Do you feel the need to be unarmed and defensless while camping?

[Dalko43]

Yea, we are waaaaaaay off topic here. This isn't about the right to keep and bear arms, or the right to carry. It's about carrying a firearm for the purpose of self defense while camping ( overlanding). I am a supporter of the 2nd amendment and the right of any responsible person to carry wherever they please. What I saying in this thread, is that I find it strange that some people in the US feel the need ( NOT want or right, the NEED) to carry a self defense firearm in the back country of their own land. I wonder at the sense of danger one must feel to have such a need. This is the insecurity I was speaking about. I mentioned that I live and travel overseas and I do not live my life with this constant fear of needing to defend myself from an attacker at any moments notice. Therefore, I do not feel any need to carry a firearm. I am confident in myself , my surroundings, and the ability to keep myself out of situations where I might need to resort to such an extreme measure.

That's it. That is all I am saying.

Not off topic at all. If you have a right to carry a firearm, and you do so in a way that doesn't affect someone else's rights, you shouldn't have to justify or validate your decision to carry. The whole topic of whether carrying a firearm is "needed" or not is a moot point.

That aside, I don't think most who carry firearms do so out of fear or insecurity (that's a media-inspired stereotype more than anything else); rather they have a realistic view of the world, the same view that I do: while most people intend you no harm, there are some genuinely bad people with bad intentions in this world. A decision to carry is simply back-up measure in the off chance that you encounter some of those bad people.

 

[LocoCoyote]

Not off topic at all. If you have a right to carry a firearm, and you do so in a way that doesn't affect someone else's rights, you shouldn't have to justify or validate your decision to carry. The whole topic of whether carrying a firearm is "needed" or not is a moot point.

That aside, I don't think most who carry firearms do so out of fear or insecurity (that's a media-inspired stereotype more than anything else); rather they have a realistic view of the world, the same view that I do: while most people intend you no harm, there are some genuinely bad people with bad intentions in this world. A decision to carry is simply back-up measure in the off chance that you encounter some of those bad people.

If the world is so dangerous as you say (and I am not saying it isn't ) then why is this need to carry something that only Americans seem to feel? And that in America! In Other places this need doesn't seem to be felt....I base that on never having met anyone outside of the US who has ever expressed to me the feeling that they wished they were armed. ( speaking of traveling....camping). Has the US become so dangerous that even when we are away from population centers, we still are concerned enough that we must carry a firearm?



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[Dalko43]

If the world is so dangerous as you say (and I am not saying it isn't ) then why is this need to carry something that only Americans seem to feel? And that in America! In Other places this need doesn't seem to be felt....I base that on never having met anyone outside of the US who has ever expressed to me the feeling that they wished they were armed. ( speaking of traveling....camping). Has the US become so dangerous that even when we are away from population centers, we still are concerned enough that we must carry a firearm?

A) America has its dangerous places, for sure. But there are plenty of dangerous places outside of America, many of which I would never go to even if I had a firearm. Didn't you yourself acknowledge that in an earlier post?

I am confident in myself , my surroundings, and the ability to keep myself out of situations where I might need to resort to such an extreme measure.

As you said, it's all about knowing your surroundings.

B) I don't think most Americans who carry do so because they are afraid or expecting violence. They carry because it's an individual right afforded to them. If you have that right, and you know bad people exist in the world, what's wrong with having a backup tool at your disposal?

The idea of an armed and self-reliant civilian population is a foreign concept to most people from outside the US. It's also an idea that many other foreign governments are not willing to entertain. So it's no surprise that many of the people you've met have never felt the need to be armed...it's likely it was never an option for decision for them to make in the first place.

 

[MTSN]

...it is about the need to be armed while camping (which for me means in the back country, away from most of the world). IMHO if you feel in danger and the need to be armed when you are AWAY from most of humanity (and let's be honest, that is where the biggest threat is...other people), then you ARE insecure. By definition if nothing else.

I wonder if this whole family (except one "lucky" woman who escaped) that was murdered recently while trying to get away from other people and have a relaxing camping trip would have been more or less "insecure" if one or more of them were armed. I think that although the majority of the people in this world are decent, there are bad people out there who do unspeakable things for unknown reasons. If someone chooses to arm themselves to protect themselves and their loved ones against an extremely unlikely but ultimately devastating act of violence like in the below story, they are not, as you call them, "insecure" - quite the contrary.

I ride motorcycles quite a bit on and off road and never expect to crash, but I wear the right gear just in case. I don't expect to ever have to use my gun to protect myself or my family, but it's always there just in case.

