Earthroamer: new tire/wheel/suspension

[Metcalf]

The Turtle expedition tried something very similar to this about 10 years ago and had a lot of problems with the front axle uni-bearings. I still don't think they have found a great solution....

This is one of the reasons I have said...

Its better to have a light Unimog than a heavy full-size truck.

Its FAR too easy to push vehicles beyond what they are capable of. I'm a pretty devote off-roader. I love my big tires, lockers, etc.....but I would think twice about stretching the capabilities of an 'expedition' style vehicle. Breaking down 10 miles from the trail head is one thing....breaking down 1000 miles from anywhere is another.

 

[Sleeping Dog]

Value and Earthroamer

A while ago I came to the conclusion that any product that is produced in extremely low production numbers will have a high cost and if you try to justify that cost you simply won't.

The folks at Earthroamer (and Unicat for that matter) are conceiving and executing well thought out and constructed vehicles. Many semi custom manufacturers and this can include boat builders etc., determine what it is they want to include in the product, figure that cost, determine man hours required to manufacture, multiply that by a labor rate and add a profit margin that covers other costs and gives some return on investment.

If you like the result and you have the money fine, if not, well most of us have put together, in our mind anyway, an alternative that provides approximate performance and a lower cost, perhaps substantially lower. If your satisfied, great, but there are a lot folks with significant disposable income (though perhaps fewer than a couple of years ago) who will pony up something special.

Jim

 

[kjp1969]

Much like the Ferrari argument, one can purchase a Z06 and get the job done pretty equivalently. It does become a cost/benefit/excess dilemma at some point especially when it priced like a Ferrari, but all the components aren't Ferrari quality to match the add-ons. It is an excellent machine, but I don't know that ER has reached the refinement and prestige as a Ferrari quite yet, but hope they do...
.

Fairly off topic: Having driven a Z06 and F430 back to back, I can tell you that they are far from the same thing. There is no question whatsoever where the extra hunna thou went. Likewise, I'm sure that the ER people are building an excellent machine- R&D and small production equal little amortization of their work, and resulting high prices. There are plenty of cheaper alternatives available, of that there is no question. But are they the same quality? Or similar? Or even in the same species? Probably not.

 

[explore this]

Fairly off topic: Having driven a Z06 and F430 back to back, I can tell you that they are far from the same thing. There is no question whatsoever where the extra hunna thou went. Likewise, I'm sure that the ER people are building an excellent machine- R&D and small production equal little amortization of their work, and resulting high prices. There are plenty of cheaper alternatives available, of that there is no question. But are they the same quality? Or similar? Or even in the same species? Probably not.

The extra hunna went right to bright smiling dealer's bottom line... Don't really want to go down that argument path as it could go many different directions with wins in both columns. Besides, it is a very bad comparison in my opinion, as the ER is nothing like a Ferrari, whose reputation is built on a history of success in F1 racing. ER is just out of the starting gate trying to build a reputation and built on another manufacturers platform. This goes right to the root of my question of who the target audience really is. Initially it was Bill S. wanted to fill a hole that a truck and truck camper couldn't get to, but now it seems more and more like it's filling the ultra luxo motorhome market that doesn't want to be seen in a motorhome (kinda like the minivan / SUV argument). (Don't get me wrong... In business you go where the market and $'s are and there is NOTHING wrong with that) I'm sure there are many owners pushing it's limits, but I would bet the vast majority aren't using them to their design and sitting in well established camp sites. It is a Ford truck with the back cut out and a very nice camper bolted on and several truck upgrades, such as winches, big wheels and tires (which don't fit the bolt pattern btw and have adapters). My point is that when you are paying $200-250k you would expect the refinements and components to match. If you are going to put massive Continentals on, then the weak front-end / steering needs to be beefed up, not just a lift and some aftermarket airbag shocks that can be installed at any 4x4 shop for 1/2 the price. As I've stated I hope there is more than can be seen in pics and their pricing sheet.

Certainly liability is an issue, as ER knows from a NHSTSA recall for cracks in the mounting brackets in the past. Liability is covered either by bigger more expensive risk coverage and/or overbuilding and overdesigning the product not to fail. All it takes is a camper falling off or a front axle coming off and killing a few people on the road to throw a small business model on it's head.

I do agree with the time argument and superb service I have heard ER gives. To both there is always a limit of what it is worth however.

As I have also said the ER is an awesome machine and you can see the effort and quality in many areas in the build. I think with a few refinements on the drivetrain and components it will be there. With some increase in volume hopefully the price will level out with some time.

Are the Turtle Expos problems documented anywhere?

