand. Me, I will be in line with my cash in hand for one soon after!
I estimate about 25% of the Grand Cherokees I see in my area are the 3.0L diesels. VERY popular here...and when the diesel Liberty and Dakota's were announced back in 2003 ish, there were literally people lining up at the Chrysler dealerships with cash in hand to get the few that Daimler Chrysler were able to produce before the California Emissions Standards (which we harmonize with) were changed such that that engine no longer met the standards and had to be dropped. A manager at one of the local Chrysler dealerships told me he tried to buy up every diesel Libby or Dakota destined for BC... as he had customers on a wait list for them. He was told he would get what he got, and that was that. Then there were no more...and the 3.7L was the only option after that.
When I went through Canada in 2009 diesel was 30 - 50 cents cheaper per gallon than gasoline. At that time the price was about equal in the US. Right now diesel is 40 to 80 cents per gallon more expensive where I live. That pretty much negates the diesel efficiency advantage, especially when you factor in the initial cost premium of buying a diesel engine. I have friends (foolishly) getting rid of their diesels due to cost. The only way that a diesel seems to pencil out is if you're hauling heavy loads a lot. Just driving high miles doesn't work because of the low fuel economy the new diesels are getting in comparison to the new gas engines.
I think that these negatives have to be over come before we see a huge change in people buying diesels in anything but trucks. We can all rave about wanting diesels but the expedition group is really a small amount of buyers. I watched a Liberty CRD sit on the lot here for 2 months last year and when I put my CRD up for sale I only had 2 responses. Hardly having people tripping over themselves to buy a diesel. Sales numbers is what is stopping the diesel in the US.
Yep, this is how the real world assesses profitability and allocates capital.
Oil companies are price takers and they do a remarkably good job of getting energy out of the ground (often from far-away and/or hostile areas) and to the consumer efficiently. If you don't like the price, blame mother nature or the Chinese. US total use of crude oil has DECLINED since 2004.
Getting back on track, however, which Jeep vehicles will have diesel motors available in 2013? I kind of lost the trail on that question................
R
Frank
Explorer
The 65 mpg Ford the U.S. Can't Have (from 2008)
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_37/b4099060491065.htm
The link reads:
If ever there was a car made for the times, this would seem to be it: a sporty subcompact that seats five, offers a navigation system, and gets a whopping 65 miles to the gallon. Oh yes, and the car is made by Ford Motor (F), known widely for lumbering gas hogs.
Ford's 2009 Fiesta ECOnetic goes on sale in November. But here's the catch: Despite the car's potential to transform Ford's image and help it compete with Toyota Motor (TM) and Honda Motor (HMC) in its home market, the company will sell the little fuel sipper only in Europe. "We know it's an awesome vehicle," says Ford America President Mark Fields. "But there are business reasons why we can't sell it in the U.S." The main one: The Fiesta ECOnetic runs on diesel.
Automakers such as Volkswagen (VLKAY) and Mercedes-Benz (DAI) have predicted for years that a technology called "clean diesel" would overcome many Americans' antipathy to a fuel still often thought of as the smelly stuff that powers tractor trailers. Diesel vehicles now hitting the market with pollution-fighting technology are as clean or cleaner than gasoline and at least 30% more fuel-efficient.
Yet while half of all cars sold in Europe last year ran on diesel, the U.S. market remains relatively unfriendly to the fuel. Taxes aimed at commercial trucks mean diesel costs anywhere from 40 cents to $1 more per gallon than gasoline. Add to this the success of the Toyota Prius, and you can see why only 3% of cars in the U.S. use diesel. "Americans see hybrids as the darling," says Global Insight auto analyst Philip Gott, "and diesel as old-tech."
None of this is stopping European and Japanese automakers, which are betting they can jump-start the U.S. market with new diesel models. Mercedes-Benz by next year will have three cars it markets as "BlueTec." Even Nissan (NSANY) and Honda, which long opposed building diesel cars in Europe, plan to introduce them in the U.S. in 2010. But Ford, whose Fiesta ECOnetic compares favorably with European diesels, can't make a business case for bringing the car to the U.S.
