Do you feel the need to have a weapon when camping

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AYIAPhoto

Adventurer
Honestly I feel a good dog is by far the best "weapon" anyone could have in the woods.
A trained dog is not a weapon, a poorly trained dog is a dangerous weapon. As mentioned earlier I do live not far from some seedy areas where there are plenty of people who would gladly use a dog as a weapon, The difference being that those same people have no way of controlling said dog when it decides it's not done. That is most of the reason you hear about the family "pet' turning on one of the children. The breed is quickly blamed but the truth is it is always lack of training both on the dog and the owners behalf.
(pretty much why I am contemplating canceling my lifetime membership to the NRA even after paying all that money. I am an advocate of the responsible gun owner. I am not pro gun. Traveling into the back country with a tool that you are not properly trained and practiced with adds an additional degree of danger for everyone around you. Protecting this type of ignorant gun ownership is bad for everyone... As mentioned many times above, American children are paying the cost of this ignorance with their blood. Right here, right now, at least one per day if I'm not mistaken.
Would you protect a persons ability to purchase drain cleaner while not being "trained" to use and store it properly?
I don't know that much about guns. I do know my buddie's Glock had no absolute safeties. He showed me all the features such that it could never fire unless the trigger was actually pulled, but if you pulled the trigger, it always fired. I was really surprised by that. The ease of a possible accident cause by kids messing around is scary, even if the gun is on you.

I don't doubt it. I don't have a pool. My son takes swimming lessons.
If the gun is on you, it should be in a proper holster. In that scenario, the trigger is unreachable and you should quickly notice your pre-pubescent child trying to remove it from your holster. I say pre-pubescent because any older children trying should receive a firm slap to the face or more likely the parents face for not teaching their kid to keep their hands to themselves.

And the drowning thing doesn't care if it is your pool or one at a gym...
I don't object to responsible individuals having weapons and I am totally comfortable around those who respect them, but I fully admit to being somewhat skittish around the Rambo/John Wayne types who would put more faith in their weapons as a means of defense then they have in their own cognitive capacities to facilitate an outcome without violence.
I have full faith in my cognitive abilities, it is blind faith that people are generally good and honest or that a wild animal is more interested in my cooler which I lack. As to putting faith in my weapons, I have not much of a choice. Between a barely mobile knee and several fused discs in my back from a motorcycle accident I'm dang sure not putting faith in any other part of my body to save me.
For some I believe fear has a lot to do with the decision to carry a weapon or not.
I'll give you that, I fear becoming bear and wolf scat the same as I fear prison rape. Slim chances on either count but that is why I carry and also why I obey the law.
Am I to assume your travels will only take you as far as your "arms" will reach? What if you want to travel outside the US?
I have yet to find a need to travel outside the U.S. I have yet to see all of this country, starting on a new one now would be a bit premature.
I don't need a gun to feel safe in Canada. If I was in a soft sided camper in big bear or cat country I'd likely have a rifle relatively handy...
That is mostly inline with the OPs question. Also why I carry when I am someplace unfamiliar and situational awareness means less due to unfamiliarity with possible bad circumstances.
That's great and all, but will that hold up in a court of law when I have to explain to the jury why I just shot and killed 2 mutants who have (or had) small primitive brains with diminished "Cognitive capacities"?
I certainly have more faith in twelve people too stupid to get out of jury duty deciding my fate than 6 of my drunk cousins not dropping my coffin on the way to the hearse.
Dave I'm speaking of those who have a shoot first ask questions later type of mentality. People who lack process of thought, yet hold weapons, quite frankly make me nervous and I'd rather not be around them.
"Shoot first ask questions later" Is more rare among gun owners than your chances of breaking your leg in the wilderness and starving to death. That attitude is much more prevalent among criminal elements and they are one of the prime reasons I carry. Those elements are the ones with pot farms and methlabs hidden off in the woods.
For the places I go most often, I'm not sure many crack heads would be willing to follow, but hey, if a crack head wants to follow me on foot or in a canoe for days on end into the wilderness to do me harm, slap me silly and call me snookered but it's a chance I'm willing to take.
With my bad knee and back my 3yo niece could easily follow me into the woods, I aint outrunning anyone. Maybe 3 years ago while camping on private property near a ski resort in VT two fratboy mountainbikers started harassing my then GF. Hobbling around my truck I certainly didn't phase them. Excact phrase used was "What are you gonna do?". Perception changed when my hand was placed on my sidearm.
As others have said, this discussion is almost silly for an "Expedition Overlanding" audience as it's only relative within the US, and travel as much as you might within the states, that's hardly an "expedition."
So spending a year or more traveling through 2263962240(yes that's 2.26 BILLION)acres of the U.S. with the posibility of meeting over 300 million people ISN'T an expedition?
This is the problem. Why does this discussion INVARIABLY lead gun owners into thinking somebody wants to take their guns away from them? That is NOT the point of this thread.
Because the arguments and statistics put forward by yourself are often the battle cry of those that would wish to do so. I am not saying that is your motive, but it is far too common for people to (again not you) pretend to be just looking for "some common sense middle ground". That quickly causes those of us who do carry to become somewhat defensive. It is always the "common sense" argument that erodes all things. Common sense to some is to stop ATVs from entering areas because they tear up soil. If you stop the ATVs, well all those trucks with mud terrains must be just as bad or worse, and on it goes.
 
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tommym

Observer
I keep a picture of my Ex-Wife naked with me...scares off all intruders, evil doers, and I'll bet it works with bears!!!
Pics for purchase for only $4.99 :yikes:
 

UK4X4

Expedition Leader
A large dog is no better than a small alert dog for your defense


Looking at this from a global point I don't agree.

Only North america, africa and russia has wild animals left big enough to eat people, everywhere else they have been aready eaten by the human inhabitants.