One final thought provoking question is on the warranty. They state that Ford's stays intact. I find it impossible to believe that Ford would cover anything tied to the drivetrain with the current tire/wheel/adapter setup, let alone something like the Continentals. This was not the original Ford design and would logically void or make very very difficult in getting any drivetrain problem covered under their warranty. How are the folks at ER covering this? Is this a component of the price structure??

 

[kjp1969]

The extra hunna went right to bright smiling dealer's bottom line...

Well shucks, I've driven both and they're not even close to each other. The vette has way too much power for its chassis, and traction control doesn't keep it from trying to kill you. The run-flat tires they give it simply don't provide traction. The Ferrari is simply everything you ever hoped a sports car would ever be. But that's neither here nor there, and only hints at my real point:

As for the Earthroamer, I don't know any more than you do about it, and probably less. But they seem to have quality engineering, and that should be reflected in the cost. True, any old 4x4 shop can bolt together a tire and wheel package, but ER has to stand behind the package for its lifetime, and meet its own high quality standards. That is and should be much more expensive than the sum of the cost of the hard parts.

 

[JRhetts]

The most striking thing to me about this thread, and most of the others regarding the ER on this Forum, is that: whatever the initial topic, someone inevitably interjects a considerable dose of scorn and hostility clothed in "rational argument". From what I can tell, some folks just have a love-hate reaction to the ER: its reality and capabilities attract them strongly, and their inability to afford the price tag makes them resent it and the individuals who can (for whatever reason and/or purposes they do so - some guys buy a Rover, a TOYO, an ER, a Dodge Ram, or a Mog for show; others for genuine field use; no interesting or capable vehicle or any other "toy" is free from this range of motivations.)

Furthermore, I find it especially interesting that often the people who have such hostile and scathing opinions have very limited or NO actual experience driving/using/living in an ER. Awfully strong opinions coming from seemingly envious outsiders looking in!!

As some of you will recognize, I owned a very early ER for 4 years and 60,000 miles of exploring from Northern Canada to the tip of Baja. [See http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14060.] We are awaiting our second ER, and have seriously considered the new suspension/wheel/tire option. From our deliberations I'd like to offer a couple of FACTS:
(1) To use the MTP81s, you have to lift the ER; ER's package puts air bags on all four corners. Their price is not unreasonable in light of both the quotes I got from some independent shops to do the same install, and also in terms of what at least one owner I know spent to add bags to his ER himself.

(2) The new 20" wheels DO NOT EXIST as an off-the-shelf item. ER has had to find and work with a manufacturer, and this rim will be tested and DOT certified before offering it on any ERs. This is a costly process on both sides, and ER is bearing the cost. So, to be reasonable in your guesstimates and judgments, you have to take this into account.

 

[explore this]

Waiting on pins and needles for detailed specs beyond a few airbags and custom wheels. I'm assuming (hoping) there is more... This is major stress on the Dana 60. Questioning is what makes a product ultimately better. Your experience is *very valuable*.

As one stated before you may look really cool, but that doesn't matter when you are broken down 1,000 miles from anywhere. I'd just like to know the engineering to prevent that. I'm all for paying the dough if it is right, otherwise you just have another tinker toy jacked up 4x4 that screams mercy 2 feet off the pavement with broken components.

Just saw the new Unicat thread. Allison 2000, beefy axles, pushing the size envelope, but Nice...

 

[Digger]

Waiting on pins and needles for detailed specs beyond a few airbags and custom wheels. I'm assuming (hoping) there is more... This is major stress on the Dana 60. Questioning is what makes a product ultimately better. Your experience is *very valuable*.

As one stated before you may look really cool, but that doesn't matter when you are broken down 1,000 miles from anywhere. I'd just like to know the engineering to prevent that. I'm all for paying the dough if it is right, otherwise you just have another tinker toy jacked up 4x4 that screams mercy 2 feet off the pavement with broken components.

Just saw the new Unicat thread. Allison 2000, beefy axles, pushing the size envelope, but Nice...

You have made some really good points about these upgrades. It's obivious from the pictures that the centerline of the tires has been moved outward from their stock position, especially in the rear (leaving the disc brakes exposed to potential damage). Now making a vehicle wider after adding taller tires via wheel backspacing is a good idea for stability, but it stresses the wheel bearings in a way they were not designed for. This is very true of the unit bearings on the front axle as the bearings tend to be spaced closer together then the old spindle style bearing assemblies. This has been a big enough problem on standard Super-Duty trucks with larger tires that the aftermarket is offering conversion kits to go back to the old style spindle assemblies. Granted the Dana 60 in the F450's and 550's is a Super 60, but these trucks are also rated for roughly twice the GVW.