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/151076-Texas-Camp-Site-Attack
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/man-charged-after-6-found-dead-at-texas-campsite/

 

[LocoCoyote]

I wonder if this whole family (except one "lucky" woman who escaped) that was murdered recently while trying to get away from other people and have a relaxing camping trip would have been more or less "insecure" if one or more of them were armed. I think that although the majority of the people in this world are decent, there are bad people out there who do unspeakable things for unknown reasons. If someone chooses to arm themselves to protect themselves and their loved ones against an extremely unlikely but ultimately devastating act of violence like in the below story, they are not, as you call them, "insecure" - quite the contrary.

I ride motorcycles quite a bit on and off road and never expect to crash, but I wear the right gear just in case. I don't expect to ever have to use my gun to protect myself or my family, but it's always there just in case.

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/151076-Texas-Camp-Site-Attack
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/man-charged-after-6-found-dead-at-texas-campsite/

Touché !

But wouldn't a more accurate analogy be that you would wear your motorcycle gear all the time (not just riding) for fear of getting into some kind of accident?

You correctly point out that the world.....all of it really, can be a dangerous place. NO arguments from me on that. Bad things happen and I don't think anyone is ever totally safe, ever. How could we be? People will always act in their own self-interest (well, most people anyway) and if that somehow involves doing bad things to other people....well, we have seen the results all too often, no?

I don't think having a gun changes that....in fact, I think it could be detrimental in some cases. As I said earlier, the presence of a firearm will immediately escalate any confrontation. What before may have been just a possible loss of property or verbal argument, etc, suddenly has the potential to be fatal. Justified or not, taking a life is a terrible thing.

I also believe that carrying a firearm alters the way the person carrying acts and thinks. They tend to feel more secure (remember those insecurity comments I keep making?) and a little bit invulnerable. They are now tough and ready to take on the world (and if they need a weapon to feel this way....insecurity again). Ok, maybe I am blowing that out of proportion a bit to make my point.....but it does alter the way folks think. Take the not too distant Zimmerman incident.... armed with a handgun, Zimmerman no doubt felt able to confront the suspicious person he was following...would he have done so without being armed?

Bottom line, you feel braver when armed (I already can hear the keyboards clicking ready to denounce this statement....but if you truly consider it, you will see its true. If it wasn't, you wouldn't feel the need to be armed).

In the end, it is good to have the choice to carry or not.

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[MTSN]

Touché !

But wouldn't a more accurate analogy be that you would wear your motorcycle gear all the time (not just riding) for fear of getting into some kind of accident?

You correctly point out that the world.....all of it really, can be a dangerous place. NO arguments from me on that. Bad things happen and I don't think anyone is ever totally safe, ever. How could we be? People will always act in their own self-interest (well, most people anyway) and if that somehow involves doing bad things to other people....well, we have seen the results all too often, no?

I don't think having a gun changes that....in fact, I think it could be detrimental in some cases. As I said earlier, the presence of a firearm will immediately escalate any confrontation. What before may have been just a possible loss of property or verbal argument, etc, suddenly has the potential to be fatal. Justified or not, taking a life is a terrible thing.

I also believe that carrying a firearm alters the way the person carrying acts and thinks. They tend to feel more secure (remember those insecurity comments I keep making?) and a little bit invulnerable. They are now tough and ready to take on the world (and if they need a weapon to feel this way....insecurity again). Ok, maybe I am blowing that out of proportion a bit to make my point.....but it does alter the way folks think. Take the not too distant Zimmerman incident.... armed with a handgun, Zimmerman no doubt felt able to confront the suspicious person he was following...would he have done so without being armed?

Bottom line, you feel braver when armed (I already can hear the keyboards clicking ready to denounce this statement....but if you truly consider it, you will see its true. If it wasn't, you wouldn't feel the need to be armed).

In the end, it is good to have the choice to carry or not.

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I won't respond to the bulk of your post as I'm not interested in changing your mind (and you won't by anything anyone here will tell you), and I don't really care what you think about me or anyone else who chooses to be armed. You're the type of person I can see who will just repeat the same position over and over slightly shifting around words, and that's fine - it's what most of us do when we feel strongly about something.

