Ford Takes @ $20 BILLION ‘Write Down’ and Dumps the EV F-150 Lightning

[vintageracer]

Just goes to show that Mr. Toyoda is a Hell of Lot Smarter than Jim Farley or the previous head of Stellantis when it comes to trucks and EV's!

 

[2025 deleted member]

More nonsense and a failure of logic. Acknowledging that ICEs are doomed has little to do with our personal choices. Current EVs don't suit everyone but we all should support continued development. The time when you'll either be driving an EV or sitting on the porch may not be that far in the future. I'm in favor of EVs being as good as they can be when that time comes. I don't know why anyone would feel differently unless they secretly think ICEs have a viable future.

Well ICE does have a viable future- I’m 45- I don’t foresee them not being viable in my lifetime. I’m looking at used trucks currently - something I can keep 10 years or more and it will probably get 13-15 mpg. I wouldn’t spend that money if I didn’t think it was viable. It’s far more viable than an EV for me from a dollar and sense point of view…

 

[2025 deleted member]

I lost at least 10IQ points reading this thread. Y'all need to chill out.

We bought a used EV a couple months ago taking advantage of their bad resale value. We've got my truck for trips and her car which I use to commute to work most days (64 miles round trip). Saving a ton of money every month even with gas prices dropping. There's essentially 0 maintenance and its surprisingly fun to drive.

My next truck will be a diesel electric hybrid. Probably an Edison motors conversion. All electric drivetrains with a small diesel generator. IMO that's the best way to do it and I wish it would catch on.

Having 2 vehicles the EV makes great sense for a small commuter. The diesel hybrid- interesting. Is it going to be a modern diesel? Seems like a nightmare unless it’s deleted.

 

[cricketwagon]

Having 2 vehicles the EV makes great sense for a small commuter. The diesel hybrid- interesting. Is it going to be a modern diesel? Seems like a nightmare unless it’s deleted.

People don't seemingly understand engineering or math when they bring up how they'd love those hybrid solutions. Consider the following calculations for a reference...

F150 Lightning has the estimated efficiency of 443Wh/mi at highway speeds. Let's round it up for simplicity to 500Wh/mi and assume the speed of 60MPH. Rounding up and assuming those numbers isn't critical for the point that follows...

Those two numbers suggest that to travel 60 miles in 1 hour a boxy truck like F150 will require about 30kWh of energy. So if we have a diesel-electric solution where the drivetrain is fully electric, and the onboard battery is complemented with a generator, you need a 30kW generator to infinitely increase its endurance as permitted by fuel capacity and/or quick refueling stops. Anything less than 30kW and you will be forced to stop to charge on a long enough trip.

So before you had one problem with diesel (refueling stops) and one problem with BEV (charging stops), and now you have two problems. Then, the reference is based on F150 Lightning with a standard battery, which results in a relatively light truck. Adding a large enough diesel generator adds to the weight (reducing efficiency) AND takes away the cargo volume from the vehicle.

I hear somebody say "but you don't need a 30kW generator! a smaller one will extend the range far enough!" Well, how small ? A Kubota 11kW generator is over 600lb, and takes substantial bed space (https://norwall.com/products/Kubota-Diesel-Generator-GL-Series-GL11000).

Then we arrive at something that actually works (Toyota Prius of trucks) - a diesel engine that is mechanically coupled to the transmission and powers vehicle when the battery gives up... but now you have the increased complexity in addition to higher weight, and basically negates the benefits of the electric drivetrain beyond super local driving. Good luck.

 

[OutdoorAZ]

Having 2 vehicles the EV makes great sense for a small commuter. The diesel hybrid- interesting. Is it going to be a modern diesel? Seems like a nightmare unless it’s deleted.

Ideally it would be categorized and regulated as a generator. Same way diesel electric locomotives have been set up for decades.

Its a really good setup from an efficiency and maintenance perspective too. A small diesel running at an efficient and constant RPM will need a lot less maintenance than if it was powering a traditional drivetrain.

 

[crazysccrmd]

People don't seemingly understand engineering or math when they bring up how they'd love those hybrid solutions. Consider the following calculations for a reference...

F150 Lightning has the estimated efficiency of 443Wh/mi at highway speeds. Let's round it up for simplicity to 500Wh/mi and assume the speed of 60MPH. Rounding up and assuming those numbers isn't critical for the point that follows...

