Do you feel the need to be unarmed and defensless while camping?

[LocoCoyote]

I don't think guns are the answer to most confrontations; the ideal world would be one where differences and confrontations are settled peacefully....but I think we can all agree that isn't realistic, especially given human nature. I can tell you from personal experience, that there are many parts outside of the US, where the person with the gun is the one who dictates how the confrontation will be resolved....and the person without the gun is the one getting the raw end of that stick.

I've found that there are many areas in the world where you can travel with a reasonable amount of safety and confidence so long as you use common sense. But there are some areas in the world where I wouldn't go unless I had a full-strength infantry battalion with air support on call at my back. The context of the situation matters...

As for all that junk you were saying about people who carry firearms having insecurities...the stereotyping aside, I think you owe it to yourself to talk to people with views different from your own. Most of the gun-owners I know don't care about the political infighting associated with gun-ownership; they don't care about proving their manliness; they want nothing to do with a fight...they simply want to live their lives without being bothered. Owning and carrying a firearm in the US is a right, not a hobby, not a past-time or a symbol. I think that aspect of US gun-ownership evades most people from other countries, as most other countries never have and never intend to give that right to their citizens...hence why places like Australia and UK, while democracies, have been able to severely restrict gun ownership to the point where most of the population was disarmed.

I appreciate the rational discussions.....but this isn't necessarily about gun ownership (I already stated I am 100% for ownership)..it is about the need to be armed while camping (which for me means in the back country, away from most of the world). IMHO if you feel in danger and the need to be armed when you are AWAY from most of humanity (and let's be honest, that is where the biggest threat is...other people), then you ARE insecure. By definition if nothing else.

As for the rest..... again, in my experience, the only guns you come across....generally..... when traveling overseas is the ones in the hands of authorities (yes, when you think about that, it is a bit disturbing...but that is another discussion entirely). IN this case, you get the ****ty end of the stick anyway...guns or no guns.

we could probably discuss and restate our views over and over again and still not get anywhere with this.... let me leave it with this thought: If you are confronted by a armed stranger (what? robbery the most likely reason? for the sake of argument let's say that), then you lose your cash, maybe your watch...etc. If you are also armed....then someone is getting hurt...maybe killed. Is that bit of cash and watch worth a life?

 

[LocoCoyote]

IBTL..

BTW.. I carry everyday to protect me and mine.. The psychological issues that arise with taking another's life are huge, but nothing compared to losing a myself or a loved one when it could have been prevented.

And yes I do agree that bringing a firearm into a situation will escalate things, but if you are not the one that brought the firearm into the equation, typically the best way to de-escalate is to bring your own firearm to bear. In the military, it is taught that the best way to counter an ambush firefight is through superior firepower. The same is true is your average thug as well.

Curious why you feel all rational debate is over.......

BTW..that being able to outdraw a thug who has a gun on you.....only works in Hollywood and gaming consoles.

 

[Longrange308]

But you don't know if they are just going to take your things and run or if they will still plug you just for breathing. It happens all the time where cooperative victims still get hurt or killed.

I would much rather be able to escalate the situation and tip the scales in my favor, than be a truly helpless victim.


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[Longrange308]

Curious why you feel all rational debate is over.......

BTW..that being able to outdraw a thug who has a gun on you.....only works in Hollywood and gaming consoles.

Happens all the time. There was a story just recently about how a craigslist robbery scam ended with the bad guy being shot by the intended victims who were able to turn the tide on their attacker.

There are techniques and tactics that can be learned and utilized in such situations. A combination of a well timed distraction with the fact that action will almost always be faster than reaction could very well make it possible to win in such a situation where someone has gotten the jump on you.

Let's face it, sometimes there are situations where the only safe way out for you is violence of action that is so severe it deters your aggressors intent. I'm not saying I won't use my verbal judo first, the last thing I want to do is to hurt someone, even if they intend to do me harm, but I will be dammed if I won't give myself ever opportunity to survive.


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[LocoCoyote]

Happens all the time. There was a story just recently about how a craigslist robbery scam ended with the bad guy being shot by the intended victims who were able to turn the tide on their attacker.

There are techniques and tactics that can be learned and utilized in such situations. A combination of a well timed distraction with the fact that action will almost always be faster than reaction could very well make it possible to win in such a situation where someone has gotten the jump on you.

