Full size trucks on jeep trails advice

[Happy Joe]

If anything, the jeep guys should be thanking the fullsize guys for trimming the trail back a hair.

Without traffic, the trail gets overgrown. It ain't much fun when the soft top on your jeep gets shredded by thorns.

Sorry!... you pushed a button!
I feel that I must disagree with this; in my experience obese vehicles and unthinking/caring people tend to build roads/"improve" trails, leading to overuse/abuse and eventually closure.
Based on more than 30 years off road;
If the vehicle doesn't fit don't ruin the trail for others by cutting trees/brush, stacking rocks etc.
If one or more tires spin the driver is usually doing it wrong; with a very few exceptions.
If its green/living don't cut it, kill it or run it over/flatten it..
If the vehicle can't do the trail without spinning the tires; upgrade the vehicle and/or the driver's skills.
If you can't/don't want to, accept the tolls of off road travel- Don't do it. (Have shredded more than one soft top and fixed more sheet metal than I care to think about (pinstripes aren't worth mentioning)... it is always due to driver error).

That said; irresponsible, ignorant, uncaring, often drunk/high people, mostly in poorly set up, occasionally expensive catalog/checkbook built, vehicles; of all sorts, who do not know (& don't care to learn) how to drive off road and those that think proper off road driving technique is what they see on videos, commercials and TV are responsible for many, if not most, trail closures.... just an opinion.

(End of mini rant)

Tires and air pressures matched to the trail are just the cheapest, most basic steps... mindful off roading involves much, Much more...

Enjoy!

 

[Buliwyf]

If you don't trim and maintain the trail, there won't be a trail. Maybe in Colorado trails are maintained by magic fairys, but elsewhere, they need care and maintenance, and most of all, USE.

It'll just be overgrown with trees and shrubs, hardly wide enough to walk through in just a few months. Which is exactly what has happened on the east coast. Now the tree humpers won't allow the trails re-opened or widenend even for little jeeps. So now fruity guys like you can walk the trails in sandals and smoke weed while laughing at the jeep guys reading then"CLOSED" sign.

Heaven forbid if someone trims any ugly thorn bushes or tree limbs back. It's a 4x4 trail, not a manatees head. I'm not advocating ruining the trail or wrecking it unnecessarily, that's a different topic. Take that soap box elsewhere. Use it, maintain it, or lose it. The NE has lost it.

 

[jeep-N-montero]

Sorry!... you pushed a button!
I feel that I must disagree with this; in my experience obese vehicles and unthinking/caring people tend to build roads/"improve" trails, leading to overuse/abuse and eventually closure.
Based on more than 30 years off road;
If the vehicle doesn't fit don't ruin the trail for others by cutting trees/brush, stacking rocks etc.
If one or more tires spin the driver is usually doing it wrong; with a very few exceptions.
If its green/living don't cut it, kill it or run it over/flatten it..
If the vehicle can't do the trail without spinning the tires; upgrade the vehicle and/or the driver's skills.
If you can't/don't want to, accept the tolls of off road travel- Don't do it. (Have shredded more than one soft top and fixed more sheet metal than I care to think about (pinstripes aren't worth mentioning)... it is always due to driver error).

That said; irresponsible, ignorant, uncaring, often drunk/high people, mostly in poorly set up, occasionally expensive catalog/checkbook built, vehicles; of all sorts, who do not know (& don't care to learn) how to drive off road and those that think proper off road driving technique is what they see on videos, commercials and TV are responsible for many, if not most, trail closures.... just an opinion.

(End of mini rant)

Tires and air pressures matched to the trail are just the cheapest, most basic steps... mindful off roading involves much, Much more...

Enjoy!

Having lived in both the east and now out west I know what Buliwyf is referring to, because they actually get a lot of rain back east stuff does grow over quickly, even on my parents' 11 acres in Maine they have private ATV trails they have to trim back every year. Out west stuff simply doesn't grow along the edges of most trails, it's called a desert for a reason and just doesn't require much trail maintenance.

 

[Dalko43]

Trails and 4x4 roads need use here in the east, otherwise nature will reclaim them very quickly.