TOO PRICEY TO IMPORT
First of all, the engines are built in Britain, so labor costs are high. Plus the pound remains stronger than the greenback. At prevailing exchange rates, the Fiesta ECOnetic would sell for about $25,700 in the U.S. By contrast, the Prius typically goes for about $24,000. A $1,300 tax deduction available to buyers of new diesel cars could bring the price of the Fiesta to around $24,400. But Ford doesn't believe it could charge enough to make money on an imported ECOnetic.
Ford plans to make a gas-powered version of the Fiesta in Mexico for the U.S. So why not manufacture diesel engines there, too? Building a plant would cost at least $350 million at a time when Ford has been burning through more than $1 billion a month in cash reserves. Besides, the automaker would have to produce at least 350,000 engines a year to make such a venture profitable. "We just don't think North and South America would buy that many diesel cars," says Fields.
The question, of course, is whether the U.S. ever will embrace diesel fuel and allow automakers to achieve sufficient scale to make money on such vehicles. California certified VW and Mercedes diesel cars earlier this year, after a four-year ban. James N. Hall, of auto researcher 293 Analysts, says that bellwether state and the Northeast remain "hostile to diesel." But the risk to Ford is that the fuel takes off, and the carmaker finds itself playing catch-up—despite having a serious diesel contender in its arsenal.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_37/b4099060491065.htm
The link reads:
If ever there was a car made for the times, this would seem to be it: a sporty subcompact that seats five, offers a navigation system, and gets a whopping 65 miles to the gallon. Oh yes, and the car is made by Ford Motor (F), known widely for lumbering gas hogs.
Ford's 2009 Fiesta ECOnetic goes on sale in November. But here's the catch: Despite the car's potential to transform Ford's image and help it compete with Toyota Motor (TM) and Honda Motor (HMC) in its home market, the company will sell the little fuel sipper only in Europe. "We know it's an awesome vehicle," says Ford America President Mark Fields. "But there are business reasons why we can't sell it in the U.S." The main one: The Fiesta ECOnetic runs on diesel.
Automakers such as Volkswagen (VLKAY) and Mercedes-Benz (DAI) have predicted for years that a technology called "clean diesel" would overcome many Americans' antipathy to a fuel still often thought of as the smelly stuff that powers tractor trailers. Diesel vehicles now hitting the market with pollution-fighting technology are as clean or cleaner than gasoline and at least 30% more fuel-efficient.
Yet while half of all cars sold in Europe last year ran on diesel, the U.S. market remains relatively unfriendly to the fuel. Taxes aimed at commercial trucks mean diesel costs anywhere from 40 cents to $1 more per gallon than gasoline. Add to this the success of the Toyota Prius, and you can see why only 3% of cars in the U.S. use diesel. "Americans see hybrids as the darling," says Global Insight auto analyst Philip Gott, "and diesel as old-tech."
None of this is stopping European and Japanese automakers, which are betting they can jump-start the U.S. market with new diesel models. Mercedes-Benz by next year will have three cars it markets as "BlueTec." Even Nissan (NSANY) and Honda, which long opposed building diesel cars in Europe, plan to introduce them in the U.S. in 2010. But Ford, whose Fiesta ECOnetic compares favorably with European diesels, can't make a business case for bringing the car to the U.S.
TOO PRICEY TO IMPORT
First of all, the engines are built in Britain, so labor costs are high. Plus the pound remains stronger than the greenback. At prevailing exchange rates, the Fiesta ECOnetic would sell for about $25,700 in the U.S. By contrast, the Prius typically goes for about $24,000. A $1,300 tax deduction available to buyers of new diesel cars could bring the price of the Fiesta to around $24,400. But Ford doesn't believe it could charge enough to make money on an imported ECOnetic.
Ford plans to make a gas-powered version of the Fiesta in Mexico for the U.S. So why not manufacture diesel engines there, too? Building a plant would cost at least $350 million at a time when Ford has been burning through more than $1 billion a month in cash reserves. Besides, the automaker would have to produce at least 350,000 engines a year to make such a venture profitable. "We just don't think North and South America would buy that many diesel cars," says Fields.