Let's face it, sometimes there are situations where the only safe way out for you is violence of action that is so severe it deters your aggressors intent. I'm not saying I won't use my verbal judo first, the last thing I want to do is to hurt someone, even if they intend to do me harm, but I will be dammed if I won't give myself ever opportunity to survive.


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I don't necessarily disagree. It is one thing to theorize and conjecture our way into resolution, but no two situations are the same. I think we can all agree the world seldom plays according to our plans and expectations.

I do wonder how many people who carry have such training as you mention. I am willing to bet the numbers are few.

 

[Dalko43]

I appreciate the rational discussions.....but this isn't necessarily about gun ownership (I already stated I am 100% for ownership)..it is about the need to be armed while camping (which for me means in the back country, away from most of the world). IMHO if you feel in danger and the need to be armed when you are AWAY from most of humanity (and let's be honest, that is where the biggest threat is...other people), then you ARE insecure. By definition if nothing else.

You're still missing the bigger picture...gun ownership and the right to carry, even while camping, go hand-in-hand. If you have a legal right to carry a firearm, then it shouldn't matter whether there is a proven risk or threat that would necessitate carrying in the first place. Same applies for 'freedom of press;' no one is going to take that right away from you simply because you have no reason/incentive to use it.

As for the rationale behind carrying while camping, IMHO, being away from civilization is all the more reason to carry, since help/aid is likely a far ways off should you get into trouble. Besides the hunting/survival utility that it offers, a firearm is a tool for self-defense. The likelihood of getting lost with GPS is fairly slim, but most smart campers will still carry a map and/or compass with them as a backup. Carrying a firearm is no different...most people carry it not because they intend to use it, but in case they have to. And given the remote areas some campers go, where law enforcement/rescue can be hours, if not days away, there is nothing wrong with that policy.

As for the rest..... again, in my experience, the only guns you come across....generally..... when traveling overseas is the ones in the hands of authorities (yes, when you think about that, it is a bit disturbing...but that is another discussion entirely). IN this case, you get the ****ty end of the stick anyway...guns or no guns.

I promise you there are plenty of places where the military and civil authorities amount to no more than thugs with guns...as well there are plenty of places where there are significant armed criminal elements....and I wouldn't go into some of those places unless with an armed escort....like I said, context matters.

we could probably discuss and restate our views over and over again and still not get anywhere with this.... let me leave it with this thought: If you are confronted by a armed stranger (what? robbery the most likely reason? for the sake of argument let's say that), then you lose your cash, maybe your watch...etc. If you are also armed....then someone is getting hurt...maybe killed. Is that bit of cash and watch worth a life?

The problem with this hypothetical situation is just that, it's hypothetical. In hindsight, it's obviously easy to figure out the motives/intent of an armed criminal, but while the crime is happening, you'll likely have no clue what their goals are. How many rapes and murders or serious assaults happen because of armed criminals taking advantage of defenseless victims? How many of those criminals started out with the intent to rob, but then transitioned to greater crimes because of opportunities that they saw? I'm not pretending that I have any numbers or statistics on this; I'm simply saying that I'm not interested in assuming that risk.

As for someone getting hurt or killed...most people who carry do so to avoid that fate. And if a robber or murderer or rapist gets killed by their intended victim in self-defense, I have only this to say: 'You reap what you sow.'

 

[mvbeggs]

Wow!

What a typically American thing to discuss....

From your arguments and condescending tone of your very first statement, sounds like you are, and will be, very happy living in Germany.

Problem is....I am an American. Also, before moving over here, I was a active hunter and action handgun shooter. I am also very pro gun ownership....

Being American (US citizen?) a problem???
Funny, that thought has never occurred to me. I know that probably wasn't what you meant...but you did write it. If you did mean it, my guess is that "problem" can be resolved by visiting your local embassy.

BTW, if you are going to try to make serious arguments here, you might want to think about changing your username. LOL

 

[LocoCoyote]

The "problem is" reference was to one of the previous posters disregarding my comments because I was foreign....so in effect it was a referral to their misassumption.
I am a bit peeved at your tone....seeming to assume the US is better off without my insignificant self.... Not sure what you what to say here...just know I spent 20 years of my adult life defending our nation and its ideals. Never doubt my patriotism and the fact that I am an American. What living and traveling overseas has done, is to break me out of the typical self centered tunnel vision most American's have.