Anywhere in the 3rd world there are only two types of dog - lap dogs and guard dogs.....any dog big enough to be the latter is given a wide berth.

To the point of people crossing the road rather than walk by you.

Camped out on a beach, not even the beach sellers come anywhere near you
when you have a dog.

Police stops -dog head out window and you usually get waved by, even on the US mex border, the drug dog flipped at diesel after we were pulled over for inspection, they just changed their minds and we were let through.

Middle east - no way is any local , indian or Pakistani is going anywhere near me my family or the house they are all scared of dogs

Its not a weapon as such, its just a visual deterent-warning system.

I know my dog will attack if I'm attacked, my wife has the scar:Wow1: our arguments these days are calmer....her being latino and all

Sorry to hear about your dog, if he had'nt been there -it could have been your neice.....the dog although only seconds gave you warning and time
 

Hilldweller

SE Expedition Society
Living less than 15 minutes from NYC(which in my younger dumber years was fun to sneak off to), Newark, and other such areas I agree whole heartedly.
I'm from Ridgefield ----- I always felt safer in the woods looking at bearsign than taking a bus to Central Park.
My brother is still in Park Ridge; you should go camping with him.
 

mwigant

Observer
I think your perspective changes greatly between being a single young man and a not so young husband and father. When I was young, I felt I could out-fight a few and out-run or out-think the rest. Also, I was the only person at risk. I can no longer fight or run my way out of a situation and it is my job to protect my family. I do not rely on statistical probability for our safety. The group average DOES NOT APPLY to your situation. Therefore, I often choose to carry.

Armed or not, be very wary of rationalizing how people will react in a situation. As an example, when I was in college, a young man and his GF came out of a party to find their car being burglerized. With plenty of fraternity brothers just yards away, he assumed the thieves would leave when confronted. Instead, the stereo thieves became kidnappers, rapists, and murderers. While we all try to characterize the people we've had "encounters" with, the truth is you DO NOT know who you are dealing with or what they are capable of doing. How many stories do you need to see where the relatives and friends claim a person isn't "capable of murder" only to see evidence prove otherwise.

Mike
 

Expedition Key

Adventurer
Thanks for all the responses everyone. I appreciate all the good points from both sides.

The reasons of why to carry, for me:

1. it is another tool and while I may not ever need it, if I did me and my family's life would depend on having it on hand really resonates with me,

2. as do the reasons not to carry what if my daughter ever got ahold of it.... would I ever pull out the gun in a situation and escalate it beyond my armed capacity....The general hassle of one more thing to always think about.

I'm still on the fence, I've gone to a couple of gun stores, I wish I could shoot the gun I want to buy, I can rent similar guns but not exactly what I'm looking for. Also, I can't rent a gun at the range by myself!! You have to either have a gun with you or have a friend with you. They told me that suicidal people used to come into the range, rent a gun, and shoot themselves!!!, now that they have implemented this rule, there have been no more suicides in there range. Pretty shocking especially as the rental guy is pointing to where the different people killed themselves. BTW finding a shooting partner in Marin is about as probable as finding a PETA buddy at a rodeo.

Anyway, on another note, I'm investigating what "tool" might best suit my needs. If it's a gun, it will be a Beretta PX4 Storm 9mm, or a Beretta84 FS .380

A trained K9 would be a good choice but a lot of responsability

A good survival tactical knife, will be added to my gear at a minimum

A pepperball (like Dog the Bounty hunter uses) gun would be my first choice. They definitely have the cool factor for me, I used to love paintball guns so I'm familier with this type of gun. They are non lethal but will put just about anyone down. I don't know how they would work with wild animals, but they are not a worry for me. BUT.................in CA, I can't buy the Pepperball Gun!!!, This seems crazy, I can buy an AR15, but I cant buy a pepperball gun!! BTW, I've had pepperspray blow back in my face by the wind so spray type cans or out for me.

Anyway, I can't believe how many posts there are, thanks again for everyones input, and for holding your tongue (fingers) as best you could, I was thinking the thread would be pulled after it started to get a little heated
but most everyone seems to have stayed respectful of others views despite the strong emotions that come up around ones own personal views.
:pROFSheriffHL:

Kye
 

BIGdaddy

Expedition Leader
For those not wishing to carry or to complement what you carry http://www.kimberamerica.com/products/less-lethal/ has some interesting options. They also have some nice 1911s :ar15: I love mine.

those are quality alternatives. I guess that stuff is propelled by an air charge, and hits pretty hard...its gel type capsium(sp) product, so even if you hit em on their lapel, they're still gonna get a significant "whiff".

you get two chances with each load, too, I think.

I really like the x90(i think thats the name) tazer that looks like those kimper products. Price tag of like $800 bucks is fairly prohibitive, though...
 

91runner

Observer
Yes, and all illegal in Canada, I believe. I can't buy pepper spray unless it's labelled "Bear Spray". :rolleyes:
I also did not know that. I was trying to find an alternative that would be less restrictive to take with you then a gun, and our friends who dislike/aren't coomfortable with guns might like.
:coffeedrink:
 

Fireman78

Expedition Leader
A large dog is no better than a small alert dog for your defense


Looking at this from a global point I don't agree.

Only North america, africa and russia has wild animals left big enough to eat people, everywhere else they have been aready eaten by the human inhabitants.

So you are saying that Australia doesn't have 18 foot long crocs anymore? Did they go extinct while I was on my last camping trip? Same thing for 30 foot long pythons in Central and South America? Did I miss something? What about tigers & snow leapords in Asia, India? Man I musta been gone a long time! Also- if one HAD a choice between a large or small dog for a warning system, why would someone chose a small dog? At least a large do can put up a fight? Maybe I'm just an old fasioned, commen sence guy, I don't know.
 
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