What I will respond to is that I do not gear up on my motorcycle, bicycle, snowboard, etc. because of fear. If I was afraid, I simply wouldn't do any of those activities. I wear a helmet and spine protector on my snowboard because I've been known to crash every now and then, and I'd rather not get a traumatic brain injury or be paralyzed from a stupid landing that I miss on the once every 2 years I try to jump off something (I fail more than I succeed btw). I wear full moto gear because I can remember a time when I looked at the scenery a little too long and got my front wheel lodged in a rut that launched me onto the ground and my dirt bike landed on top of my well guarded ankle, and I walked away thankfully without so much as a bruise. I put snow tires on all of our vehicles for the winter time because I prefer to be prepared for when the roads are icy, and I'd rather not be a jerk and get in a wreck causing a big traffic jam behind me. I keep water, food, tools, flares, a first aid kit, recovery gear, radios, etc. in my Jeep not because I'm afraid something bad will happen, but because I want to be prepared if the unfortunate happens. There is a massive difference in my eyes, and if you choose to see it another way that works better for how you see the world, that is OK by me.

 

[LocoCoyote]

I won't respond to the bulk of your post as I'm not interested in changing your mind (and you won't by anything anyone here will tell you), and I don't really care what you think about me or anyone else who chooses to be armed. You're the type of person I can see who will just repeat the same position over and over slightly shifting around words, and that's fine - it's what most of us do when we feel strongly about something.

What I will respond to is that I do not gear up on my motorcycle, bicycle, snowboard, etc. because of fear. If I was afraid, I simply wouldn't do any of those activities. I wear a helmet and spine protector on my snowboard because I've been known to crash every now and then, and I'd rather not get a traumatic brain injury or be paralyzed from a stupid landing that I miss on the once every 2 years I try to jump off something (I fail more than I succeed btw). I wear full moto gear because I can remember a time when I looked at the scenery a little too long and got my front wheel lodged in a rut that launched me onto the ground and my dirt bike landed on top of my well guarded ankle, and I walked away thankfully without so much as a bruise. I put snow tires on all of our vehicles for the winter time because I prefer to be prepared for when the roads are icy, and I'd rather not be a jerk and get in a wreck causing a big traffic jam behind me. I keep water, food, tools, flares, a first aid kit, recovery gear, radios, etc. in my Jeep not because I'm afraid something bad will happen, but because I want to be prepared if the unfortunate happens. There is a massive difference in my eyes, and if you choose to see it another way that works better for how you see the world, that is OK by me.

Isn't that why we call it a discussion?

 

[Happykamper]

I'm not going to defend my views on this topic. And I won't be long winded .
But I carry everywhere I go, yes even to church. I won't be a willing statistic, I carry several weapons in my rigs and in my home.
I won't go trying to talk some scum bag into enlightenment .
If I go I won't go willing nor will I go alone.
As for phsyc issues after a life has been taken. I am a vet I served well , yes I fired my weapon and yes someone ..a real person died because of it. And I sleep very well thank you.

I am a firearm carrying proud NRA card carrying American .
And as Forest Gump would say, that's all I have to say about that.

 

[LocoCoyote]

I won't go trying to talk some scum bag into enlightenment .
If I go I won't go willing nor will I go alone.

I fired my weapon and yes someone ..a real person died because of it. And I sleep very well thank you.

wow. That is so sad. You have my sympathy

 

[Joker]

BTW..that being able to outdraw a thug who has a gun on you.....only works in Hollywood and gaming consoles.

Really? Only?


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9ad_1436341627

 

[Dalko43]

Isn't that why we call it a discussion?

This is a discussion, but you don't seem to want to acknowledge that other people have valid views that are different from your own on this topic...even though numerous posters here have said they respect your decision to not carry.

You also claim to be pro 2nd amendment, but yet you see no reason or justification for people to carry when camping, other than their supposed "insecurity."

The 2nd amendment, like several others, was not created on the condition that people could only use it if there was a want or need for it...it most definitely wasn't created for hunting. It was written to establish a certain type of relationship between the US government and the citizens that government is sworn to serve. If you truly understood and appreciated the intent behind the 2nd amendment, you'd realize that the debate of whether or not someone needs to carry is a moot point.

Most people who carry aren't insecure, John Wayne, gung-ho types, despite your best attempts to characterize them as that way....and the more you make reference to that kind of stereotype, the less and less people on this thread are going to take you seriously.

 

[LocoCoyote]

This is a discussion, but you don't seem to want to acknowledge that other people have valid views that are different from your own on this topic...even though numerous posters here have said they respect your decision to not carry.

You also claim to be pro 2nd amendment, but yet you see no reason or justification for people to carry when camping, other than their supposed "insecurity."

The 2nd amendment, like several others, was not created on the condition that people could only use it if there was a want or need for it...it most definitely wasn't created for hunting. It was written to establish a certain type of relationship between the US government and the citizens that government is sworn to serve. If you truly understood and appreciated the intent behind the 2nd amendment, you'd realize that the debate of whether or not someone needs to carry is a moot point.