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[Dalko43]

Not sure what you what to say here...just know I spent 20 years of my adult life defending our nation and its ideals. Never doubt my patriotism and the fact that I am an American. What living and traveling overseas has done, is to break me out of the typical self centered tunnel vision most American's have.


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So you and a select few others who think like you are the only ones who have clarity on this issue? Would you mind passing me the cool-aid so that I can imbibe and become "enlightened" too?

You're not the only person on this forum who has traveled the world or served....in fact, more than a few people on this forum have done just that. My own experiences have brought me to the realization that the world has many interesting and great people and it also has some very bad people. So to imply that the desire to own and carry a firearm in the US is the result of narrow-mindedness and "tunnel vision" totally ignores that bad element that does exist (which, in and of itself, is its own form of "tunnel vision").

If you can accept that America is a democratic republic intended to protect the rights of the majority and minority, and all the pluralities in between, you'll have a whole lot less to complain about.

 

[plainjaneFJC]

Loco views it a bit different, but at least he is NOT advocating taking away guns. I can see where he is coming from.

 

[LocoCoyote]

Yea, we are waaaaaaay off topic here. This isn't about the right to keep and bear arms, or the right to carry. It's about carrying a firearm for the purpose of self defense while camping ( overlanding). I am a supporter of the 2nd amendment and the right of any responsible person to carry wherever they please. What I saying in this thread, is that I find it strange that some people in the US feel the need ( NOT want or right, the NEED) to carry a self defense firearm in the back country of their own land. I wonder at the sense of danger one must feel to have such a need. This is the insecurity I was speaking about. I mentioned that I live and travel overseas and I do not live my life with this constant fear of needing to defend myself from an attacker at any moments notice. Therefore, I do not feel any need to carry a firearm. I am confident in myself , my surroundings, and the ability to keep myself out of situations where I might need to resort to such an extreme measure.

That's it. That is all I am saying.


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[Team Ball's Out]

Always armed while camping.

 

[EMrider]

Yea, we are waaaaaaay off topic here. This isn't about the right to keep and bear arms, or the right to carry. It's about carrying a firearm for the purpose of self defense while camping ( overlanding). I am a supporter of the 2nd amendment and the right of any responsible person to carry wherever they please. What I saying in this thread, is that I find it strange that some people in the US feel the need ( NOT want or right, the NEED) to carry a self defense firearm in the back country of their own land. I wonder at the sense of danger one must feel to have such a need. This is the insecurity I was speaking about. I mentioned that I live and travel overseas and I do not live my life with this constant fear of needing to defend myself from an attacker at any moments notice. Therefore, I do not feel any need to carry a firearm. I am confident in myself , my surroundings, and the ability to keep myself out of situations where I might need to resort to such an extreme measure.

That's it. That is all I am saying.


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I appreciate your points and feel you've made them clearly too.

On your point about those who choose to camp with a gun being motivated by insecurity, I'd suggest that the motivation is really vulnerability, not insecurity. It certainly is mine.

Insecurity implies an unrealistic assessment on the likelihood of the actual threats you might face. Sort of like seeing bad guys in every shadow.

Vulnerability is the realization that should you encounter trouble, you are on your own. Despite my best efforts, I mis-judge people and situations all the time. Judgment is fallible, and because I know this, I am not always confident in my ability to get out of a bad situation with my words or smarts.



R

 

[colierar]

It is way off topic, but it still is a great conversation and great arguments from both points of view. That being said, I have a 12 gauge shotgun that always stays in the camper and depending on the setting, (family campground or deep woods) is whether or not I carry on my person. I just like being prepared when I am out and about. Kinda the whole idea of this website, being prepared for whatever comes our way. Why else would we carry so much stuff in our vehicles. At least I do.

LocoCoyote sorry for the dig at the beginning...

 

[LocoCoyote]

LocoCoyote sorry for the dig at the beginning...

No worries.....ain't as thin skinned as all that! Besides, I love it when folks can defend their point of view intelligently....kind of why I hang out on this forum and not some others.