Those two numbers suggest that to travel 60 miles in 1 hour a boxy truck like F150 will require about 30kWh of energy. So if we have a diesel-electric solution where the drivetrain is fully electric, and the onboard battery is complemented with a generator, you need a 30kW generator to infinitely increase its endurance as permitted by fuel capacity and/or quick refueling stops. Anything less than 30kW and you will be forced to stop to charge on a long enough trip.

So before you had one problem with diesel (refueling stops) and one problem with BEV (charging stops), and now you have two problems. Then, the reference is based on F150 Lightning with a standard battery, which results in a relatively light truck. Adding a large enough diesel generator adds to the weight (reducing efficiency) AND takes away the cargo volume from the vehicle.

I hear somebody say "but you don't need a 30kW generator! a smaller one will extend the range far enough!" Well, how small ? A Kubota 11kW generator is over 600lb, and takes substantial bed space (https://norwall.com/products/Kubota-Diesel-Generator-GL-Series-GL11000).

Then we arrive at something that actually works (Toyota Prius of trucks) - a diesel engine that is mechanically coupled to the transmission and powers vehicle when the battery gives up... but now you have the increased complexity in addition to higher weight, and basically negates the benefits of the electric drivetrain beyond super local driving. Good luck.

I doubt the Ram and Scout EREVs have gone this far in development without solving your problem. The Ram is advertised as having a 130kw generator.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

Ok. Here we go again. Unfirtunatelt he Chevy Unplugged thread got CANNED yesterday even though there was no politics and only mild friction between mathematician /tacticians and those purporting to live in the real world today.

Too bad, too. There was a lot of good info in that thread, actually. But the powers that be chose to strike it down. Maybe the powers that be like Ford more than Chevy, I dunno.

But could we keep it genteel here so the thread can stay up for posterity and reference?

 

[OutdoorAZ]

People don't seemingly understand engineering or math when they bring up how they'd love those hybrid solutions. Consider the following calculations for a reference...

F150 Lightning has the estimated efficiency of 443Wh/mi at highway speeds. Let's round it up for simplicity to 500Wh/mi and assume the speed of 60MPH. Rounding up and assuming those numbers isn't critical for the point that follows...

Those two numbers suggest that to travel 60 miles in 1 hour a boxy truck like F150 will require about 30kWh of energy. So if we have a diesel-electric solution where the drivetrain is fully electric, and the onboard battery is complemented with a generator, you need a 30kW generator to infinitely increase its endurance as permitted by fuel capacity and/or quick refueling stops. Anything less than 30kW and you will be forced to stop to charge on a long enough trip.

So before you had one problem with diesel (refueling stops) and one problem with BEV (charging stops), and now you have two problems. Then, the reference is based on F150 Lightning with a standard battery, which results in a relatively light truck. Adding a large enough diesel generator adds to the weight (reducing efficiency) AND takes away the cargo volume from the vehicle.

I hear somebody say "but you don't need a 30kW generator! a smaller one will extend the range far enough!" Well, how small ? A Kubota 11kW generator is over 600lb, and takes substantial bed space (https://norwall.com/products/Kubota-Diesel-Generator-GL-Series-GL11000).

Then we arrive at something that actually works (Toyota Prius of trucks) - a diesel engine that is mechanically coupled to the transmission and powers vehicle when the battery gives up... but now you have the increased complexity in addition to higher weight, and basically negates the benefits of the electric drivetrain beyond super local driving. Good luck.

Why would you put the generator in the bed?

Take a look at how Edison is doing their conversion kits. Batteries under the bed, generator under the hood (duh). Control systems and other components split between engine bay and under the bed.

You can generate roughly 0.75kW per 1hp from a combustion engine. So to make 30kW you wouldn't need a gigantic Kubota box in the trucks bed. That would be a stupid form factor for this use.

 

[cricketwagon]

Why would you put the generator in the bed?

You don't have to, I was just providing a frame of reference. But that assumes there is a surplus of space under the hood, which it's not a fact there is considering high performance electric motors aren't super compact, and both the motors and the batteries require HVAC for optimal performance.

Take a look at how Edison is doing their conversion kits. Batteries under the bed, generator under the hood (duh). Control systems and other components split between engine bay and under the bed.