Most people who carry aren't insecure, John Wayne, gung-ho types, despite your best attempts to characterize them as that way....and the more you make reference to that kind of stereotype, the less and less people on this thread are going to take you seriously.

Maybe you should go back and read my posts again....I haven't said anything about nobody should carry. I also have tried time and again to keep this from being a discussion about the right to carry. I have not disputed that once.

The question was about carrying while out in the boonies camping. My sole point on this is that if people feel the need to be able to defend themselves even while far away from most people... That is the insecurity I was referring to. Sorry if I hit too close to home ( don't shoot me!)

Yes, the conversation has wandered around a bit ( as conversations do). Don't recall disrespecting anyone else's opinion, though.





As for if you or anyone else takes me seriously? Yes, well I probably could care less...but it wouldn't be much.


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[Klierslc]

wow. That is so sad. You have my sympathy

Really?

What is sad about his statement? That he has a clear conscience after killing an enemy combatant? That he is willing to use deadly force to protect his own life? That he doesn't want to be in a situation where words are his only defense?

I don't suspect that your sympathy is needed or wanted.

Your posts are typically well thought out and articulate, but you are mischaracterizing nearly everyone who carries concealed with your thoughts. We do not become invulnerable, we will not automatically pull our guns and make situations worse, and we are very informed about the consequences if we need to use our weapons. If anything, most of us become more cautious as we would overwhelmingly prefer to de-escalate a situation rather than shoot someone(Zimmerman was an idiot and can't be logically used to characterize the community). As a retired service member, you are probably familiar with the concept of the sheepdog--if not, you should read up on it--that is why most of us carry.

 

[LocoCoyote]

Easy brother.... You hit the nail on the head when you said these are my thoughts....that is what I bring to a forum post. You need not agree or even read them if they seem wrong to you. For me, I find a healthy exchange of ideas...even those I disagree with....to be a good thing. Consider this also...one can gain insight into things by challenging intelligent people about their beliefs. It is refreshing to hear some of the rebuttals that have appeared here. Shows that some folk are not just spouting meaningless drivel, rather they are defending their views and opinions very engagingly. I may not agree with everything said, but I darned sure respect it. I will accept the minor abuse directed my way as the price of a good, internet based conversation


As to the first question...I.e. Why that is sad... Just this: the taking of any life without remorse is at the very least a symptom of a sociopath ...worst case a psychopath. That is by definition, not an accusation.

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[Klierslc]

Maybe you should go back and read my posts again....I haven't said anything about nobody should carry. I also have tried time and again to keep this from being a discussion about the right to carry. I have not disputed that once.

The question was about carrying while out in the boonies camping. My sole point on this is that if people feel the need to be able to defend themselves even while far away from most people... That is the insecurity I was referring to. Sorry if I hit too close to home ( don't shoot me!)

Yes, the conversation has wandered around a bit ( as conversations do). Don't recall disrespecting anyone else's opinion, though.




As for if you or anyone else takes me seriously? Yes, well I probably could care less...but it wouldn't be much.


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So, being out in the boonies makes one safe? There are plenty of documented violent encounters with critters of the 4 legged and 2 legged variety while out in the woods. If you go out camping in the backcountry, you probably won't have a problem, but if you do, it pays to be prepared. Possible uses of a standard pistol while backcountry camping listed below.

-Self defense against predatory critters
-Self defense against scavengers if you happen to get injured
-defense of others
-signal for help (three rounds into the dirt=call for help)
-dispatch wounded animal
-target shooting
-food procurement

Insecurity has nothing to do with the discussion--just as you are prepared for a vehicle problem with a fire extinguisher, tool kit, and spare tire, you are also prepared to deal with other unlikely scenarios. I wouldn't say that people who go camping with ONLY the things they need are "secure" , I'd say they are dumb and a liability. On the other hand, people who go to the other extreme and bring everything that they can possibly think that they might want are equally dumb.

It comes down to risk and probability... An engine fire is very rare, but it can be catastrophic if left unchecked, therefore we bring a fire extinguisher. A flat is relatively common so we bring a spare/patch kit even though a flat tire isn't a huge deal. Engine failure is rare, but is a pretty big deal. However, it isn't feasible to bring a spare engine and the tools to swap it out--spare engine stays home. Getting robbed/raped/murdered/eaten is very rare but also a pretty big deal--bringing along a firearm is not difficult, so why would you not bring one? (other uses are just added benefits)