Do you feel the need to be unarmed and defensless while camping?

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Dalko43

Explorer
Although gun ownership is ostensibly protected by the Constitution,

I would disagree that gun ownership is "ostensibly" protected by the Constitution. It is quite explicitly explained as an individual right in the Constitution and there are several Supreme Court decisions (District of Columbia vs Heller being the most well known one) which emphasize and reinforce that right. "Ostensibly" would suggest that there is some legal ambiguity or disagreement over whether firearm ownership is supposed to be an individual right; while there are many different opinions on this issue, the overwhelming majority of case law has acknowledged that it is an individual right.

gun ownership already carries limitations. Regulations already exist. We're simply talking about better, more effective regulations, and understanding criminals don't abide by them.

You're absolutely right; there are many limitations and regulations in place for firearms ownership. The biggest loophole perhaps is that private sales don't require background checks. That aside everyone who purchases a firearm from a vendor must undergo a background check. Fully auto firearms are prohibited, with with a few exceptions for people/vendors who get the proper licensing.

The issue is not that America's existing firearm regulations are woefully inadequate. It's that there is a huge criminal demand for firearms, and a large blackmarket in place which is catering to that demand. We've also outlawed many different types of drugs, but that doesn't stop criminals from getting them and selling them in an industry which generates tens of Billions of $ every year.

I'd be interested in hearing from you and others what "better" regulations we could put in place to regulate firearms. For the most part, we have fairly thorough checks on firearms sales (with the exception of private sales). In my area of NY, a law-abiding citizen has to put up with a year-long wait to find out whether or not he/she is approved for a pistol permit and semi-auto rifles and so-called "assault weapon" features are banned or highly restricted, but criminals have no problem getting a hold of either type of weapon and using them in crimes.

If you acknowledge that criminals aren't going to obey these laws in the first place, then why is it so important that we levy additional restrictions on firearm ownership for the law-abiding citizen? It seems to me that such an action merely makes it harder for the law-abiding to get a weapon while the criminals still conduct their business as usual.

But, we already have that particular "right" interpreted through laws as it is. Same for the First Amendment. You have freedom of speech, but you can't say anything without repercussions. Threats, libel and slander come to mind. So, the use of the word "rights" has some inherent framework we have to work within.

This analogy you use and has been regurgitated over and over again on certain media channels, but it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. There are limitations to a person's First Amendment rights. But a person is not preemptively gagged prior to making a slanderous or harmful (think crying "fire" in a crowded theater) statement. Rather, they are punished after the fact. Your right to free speech is not restricted beforehand, rather you are punished afterwards if it is deemed that you spoke in slanderous or dangerous fashion.

The difference relative to all of these proposed and existing gun regulations, is that the government is preemptively restricting and in some cases taking away the individual citizen's right to possess certain firearms. The punishment or "gag" order is being universally administered before any crime has been committed in an attempt to keep a few bad people from using the weapons in a criminal fashion.

There are many limitations on some of our individual rights, firearm ownership included. But many people, yourself included, acknowledge that new laws will mostly affect those who obey the law while criminals will continue to ignore said laws. So why is it so important to further restrict firearm ownership? The only real change i can think of is added background checks for private sales...everything else being proposed is simply pandering to an ignorant part of the population which believes that putting new laws on the books will somehow magically take away a criminal's ability to get weapons.
 
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plainjaneFJC

Deplorable
Really? I didn't even know we were "competing" and that there was anything to "win."

I saw one of your posts and responded to it. Should I not have done that?

Many people cannot wrap their minds around the idea that we have a right to carry. Its one thing if they don't want to carry, but that's not good enough unless your unarmed as well.
 

Christophe Noel

Expedition Leader
Many people cannot wrap their minds around the idea that we have a right to carry. Its one thing if they don't want to carry, but that's not good enough unless your unarmed as well.
And I'm not in that crowd. Within the scope of this discussion, no, I do not feel the need to carry. I have deemed the threat of violence to myself as pretty low. As a citizen, I would actually prefer there be more controls on gun ownership. I also prefer not to travel around people who carry - if - I am unsure of their level of training. Beyond that, I'm not trying to change anyone's opinions or out anyone as having a flawed view of gun ownership.

So Dalko, I'm not competing nor am I trying to get anyone to alter their opinions. Just expressing mine.
 

Christophe Noel

Expedition Leader
I read in your earlier posts that you have no experience with firearms.
Actually, I grew up in the midwest, took hunter safety courses, hunted a little bit and eventually joined a competitive rifle team and even competed in biathlon. In my opinion, the gun culture I grew up with in the early 80s shifted. I no longer identify with our current climate of gun advocacy and ownership. I'm personally not comfortable with where we sit today with regard to our gun culture. That's all. So, while I am by no means trained to defend myself with guns, I'm not a stranger to them.
 

plainjaneFJC

Deplorable
Actually, I grew up in the midwest, took hunter safety courses, hunted a little bit and eventually joined a competitive rifle team and even competed in biathlon. In my opinion, the gun culture I grew up with in the early 80s shifted. I no longer identify with our current climate of gun advocacy and ownership. I'm personally not comfortable with where we sit today with regard to our gun culture. That's all. So, while I am by no means trained to defend myself with guns, I'm not a stranger to them.