I wasn't impressed by Edison when they were making noise with their logging trucks, but I haven't seen their pickup conversions until you suggested I take a look. Those aren't impressive at first glance either (will watch their videos a bit later) - just looking at the drawings and the proportion of the components, those are small batteries they have powering rear driven axles while the engine is mechanically coupled to the front driven axle... effectively turning it into a FWD diesel truck when you're out of charge. It's not actually possible to put substantial batteries on an existing frame, which is why electric pickups have been slow to appear - entire frame redesign is required to find sufficient room for the batteries. In fact this problem isn't unique to the pickups - every retrofit EV has failed to achieve universal utility, examples would be Fiat 500e and VW Golf EV.

Also you said "doing their conversion kits" - they claim to be in the pre-production prototyping stage at the moment, so it's too early to be optimistic.

You can generate roughly 0.75kW per 1hp from a combustion engine. So to make 30kW you wouldn't need a gigantic Kubota box in the trucks bed. That would be a stupid form factor for this use.

You actually can't. We use 750W to 1HP conversion for various calculations, but you won't get 750W from one mechanical HP because you have various losses to account for. First, you have the generator efficiency which will vary depending on the type used. Let's say it's a permanent magnet type, offering say 90% efficiency. Second, you now have to rectify AC to DC, which with modern designs will land you somewhere in 90-95% territory. So let's be charitable and say you will get 640W.

Then I agree with you - a specialized unit will be more compact, but you still need an engine that will have at least 44HP and a 35kW generator... how much does that weigh, and what volume are we talking ?

Finally, have you ever seen a diesel electric locomotive idling for quite some time ? The reference value of 500Wh/mi I used earlier is for highway cruising in the best case scenario (no major load). The actual electric motors used on EVs start at ~200HP and can reach 900HP (combined across multiple motors), which you can peak at when accelerating, going uphill, pulling a load, etc. You need power to supply that, and if you're already near depletion in your batteries just 35kW supply won't do you much good unless you're willing to idle at the bottom of the hill.


Edit: It does look like I incorrectly deciphered the drawings, and indeed it's an engine and a generator in front with the additional electric motor(s). I will look a bit more into it.

 

[OutdoorAZ]

You don't have to, I was just providing a frame of reference. But that assumes there is a surplus of space under the hood, which it's not a fact there is considering high performance electric motors aren't super compact, and both the motors and the batteries require HVAC for optimal performance.



I wasn't impressed by Edison when they were making noise with their logging trucks, but I haven't seen their pickup conversions until you suggested I take a look. Those aren't impressive at first glance either (will watch their videos a bit later) - just looking at the drawings and the proportion of the components, those are small batteries they have powering rear driven axles while the engine is mechanically coupled to the front driven axle... effectively turning it into a FWD diesel truck when you're out of charge. It's not actually possible to put substantial batteries on an existing frame, which is why electric pickups have been slow to appear - entire frame redesign is required to find sufficient room for the batteries. In fact this problem isn't unique to the pickups - every retrofit EV has failed to achieve universal utility, examples would be Fiat 500e and VW Golf EV.

Also you said "doing their conversion kits" - they claim to be in the pre-production prototyping stage at the moment, so it's too early to be optimistic.




You actually can't. We use 750W to 1HP conversion for various calculations, but you won't get 750W from one mechanical HP because you have various losses to account for. First, you have the generator efficiency which will vary depending on the type used. Let's say it's a permanent magnet type, offering say 90% efficiency. Second, you now have to rectify AC to DC, which with modern designs will land you somewhere in 90-95% territory. So let's be charitable and say you will get 640W.

Then I agree with you - a specialized unit will be more compact, but you still need an engine that will have at least 44HP and a 35kW generator... how much does that weigh, and what volume are we talking ?

Finally, have you ever seen a diesel electric locomotive idling for quite some time ? The reference value of 500Wh/mi I used earlier is for highway cruising in the best case scenario (no major load). The actual electric motors used on EVs start at ~200HP and can reach 900HP (combined across multiple motors), which you can peak at when accelerating, going uphill, pulling a load, etc. You need power to supply that, and if you're already near depletion in your batteries just 35kW supply won't do you much good unless you're willing to idle at the bottom of the hill.


