Flippac torsion bar

tacollie

Glamper
They have a clear reputation on customer service so I knew what to expect when I bought it. Another week down. Their response was different today. They said call back at 3 as opposed to next week. Unfortunately at 3 they said call back at 5 then they said call back in 20mins then there was no answer. I am not complaining, I just needed to share the humor in the situation! At this point it is just funny and I can't wait to have a working Flippac.


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tacoluv

Observer
These stories are all so Kafkaesque - read one of his books. It's all the same - call later, 8 weeks out for a bar, then's it's 4 to get your hopes up, talk with the Diane who will talk to the boss about giving you a break on the price to replace a part they never bothered to fix - that has a material fatigue problem. Oh thank you Diane for talking with me today - but still no answer!!

This is the same commentary in every story of Flippac.

I love mine and have been to Alaska and eastern Canada on major trips/expeditions and have raved about the utility and design but problems (rain fly & torsion bar) are not addressed by Flippac.

So now I have a a broken torsion bar after 4 years, left me to sleep under the stars on the beach last week on Padre Island seashore. Positive side was it was warm and saw shooting stars.

Please someone help
 

Camelfilter

Explorer
These stories are all so Kafkaesque - read one of his books. It's all the same - call later, 8 weeks out for a bar, then's it's 4 to get your hopes up, talk with the Diane who will talk to the boss about giving you a break on the price to replace a part they never bothered to fix - that has a material fatigue problem. Oh thank you Diane for talking with me today - but still no answer!!

This is the same commentary in every story of Flippac.

I love mine and have been to Alaska and eastern Canada on major trips/expeditions and have raved about the utility and design but problems (rain fly & torsion bar) are not addressed by Flippac.

So now I have a a broken torsion bar after 4 years, left me to sleep under the stars on the beach last week on Padre Island seashore. Positive side was it was warm and saw shooting stars.

Please someone help

Do the torsion bar delete. Remove the torsion bar, put some bolts in the hinge points, make some weight bearing support arms/bars.

I've started mine for when the bar breaks. Using great info others have posted: see this thread yonder
 

Dave Bennett

Adventurist
Do the torsion bar delete. Remove the torsion bar, put some bolts in the hinge points, make some weight bearing support arms/bars.

I've started mine for when the bar breaks. Using great info others have posted: see this thread yonder

This is in my future - the guys at BirdDawg Industries are aware of this need and I'm hoping that they come through with a torsion bar delete kit that will solve this one and for all. If enough folks contact them inquiring about a torsion bar delete kit they may get motivated to bring one to market faster. The prop rod replacement kit and branch deflector they make for the FlipPac is top notch - not listed on their site yet but again contact them for FlipPac upgrade parts as they are FlipPac enthusiasts themselves.

http://www.birddawgindustries.com/home.html
 
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LovinPSDs

Adventurer
So when is someone just going to make a monder version of a flip pac that everyone will actually want to buy?!?!?? Man I'd love to have one if the engineering issues were freakin sorted out!
 

Arclight

SAR guy
This is in my future - the guys at BirdDawg Industries are aware of this need and I'm hoping that they come through with a torsion bar delete kit that will solve this one and for all. If enough folks contact them inquiring about a torsion bar delete kit they may get motivated to bring one to market faster. The prop rod replacement kit and branch deflector they make for the FlipPac is top notch - not listed on their site yet but again contact them for FlipPac upgrade parts as they are FlipPac enthusiasts themselves.

http://www.birddawgindustries.com/home.html

Maybe I'm alone in this view, but I like the torsion bar setup. My wife can open and close the Flippac alone. If mine broke, I would rather just get an off-the-shelf torsion bar splined at a machine shop and replace the existing one with something slightly beefier. To me this is a major benefit of the Flippac design.

You can see some candidates here:

http://www.schroedersteering.com/OWbarsPage.html

I'm away from the truck right now, but I suspect a suitable replacement could be sourced with the spline count, diameter and length known. If there isn't an off-the-shelf part, I'm fairly certain I know where to get one made.

Arclight
 

Dave Bennett

Adventurist
Maybe I'm alone in this view, but I like the torsion bar setup. My wife can open and close the Flippac alone. If mine broke, I would rather just get an off-the-shelf torsion bar splined at a machine shop and replace the existing one with something slightly beefier. To me this is a major benefit of the Flippac design.

You can see some candidates here:

http://www.schroedersteering.com/OWbarsPage.html

I'm away from the truck right now, but I suspect a suitable replacement could be sourced with the spline count, diameter and length known. If there isn't an off-the-shelf part, I'm fairly certain I know where to get one made.

Arclight

Very interesting. Would love to hear what you find out - you're right over the 74 from me.

