SunTzuNephew
Explorer
A .45-70 lever is pretty good at killing unhappy bears.
Do you feel the need to have a weapon when camping
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john101477
Photographer in the Wild
Baca, the Taurus Judge!!! what a pistol. I actually just bought a millennium pro pt145 (my first plastic gun lol). great little shooter. I feel the need of another revolver though. :victory:
I am amazed this thread is still going lol. thought it would be axed long ago
baca327
Adventurer
I have a PT140 matter of fact and I'm seriously debating on getting the Judge. I think I'm gonna hold out till the ported barrel version hits stores. I really like my pt140 I replaced the the sights to a three dot sight instead of the stock sights I think I paid like 40 for the sights and 15 to get them installed. Accuracy was improved dramatically I highly recommend this mod.
Rbertalotto
Explorer
Bird shot + Bear = You lose!
I personally witnessed a wounded 350 pound black bear take a 12 ga slug directly into the breast plate at 10 yards and it had zero effect. After I shot the bear in the head with a 270Win we skinned it and found the slug flattened out under the skin with no penetration. The guide had always used a shot gun as back up in bear country but had never had to use it. He immediately switched to a 45-70 Marlin "Guide Gun"!
I've shot three bears while hunting. One with a rifle that was a perfect heart/lung hit and the 325 black bear still went over 100 yards before death. The next two I shot with handguns (454 Casull and a TC Contender in "30 Something" wildcat) Both were in extremely dense woods and I thought if the bears ran any distance I'd lose them. So both were head shots and the bear never twitched.
I've video taped a number of relatively small bears (250-475 pounds) being shot with rifles and everyone traveled a fair distance before death. Other than a spine shot or a head shot, I'm not sure any firearm will STOP a bear if it is charging you.
If the under 500 pound black bears I've witnessed being shot could absorb the likes of 30-06, 7mm Rem Mag, 284 Win and 45-70, I can't imagine how much punishment a 1000 Grizzly could take.........
Using bird shot or "not enough gun" simply creates a very dangerous wounded bear that will have a terrible attitude the next time it encounters a human.
Rbertalotto
Explorer
You folks need to do some homework before you get yourselves hurt out there...
A 410 Shot gun slug, right at the muzzle, has less that 800 foot pounds of energy. Some states won't let you hunt Whitetail Deer with such a weak cartridge. Most feel you need a start of 1000 Ft pounds for any game animal over 150 pounds for a clean kill. the Judge is very good marketing, nothing more. With buck shot, it might prove a good home defense gun against two legged varmints. But a simple down parka will stop 410 Buck Shot. The advantage of 410 Buck Shot is that it might not penetrate sheetrock walls and hurt someone on the other side.
The 45 Long Colt, 44 Magnum and other "potent" handgun rounds have all taken bears up to and including Griz. But these were in hunting situations where shot placement was everything and the shooter had plenty of time. Larry Kelly of Magnaport fame unloaded a Freedom Arms 454 Casull (one of the worlds most powerful handguns) into a charging Griz and it took a rifle shot to finally stop it.
Even the mighty 454 Casull, 460 and 500 S&W revolvers are extremely weak when compared to even a modest rifle like a 308.
If you know the velocity and the weight of the bullet you can use a simple formula to determine kinetic energy. As you will see, velocity is king, and handguns have very poor velocity due to barrel length and limited powder capacity.
See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_energy
Some common handgun energy levels:
9 mm Luger 350
.357 Sig 475
.357 Mag 550
.38 Special 310
10mm Auto 650
.40 S&W 425
.44 Mag 1,000
.45 GAP 400
.45 ACP 400
.45 Colt 370
.454 Casull 2,200
.460 SW 2,400
.50 AE 1,500
.500 SW 2,600
Rifle Energy:
270 Win 2702
7mmRemMag 3221
30-06 2913
308 2743
338 WinMag 3860
375 H&H Mag 4262 (considered minimum cartridge by law for most African hunts of dangerous game)
460 Weatherby 7504 ( most powerful shoulder fired modern rifle)
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R_Lefebvre
Expedition Leader
Uh huh. But thanks for the condescention.