Back in those days kids would bring their guns to school, they would hunt before school. So IMO it was less restrictive. Nowadays they would call SWAT and lockdown a square mile.
 

mvbeggs

Adventurer
Actually, I grew up in the midwest, took hunter safety courses, hunted a little bit and eventually joined a competitive rifle team and even competed in biathlon.... ...I'm not a stranger to them.

For some reason I read your earlier post that you had very little exposure to firearms. Glad to hear that isn't the case.

I'm curious, what makes you most nervous about traveling with those that choose to travel with a firearm?
 

Christophe Noel

Expedition Leader
For some reason I read your earlier post that you had very little exposure to firearms. Glad to hear that isn't the case.

I'm curious, what makes you most nervous about traveling with those that choose to travel with a firearm?
People make mistakes, as evidenced by injuries around camp, car crashes, etc. Mistakes with firearms carry severe consequences. It's the same reason I'm hesitant to ride with some drivers, or when I was an avid climber, why I trusted some people over others.

I've camped with people I don't trust to cook breakfast. The last thing I want is for those people to be on some self-appointed security detail. LOL.
 

Dalko43

Explorer
I understand people are going to have different opinions on this matter, especially on an internet forum of all places. I think one of the defining characteristics of American society is that there are a great deal of different groups, opinions, stances, causes, that, despite their bickering and arguing, somehow find a way to coexist with one another. Not so in many other countries, where you can be arrested or persecuted for simply expressing a contrarian viewpoint, regardless of whether or not you plan on acting on it.

All that said, it is quite frustrating to me, as I'm sure it is to some others on this forum, when I see blatant stereotyping of the other side of the coin on certain issues, like firearm ownership possession:

I've camped with people I don't trust to cook breakfast. The last thing I want is for those people to be on some self-appointed security detail. LOL.

I realize you have your own personal comfort level and risk assessment when it comes to this issue. I don't write these long responses to your posts because I have some grand plan to change your mind on this issue. I write them to demonstrate to you that perhaps there is another perspective on this issue which you fail to appreciate. I don't carry a weapon because I think I'm on some "self-appointed security detail" hoping to run into a bad guy and neither do most of the firearm owners I have met throughout my life. If that were a prevalent attitude among the millions of firearm owners in this country, you'd think we'd have a lot more George Zimmerman incidents happening on a weekly basis.

Maybe you've seen personal acquaintances exhibit that rambo mentality; if so, I feel sorry for you because the overwhelming majority of gun owners that I know don't act like that. Quite honestly, I can't even come up with one name of someone I personally know who acts like that.
 
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mvbeggs

Adventurer
I understand people are going to have different opinions on this matter,... regardless of whether or not you plan on acting on it.

People make mistakes, as evidenced by injuries around camp, car crashes, etc. Mistakes with firearms carry severe consequences. It's the same reason I'm hesitant to ride with some drivers, or when I was an avid climber, why I trusted some people over others.

I've camped with people I don't trust to cook breakfast. The last thing I want is for those people to be on some self-appointed security detail. LOL.

All that said, it is quite frustrating to me, as I'm sure it is to some others on this forum, when I see blatant stereotyping of the other side of the coin on certain issues, like firearm ownership possession:...

I think the internet, once again, failed to communicate the sarcasm of Noel's post. At least that is how I read it. (you might have missed the "LOL", at the end.)
 

Dalko43

Explorer
I think the internet, once again, failed to communicate the sarcasm of Noel's post. At least that is how I read it. (you might have missed the "LOL", at the end.)

I saw the "LOL" at the end and I don't think it was intended to convey sarcasm, at least not in the manner that you are interpreting it.
 

mvbeggs

Adventurer
People make mistakes, as evidenced by injuries around camp, car crashes, etc. Mistakes with firearms carry severe consequences. It's the same reason I'm hesitant to ride with some drivers, or when I was an avid climber, why I trusted some people over others.

I've camped with people I don't trust to cook breakfast. The last thing I want is for those people to be on some self-appointed security detail. LOL.

Total U.S. Population (2010): 308,745,538
Total Unintentional Fatalities 120,859 100%
Total Unintentional Fatalitiesnumber% of total
Motor Vehicle33,68727.9%
Poisoning33,041 27.3%
Falls 26,009 21.5%
Suffocation 6,165 5.1%
Drowning 3,782 3.1%
Fires, Flames & Smoke 2,845 2.4%
Natural / Environmental 1,576 1.3%
Transportation (other than land) 875 0.7%
Struck By / Against Object 788 0.7%
Firearms 606 0.5%
Source: CDC WISQARS Injury Mortality Reports (2010 data)
Taken from: http://www.nssf.org/PDF/research/IIR_InjuryStatistics2013.pdf accessed 12-14-2015

As you can see you might be over reacting a little on the firearm thing. There are many OTHER activities much more likely to get you. ;-) But, good call on the cooking thing- poisoning pretty high on the list. :)
 

chet6.7

Explorer
And I'm not in that crowd. Within the scope of this discussion, no, I do not feel the need to carry. I have deemed the threat of violence to myself as pretty low. As a citizen, I would actually prefer there be more controls on gun ownership. I also prefer not to travel around people who carry - if - I am unsure of their level of training. Beyond that, I'm not trying to change anyone's opinions or out anyone as having a flawed view of gun ownership.

So Dalko, I'm not competing nor am I trying to get anyone to alter their opinions. Just expressing mine.
What additional controls would you like to see?
 
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