The question, of course, is whether the U.S. ever will embrace diesel fuel and allow automakers to achieve sufficient scale to make money on such vehicles. California certified VW and Mercedes diesel cars earlier this year, after a four-year ban. James N. Hall, of auto researcher 293 Analysts, says that bellwether state and the Northeast remain "hostile to diesel." But the risk to Ford is that the fuel takes off, and the carmaker finds itself playing catch-up—despite having a serious diesel contender in its arsenal.
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Frank
Explorer
A pretty interesting article. Scour the forums, people want diesel. -BTW, that article was from 2008- many ADVANCES in diesel have come a long since then.
Lets look at this:
MPG: 65
Lets say it has a 15g fuel tank
Diesel costs (locally) $3.80/g
-$57 for a fill up.
This car can go almost 1000 miles on a tank of diesel and be cleaner than gas.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 1.6ltr gas in the 2012 model gets 40mpg
15g fuel tank
Gas is (locally) $3.40/g
$51 fill up.
This car can 600 miles on a tank of gas
For $6 more per tank of fuel, you can go 400 more miles, cleaner.
That, IMO is a much easier way to market than a stupid battery powered car that can go 30 miles on a charge.
Lets look at this:
MPG: 65
Lets say it has a 15g fuel tank
Diesel costs (locally) $3.80/g
-$57 for a fill up.
This car can go almost 1000 miles on a tank of diesel and be cleaner than gas.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 1.6ltr gas in the 2012 model gets 40mpg
15g fuel tank
Gas is (locally) $3.40/g
$51 fill up.
This car can 600 miles on a tank of gas
For $6 more per tank of fuel, you can go 400 more miles, cleaner.
That, IMO is a much easier way to market than a stupid battery powered car that can go 30 miles on a charge.
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X-plorenow
Adventurer
I agree that the overland / offroad forums have been pushing for diesels, that is clear. What I don't know is if the general market is clamoring for them. Like the above article states, I think use consumers look more to the hybrids and electric as the answer. Does anyone know how much the general US market is pushing for diesel?
Frank
Explorer
That's because they make oil out to be the bad guy and the public buys it. People (like the Volt owners) are quickly learning what a battery power car is made of. Oh, and ask those Prius owners about replacing batteries.
Oil is bad because the govt and the media make it bad. It's been stated.
Oil is bad because the govt and the media make it bad. It's been stated.
Bill Beers
Explorer
1/10/12: "Expect diesel engines to be offered in the successor to the Ram Dakota small pickup and possibly the Dodge Durango midsize SUV, Chrysler CEO Sergio Marchionne says...The disclosure comes on the heels of confirmation the auto maker will next year offer a diesel engine in the Jeep Grand Cherokee, the Durango's platform-mate."
http://wardsauto.com/vehicles-amp-technology/chrysler-s-marchionne-hints-diesel-proliferation
pixelcodex
Observer
I must have missed the rude awakening altogether. The 2.8 Straight 4 VM Motori came out on Libertys in 05 and 06.
Bill Beers
Explorer
From the article I linked to above, (in post #56):
"Jim Morrison, Jeep product marketing director, notes Canadian-market penetration particularly was strong for the last diesel-powered Grand Cherokee, which featured a 3.0L V-6 supplied by Mercedes-Benz. Dealer orders accounted for some 70% of the mix, he tells WardsAuto."
Frank
Explorer
If you click the link, the first paragraph reads:
"Not content to leave its oil-burning models in Europe while diesel vehicles enjoy a resurgence in sales and consumer perception in the United States, Chrysler will offer Americans a diesel-engine option on the Jeep Grand Cherokee in 2013."
In big bold letters across the top of the image on the site it reads:
"Diesel power confirmed for 2013 Jeep Grand Cherokee, other large Chrysler vehicles"
Maybe I should revise post 1 for those who prefer to have things spoon fed.