Thank goodness. Thanks for bringing the tech. Here is another gun owner I can really respect. If you're going to argue that one must have a gun for protection, at least know the science behind it, and make sure you have the right gun. ie: I get charged by a bear, and stand my ground, there's a good chance is was just bluffing and will stop. If somebody else pulls out a little gun and shoots it, chances are it's still alive and now it's just really mad, and it will definitely press the attack.
As I mentioned earlier, this is similar to what the hunters I know have told me about bears. Their... constitution... is just much too high to be stopped by just anything. The 870 that my friend recommended me was based not on an ability to stop a bear, but was a TEOTWAWKI gun. Simple, reliable, servicable, common (for parts), uses common ammo. And also as Rbertalotto mentioned, light shot is safer to use in a house, because it is stopped by drywall and thus puts your family at less risk should you be shooting at things inside your house. The same characteristic that makes it useless on a bear.
SunTzuNephew
Explorer
I've seen people shot with everything from .177 caliber air gun pellets to (unfortunately) 20mm cannon shells. Note: If I see them it generally means they survived their initial wounds - otherwise they would have been pronounced at the scene and the coroner would get them.
There is nothing that is a 'sure stopper'. I had a patient once who was shot in the 'center of mass', his chest, just slightly lateral to the sternum with a 12 gauge Brenneke shotgun slug...it missed his heart and major vessels, totally destroyed a lung, and exited his back not hitting anything but ribs. He survived, minus a lung and ribs. The guy shot with a 20mm? Two 20mm holes, right through his belly. They sewed up the leaks and he's good as new.
President Regan, when he was hit with a ricochet from a .22LR, nearly died (it was a very, very close thing). Not because of 'hydrostatic shock' or kinetic energy or superior shot placement or magical bullet design: He nearly died because of hemorrhage from the bullet (which entered his armpit, where there was no vest stopping it) bouncing around and causing lots of leaks.
.22's have killed everything on earth that walks, crawls, slithers or flies, and most of everything that swims...eventually. I recall reading (many, many years ago) of a housewife in the Canadian woods who fought off a bear trying to break into the cabin, all day (and a box of .22's) long...the bear would wander off, lick it's wounds and return, until if finally bled out or died of boredom. I've also seen people shot in the head/skull/face with .22LR's and they walk in...and walk out. Unless the shot placement is quite precise into the eye and thence through the optic foramen into the brain, the bullet will very, very often bounce off the very hard bones and possibly be trapped under the scalp, exiting at a distant location (or not). Not a good caliber to bet on, with people OR bears.
Reports from the various war zones show that even a .50BMG hit center of mass wont stop someone immediately (just very quickly - the issue is, is it quickly enough?). There's a youtube video of a US Marine who was shot with an RPG grenade, which imbedded in him (diameter is 85mm, iirc). It was removed, and he returned to duty (and the surgeon who cut it out of him received a Silver Star, and deservedly so....).
So, what to use? When your life is in the balance and you've made the difficult decision to use deadly force, what should you use?
I don't know. A hit with a .22LR is better than a miss with a .45ACP or 12 gauge. I carry .45ACP pistols, and practice regularly with them to help avoid missing, should I ever need to use one. However, if I was planning on getting into a gunfight, my number-one choice would be to GO SOMEWHERE ELSE. Number-two would be a large caliber, magazine fed rifle, Number-three would be any other centerfire repeating rifle, and number-four would be a shotgun...
There are many myths about shotguns...one is that you don't have to aim. Another is that they don't penetrate walls.
Rather than make uninformed, idle speculation, someone did some testing. Keep in mind that two sheets of drywall make up a wall (one on your side, the other on the next room).
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
For aiming issues, check this out: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot20.htm
The Taurus Judge: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm
The FBI considers the minimum acceptable performance for a defensive round to be 11" penetration into standard ballistics gel. That equates to 7 or so inches in a clothed individual. The 2" penetration of the .410 slug? No, thanks. The shotshell might be OK for snakes, but not for people.