Wheel bearings aside, I didn't see any mention of brake or steering upgrades. You can't put a significantly larger tire on a vehicle without upgrading the brakes and steering or de-rating the overall load capacities. As I recall, a fully loaded ER weighs in around 16,000lbs and the GVW of an F550 is around 18,000lbs. Axle gearing is another issue. The standard ER tire is already larger then a stock Ford tire with factory axle gearing. To go even larger would require the axles to be regeared otherwise you will see shorten transmission and engine life as they work hard to move the truck down the road.

I think it is easy for people to just accept that a company has done their homework before releasing a product, but that is not always true. Look at what Ford did with the Pinto.

 

[ujoint]

Ford upgraded the Dana 60 for the 08 model year. In the 99-07 models, the only difference was the Knuckles/Brakes. The 08 housing is different than the F250/350, larger & beefed up overall. It's a monster. Yes, it still has unit bearings, and ER can make the call to swap out for a Dynatrac free spin kit. I've seen extensive testing from ER in the past, so I assume they'll do the same with this upgrade. A custom made wheel, with internal bead lock, DOT approved, with specific offset & backspacing for the ER? I don't even want to know how much will be invested in that.... We cannot compare any manufactured wheel on the market to it.

 

[boblynch]

Glad to see such interest in this ER tire/wheel/suspension thread. Some of you may find the following threads useful as they cover some of the same issues.

Earthroamer Tires thread
http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12606

SRW Conversion thread
http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12380

Here is the link for the Dynatrac Free-Spin Hub Conversion Kit mentioned. It’s $1,895 for the kit.
https://store.dynatrac.com/merchant...duct_Code=FO60-3X1104-C&Category_Code=HUBKITS

Bob

 

[explore this]

More... "scornful, hostile, scathing, envious, peasantry laden, inexperienced" info to look at:

 

[Rod Juliani]

It's only money!

I own a 2008 EarthRoamer XV-LT, and while it is not an inexpensive vehicle to purchase, it does do everything that the manufacturer promises and does it very well! I have an appointment at EarthRoamer for the week starting July 21, 2008, to upgrade to the air suspension and the monster Continental tires and Hutchinson wheels with center bead lock, which I think will pay off in many situations and also look fantastic! Also; there are manual settings for ride height and a couple of side features are: (1) the vehicle can be lowered for easy entry; (2) the vehicle automatically goes to the preset ride height setting when you start the engine; and (3) all four corners of the EarthRoamer can be independently raised or lowered from inside the vehicle for easy in camp leveling.

 

[boblynch]

Rod welcome to the ExPo and thanks for the 1st post. It's nice to get first hand feedback from actual owners. Please post pics and first impressions of the upgrade once it's on the rig.

Bob

 

[haven]

Welcome to the group, Rod. It will be great to have your feedback about the differences between the 22.5 and 20 inch tire options. Are you the first customer for the retrofit of the Continental tires?

Chip Haven

 

[Robthebrit]

I don't have a problem with ER in concept, I have a problem with some of their designs and the options they provide - these wheels are the perfect example.

Are you really going to get into a situation with that type of truck where a bead lock is going to significantly help? Yes the locks and the split rim help in the sense that if you manage to rip one of those tires off the rim you are in a world of hurt, I can tell you from experience they do not mount easily and you can forget a ratchet strap. I'm the same weight as an ER and use the same tires and I have never needed bead locks.

In another sense the locks may be helpful because MPT81's don't air down very well - with an unloaded mog at about 9000-10000 pounds on 14.5s you can take all the air out and they still look inflated. If you drive off or apply any significant side load you'll break the bead or the wheel will spin inside the tire. When airing down you really can't use your eyes for an indication of how much air is left. I wonder if the bead locks are there to prevent end users from this sort of scenario. Would they be needed if ER had selected different tires?

One thing that I would be concerned with is the unsprung weight but I can only assume ER have done their homework. You are adding hundreds of pounds of unsprung weight and airbags are not going to help for the long term. If you compare the size of the parts on a normal mog (which takes these tires as standard) to the parts on an ford 450 or 550, the mog parts are massive and the fords have a higher gross weight and the mog has portals to reduce loading on the drive train.

Alloy wheels on tires that size also seems a silly choice - what other vehicle has those tires with alloys?. Those tires will take a beating but the wheels won't. On my last trip I slipped off a rock and it peeled the rim of the wheel back like it was made of plastic - there wasn't a mark on the tire. My rims are steel and I just whacked it back into shape and kept going. The expensive ER rims are not going to hold up any better and they will more than likely be worse. Why can't ER just use existing 20 inch steel rims and keep the price down? Why do they need to be over the top with features? If they are using a mounting bracket why not use existing wheels?

Ultimately, what is the purpose and what about the 60mph speed limit? If one of those burst at 60+ mph you can kiss goodbye to your Earthroamer and maybe your life - will ER stand behind you then?

If you want wheels that big use a truck that was made for them.

Rob