One thing to consider, and having spent a lot of time talking this piece with Mario at AT in regards to their torsion bar on the AT Habitat for the JK, is the weight of the lid/tent etc. The way I understand it is that the torsion bar is what actually holds the weight of the lid/bed/tent/occupants when deployed and the "prop rods" really only stabilize the lid and MAYBE take 10% of the load. The torsion bar transmits this load back to the hinges and then in turn to the base of the shell.

The right torsion bar will have to account for all those numbers - I'd love to see somebody - anybody - solve this issue :)

Schroeder has an 818 area code too... I love SoCal.
 
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Arclight

SAR guy
I would suggest contacting the guys at the link I sent. I'll ask my racing friends if they have anyone local to recommend as well. From their page, it sounds like they will also do custom torsion bars:

For information and pricing on all Schroeder products, please contact us at one of the following sources:

Phone 818-565-1133
FAX 818-565-1134
schroedersteering@yahoo.com

The main specs are:

Length
Spline count and diameter at the attachemnts
Diameter of the working bar
Solid or gun-drilled
Type and heat treat of material

We already know most of this information if we disassemble one, and the material is going to be steel within a limited range of choices. I would call and inquire about sending them a broken spring so they can create a part number for others to order.

Arclight
 

austintaco

Explorer
Definitely, the ease of opening and closing is an advantage I would miss. It's nice when we are going from point to point and I am going ahead first on my bike. I can leave from camp early on my bike and let my wife sleep in, and she can get up at her leisure, hang around camp, shower, etc... and then pack up and meet me at the next spot. Without the torsion bar, it would be very difficult for her.
 

LovinPSDs

Adventurer
Perhaps with the upgrades support poles and a slightly different torsion bar the stress put on the bat could be reduced with a bit more weight transferred to the supports. I don't know how a habitat works but is want a good percentage of thT weight transferred to my solid steel front bumper, rather than back through flip pac itself
 

dman93

Adventurer
The problems with the Flippac and torsion bar setup, as designed, are two-fold. First, the torsion bar is subject to very high stress as it rotates + or - 90 degrees from the neutral position. Compare this with a typical automotive front suspension torsion bar which maybe rotates 20 degrees or so. My rough calculations showed me that the stress in the Flippac bar when it's rotated to the open or closed positions is about 100,000 psi. Applying a nominal safety factor of 3 means you need a steel which is heat-treated to about 300,000 psi (300ksi). Not unobtanium by any means, but not a job for the village blacksmith (with all due respect to blacksmiths).

Second, all that load is fed back into the structure of the camper shell and lid. I am not quite sure how long the brackets that the t-bar is splined to, extend into the lid and the shell, but I'm pretty sure they're less than a foot long. That means there is over 1000 lbs force, maybe more, being reacted into the camper over a pretty small area. So if the t-bar doesn't break first, the shell will eventually fail as the fit loosens and/or corrosion weakens the structure. And there's plenty of evidence that this is a "when" not an "if". However, in my experience the torsion bar delete really does make it difficult to deploy the Flippac lid, so it's not really a universal solution.

What I think is needed is a combination of a stronger t-bar material, but a less stiff spring to reduce the stress in the spring, with the result being less assistance when opening the lid and less support (counter balancing) when it's fully open. Then, compensate for the reduced assistance with a longer crank handle (or better yet, a geared handle); and offset the reduced support in the open position with stronger support rods that are attached more securely to the lid, and to the vehicle (bumper brackets or sturdy cowl brackets). It would be good to add some kind of damping to slow the descent of the lid as it approaches horizontal - even friction would help. It's all feasible ... it just needs some real engineering. For example, since the t-bar rotates 180 degrees and is neutral at 90 degrees, why all the splines? There's no need to "degree" it in to preload the spring. A simple square end fitting into a square opening would be much cheaper and easier to grind to shape, especially if the bar is made from a stronger (harder) steel which is otherwise difficult to machine.

Anyway, just some thoughts ...

-dman93
 

dman93

Adventurer
Arclight, thanks for the Schroeder link. I'll dig up my broken bar and measure it up and get in touch with them. I had talked to a supplier of torsion bar steel in the Midwest earlier this year but they didn't have the right material.

-dman
 

tacollie

Glamper
What about doing the torsion bars similar to early VW's? Is it to many degrees of rotation for that to work? They are a stack of flat springs packed togather. They seem like they would be easier to produce but 180 degrees of rotating may be unreasonable. A t-bar delete would be an option if it could be opened and closed reasonably by one person.

Despite everything I still love my Flippac and can't wait to be sleeping in it again!


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austintaco

Explorer
Dman, that makes quite a bit of sense. My understanding from day one was that the support bars are not there for support but more for holding the lid down instead of rotating back. We don't need the torsion bar to hold that weight when we are already deploying the bars anyway. Your geared solution or even just a longer handle for leverage is simple but makes sense. Make the longer splined handle double as a breaker bar and now you have a multi tool.
Here's a link that pops up discussing the mechanics of the torsion bar on our flippacs:
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=326280
 

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