And birdshot? Well, if you're close enough, might as well just shoot the individual with a slug (and I've seen more than one shot cup/wad in peoples wounds), but at any distance the small pellets lose energy so fast they won't be effective. They do tend to not go through too much drywall, but at the expense of not being effective except at point blank ranges: If the bad guy is that close, you waited way too long to start shooting.
There is nothing that is a 'sure stopper'. I had a patient once who was shot in the 'center of mass', his chest, just slightly lateral to the sternum with a 12 gauge Brenneke shotgun slug...it missed his heart and major vessels, totally destroyed a lung, and exited his back not hitting anything but ribs. He survived, minus a lung and ribs. The guy shot with a 20mm? Two 20mm holes, right through his belly. They sewed up the leaks and he's good as new.
President Regan, when he was hit with a ricochet from a .22LR, nearly died (it was a very, very close thing). Not because of 'hydrostatic shock' or kinetic energy or superior shot placement or magical bullet design: He nearly died because of hemorrhage from the bullet (which entered his armpit, where there was no vest stopping it) bouncing around and causing lots of leaks.
.22's have killed everything on earth that walks, crawls, slithers or flies, and most of everything that swims...eventually. I recall reading (many, many years ago) of a housewife in the Canadian woods who fought off a bear trying to break into the cabin, all day (and a box of .22's) long...the bear would wander off, lick it's wounds and return, until if finally bled out or died of boredom. I've also seen people shot in the head/skull/face with .22LR's and they walk in...and walk out. Unless the shot placement is quite precise into the eye and thence through the optic foramen into the brain, the bullet will very, very often bounce off the very hard bones and possibly be trapped under the scalp, exiting at a distant location (or not). Not a good caliber to bet on, with people OR bears.
Reports from the various war zones show that even a .50BMG hit center of mass wont stop someone immediately (just very quickly - the issue is, is it quickly enough?). There's a youtube video of a US Marine who was shot with an RPG grenade, which imbedded in him (diameter is 85mm, iirc). It was removed, and he returned to duty (and the surgeon who cut it out of him received a Silver Star, and deservedly so....).
So, what to use? When your life is in the balance and you've made the difficult decision to use deadly force, what should you use?
I don't know. A hit with a .22LR is better than a miss with a .45ACP or 12 gauge. I carry .45ACP pistols, and practice regularly with them to help avoid missing, should I ever need to use one. However, if I was planning on getting into a gunfight, my number-one choice would be to GO SOMEWHERE ELSE. Number-two would be a large caliber, magazine fed rifle, Number-three would be any other centerfire repeating rifle, and number-four would be a shotgun...
There are many myths about shotguns...one is that you don't have to aim. Another is that they don't penetrate walls.
Rather than make uninformed, idle speculation, someone did some testing. Keep in mind that two sheets of drywall make up a wall (one on your side, the other on the next room).
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
For aiming issues, check this out: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot20.htm
The Taurus Judge: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm
The FBI considers the minimum acceptable performance for a defensive round to be 11" penetration into standard ballistics gel. That equates to 7 or so inches in a clothed individual. The 2" penetration of the .410 slug? No, thanks. The shotshell might be OK for snakes, but not for people.
And birdshot? Well, if you're close enough, might as well just shoot the individual with a slug (and I've seen more than one shot cup/wad in peoples wounds), but at any distance the small pellets lose energy so fast they won't be effective. They do tend to not go through too much drywall, but at the expense of not being effective except at point blank ranges: If the bad guy is that close, you waited way too long to start shooting.
john101477
Photographer in the Wild
Hey Roy B, why don't ya read the rest of the wiki instead of seeing a list and copy paste.
Wiki:
It must be stressed that muzzle energy is dependent upon the factors previously listed and that even velocity is highly variable depending upon the length of the barrel a projectile is fired from. While the above list mentions some averages, there is wide variation in commercial ammunition. A 180 grain bullet fired from .357 magnum handgun can achieve a muzzle energy of 580 foot-pounds. A 110 grain bullet fired from the same gun might only achieve 400 foot-pounds of muzzle energy, depending upon the manufacture of the cartridge. Some .45 Colt ammunition can produce 1,200 foot-pounds of muzzle energy, far in excess of the average listed above.