Edit: It does look like I incorrectly deciphered the drawings, and indeed it's an engine and a generator in front with the additional electric motor(s). I will look a bit more into it.

To be fair, I just took the 30kW number from your post. Let's say we take the rough conversion of 1hp = 640W. Then a relatively average sized diesel like the 3.0 from a Ram 1500 which makes 260hp from the factory. That would produce ~166kW. There are other, smaller and more powerful engines that could be used for this purpose. Tuned for more power and efficiency for this purpose as well.

Neither the logging trucks or conversion kits have a direct connection between the generator and the axle. The motors are in the axles, not mounted under the body or hood.

You're absolutely right that the kits are still being designed/tested. I'm hopeful that they work out. The performance of electric motors is excellent and with this type of design, they should be more robust and efficient than a standard hybrid.

 

[cricketwagon]

To be fair, I just took the 30kW number from your post. Let's say we take the rough conversion of 1hp = 640W. Then a relatively average sized diesel like the 3.0 from a Ram 1500 which makes 260hp from the factory. That would produce ~166kW. There are other, smaller and more powerful engines that could be used for this purpose. Tuned for more power and efficiency for this purpose as well.

Neither the logging trucks or conversion kits have a direct connection between the generator and the axle. The motors are in the axles, not mounted under the body or hood.

You're absolutely right that the kits are still being designed/tested. I'm hopeful that they work out. The performance of electric motors is excellent and with this type of design, they should be more robust and efficient than a standard hybrid.

See one of the issues I pointed out is that while something like 260hp / 166kW (sustained) power plant is more than enough for cruising (with surplus energy) even with cargo and/or trailer, it doesn't address some of the peak load issues. Normally we get away with these engines because we have multi-speed gear boxes - even if you don't have the power to climb a hill at 60MPH, you can downshift (or vehicle can) and climb it at 40 or 30MPH, whatever it takes. Electric power trains are typically built with a single speed transmission and don't let you multiply torque. Then also is that 260HP sustained, or peak ? I imagine most vehicle engines aren't designed to run at their peak power continuously... Anyway, I'm just skeptical, that's all

 

[2025 deleted member]

Ok. Here we go again. Unfirtunatelt he Chevy Unplugged thread got CANNED yesterday even though there was no politics and only mild friction between mathematician /tacticians and those purporting to live in the real world today.

Too bad, too. There was a lot of good info in that thread, actually. But the powers that be chose to strike it down. Maybe the powers that be like Ford more than Chevy, I dunno.

But could we keep it genteel here so the thread can stay up for posterity and reference?

The thread had ran out of juice…

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

I imagine most vehicle engines aren't designed to run at their peak power continuously... Anyway, I'm just skeptical, that's all

Nowhere near. Something like an Ag engine has a far more heavy duty duty cycle than an automotive/pickup engine and are built much heavier with better cooling and oiling.

I don't really know how it works out but multispeed transmissions also play to a combustion engine's powerband which an electric engine doesn't really have.

 

[crazysccrmd]

See one of the issues I pointed out is that while something like 260hp / 166kW (sustained) power plant is more than enough for cruising (with surplus energy) even with cargo and/or trailer, it doesn't address some of the peak load issues. Normally we get away with these engines because we have multi-speed gear boxes - even if you don't have the power to climb a hill at 60MPH, you can downshift (or vehicle can) and climb it at 40 or 30MPH, whatever it takes. Electric power trains are typically built with a single speed transmission and don't let you multiply torque. Then also is that 260HP sustained, or peak ? I imagine most vehicle engines aren't designed to run at their peak power continuously... Anyway, I'm just skeptical, that's all

They’re probably designed to never allow the battery to drain to zero and only run off the direct power from the generator under normal operation. The generator will keep the battery above a certain percentage which allows it to handle those occasional large, short duration extreme draws like an uphill section.

Towing my travel trailer with my R1T in Colorado averaged just about 1kwh/mi at highway speeds. Figure on half the efficiency when uphill (2kwh/mi) and in theory the 130kw generator in a Ram REV would still allow for the truck to tow uphill at highway speeds relying solely on the generator output without depleting the battery.

 

[plh]

Yeah, my old 2018 Outlander PHEV is rated at 70kW at the generator.