FYI- I use a .45 acp load that fires at 928 fps. Load, bullet shape, barrel length and other factors play a part in trajectory and knock down power. it is not even close to black and white. Am I gonna use my .45ACP for bear - Hell No. The .45ACP is basically built as a person stopper in close proximity. the judge also falls into this category. When it comes to bear, I have to say bigger is better. While a .45 can kill a charging bear, the likely hood of it stopping before it gets to you is slim.
Wiki:
It must be stressed that muzzle energy is dependent upon the factors previously listed and that even velocity is highly variable depending upon the length of the barrel a projectile is fired from. While the above list mentions some averages, there is wide variation in commercial ammunition. A 180 grain bullet fired from .357 magnum handgun can achieve a muzzle energy of 580 foot-pounds. A 110 grain bullet fired from the same gun might only achieve 400 foot-pounds of muzzle energy, depending upon the manufacture of the cartridge. Some .45 Colt ammunition can produce 1,200 foot-pounds of muzzle energy, far in excess of the average listed above.
FYI- I use a .45 acp load that fires at 928 fps. Load, bullet shape, barrel length and other factors play a part in trajectory and knock down power. it is not even close to black and white. Am I gonna use my .45ACP for bear - Hell No. The .45ACP is basically built as a person stopper in close proximity. the judge also falls into this category. When it comes to bear, I have to say bigger is better. While a .45 can kill a charging bear, the likely hood of it stopping before it gets to you is slim.
Rbertalotto
Explorer
over 65,000 commercially available consumer cartridges currently.............I couldn't list them all. I figured for a discussion such as this, averages would be fine and clearly demonstrated the point.
If you would like to debate ballistics, I can suggest some great forums. Or you can take a look at my web page www.rvbprecision.com......
Thanks,...........
If you would like to debate ballistics, I can suggest some great forums. Or you can take a look at my web page www.rvbprecision.com......
Thanks,...........
john101477
Photographer in the Wild
Suntzu - thats a pretty neat website thanks for sharing.
john101477
Photographer in the Wild
Those averages seem a little low across the board based on every commercial ammo i have ever used. Remington or Winchester
Rbertalotto
Explorer
And the numbers you see on commercial ammo are never inflated.......
I've done lots of ballistic tests across chronographs and some claims are accurate, some, "not so much"....Most of the manufacturer specs are done with "test barrels". No cylinder gap bleeding off pressure as a revolver does and super tight chambers for rimless ammo.
My finding are not too far off from what we are reading here.......on average.
I've done lots of ballistic tests across chronographs and some claims are accurate, some, "not so much"....Most of the manufacturer specs are done with "test barrels". No cylinder gap bleeding off pressure as a revolver does and super tight chambers for rimless ammo.
My finding are not too far off from what we are reading here.......on average.
john101477
Photographer in the Wild
And the numbers you see on commercial ammo are never inflated.......
I've done lots of ballistic tests across chronographs and some claims are accurate, some, "not so much"....Most of the manufacturer specs are done with "test barrels". No cylinder gap bleeding off pressure as a revolver does and super tight chambers for rimless ammo.
My finding are not too far off from what we are reading here.......on average.
I am sure they are inflated to some degree. What are your answers to claims of most commercial 9mm ammo having a higher fps that most 45acp? actually the 357, 9 mm, and 380 all have higher fps ratings than the 45acp or gap. 22lr has a 1080 fps (40 gr) vs 22wmr at 1900 (40 gr
test barrels are used for ballistics purposed. In most cases a 5 in barrel at 100ft. the standard .45acp FMJ 230 gr has a 830fps rating where as a 165gr JHP has a 1060fps pretty substantial differences here.
It almost appears that the info you gave was in m/s vs my fps so I think we both may be right lol.
460 Weatherby 7504 ( most powerful shoulder fired modern rifle)
Holy crap batman. better give me a Limb Saver and hearing protection if the 300 ultra mag is any indication
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Rbertalotto
Explorer
Agreed!
Yup, that 460 Weatherby is a handful..........But only sold with a very effective muzzle brake, so, not too bad......
Yup, that 460 Weatherby is a handful..........But only sold with a very effective muzzle brake, so, not too bad......
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