If the vehicle can physically fit and drive down the road, then in my eyes its okay to drive down that road (assuming that the road is legally open to vehicle traffic). Any encroaching tree branches or vegetation that needs to be cut down or driven over is just the nature of the game when overlanding here in the east.

 

[deserteagle56]

If you don't trim and maintain the trail, there won't be a trail. Maybe in Colorado trails are maintained by magic fairys, but elsewhere, they need care and maintenance, and most of all, USE.

It'll just be overgrown with trees and shrubs, hardly wide enough to walk through in just a few months. Which is exactly what has happened on the east coast. Now the tree humpers won't allow the trails re-opened or widenend even for little jeeps. So now fruity guys like you can walk the trails in sandals and smoke weed while laughing at the jeep guys reading then"CLOSED" sign.

Heaven forbid if someone trims any ugly thorn bushes or tree limbs back. It's a 4x4 trail, not a manatees head. I'm not advocating ruining the trail or wrecking it unnecessarily, that's a different topic. Take that soap box elsewhere. Use it, maintain it, or lose it. The NE has lost it.

It's happening on the west coast also! I see it all the time and the biggest culprits are the Federal land management agencies. Back in the '70s if a Forest Service or BLM road was washed out or otherwise sustained damage a crew was immediately sent in and the road repaired. Once a year every road got touched up by a grader. Not sure when but that no longer happens. I live in the outback and I'm out there on these lands all the time and I cannot remember when the last time was I saw a road on BLM or Forest Service land being maintained.

And when, due to the lack of maintenance, the road becomes difficult or impossible to navigate, the signs go up:


Personally, I believe it is a silent conspiracy. The legal definition of a road is a travel lane that is periodically maintained by some governmental agency (be it Federal, state or county). After a certain length of time if there is no such maintenance then that travel lane is defined as a "way" and can be closed at will. No public notice, no hearings, etc., are necessary.

So this road that I've traveled for so many years is really not a road any longer. It is now a "way" and one of these days the "No motorized vehicles" sign will appear on it. The signs "Wilderness Study Area" are already up on the trails leading into the nearby canyons.

 

[Buliwyf]

Yep. I don't get it. When a road is too rough for use, why bother blocking it off. Bikes and Quads can still use it. They should just put a sign up that the road is not maintained by the city/county/park anymore. Use at your own risk.

 

[zoomad75]

Many of the more popular trails in Colorado are maintained by off road clubs. Pearl Pass in my example is maintained by a 4wd group out of Gunnison. Pearl is just barely wide enough for my K5 (or other fullsize), but I did get some pinstriping and my GoPro mounted to my driver's side mirror post got brushed by branches at the edge of the trail a number of times.

I agree that skill and equipment makes the biggest difference in how a truck handles the trail. My K5 is moderately equipped with 5.3 LS swap, 3/4 ton axles with 4.10's a Tru-trac up front. I've got a winch and fresh 35" Goodyear Duratracs. On Pearl I don't think I spun the engine over 1800 rpm on the entire climb up. I know I didn't spin a wheel at all. In one of the photos I posted, you can see the rest of the group I was with though. 3 Jeeps, of 3 different generations (YJ, TJ, JK) with different levels of equipment and skill. The Yellow TJ is a regular buddy (John) I wheel with and his ride is set, front and rear arb's, 33's, D44 out back and chromo shafts in the D35 up front. He's pretty skilled as a driver (he grew up around Leadville so it's kinda in his blood). The red YJ is the brother to the TJ, but hasn't been as active wheeling and wanted to start getting into it with his Jeep (he's owned it since high school in the 90's). The YJ is very basic, 4banger 5-speed with a 2.5 Black Diamond lift front and rear. It has fresh tread prior to our trip, but no lockers. The driver has done some wheeling but just little bits here and there when hunting so he understands the concept, but nothing quite like this. The JK is my Nephew. It's his first ride he bought on his own and he'd been interested in off roading since I had taken him out in mine as a kid. It's your typical JK Rubicon so it's got the lockers and low range, but stock height and tire size. He had Zero experience off road. Meaning, very capable rig out of the box but the driver was up for training.

Now before anybody freaks out over me taking a 20-something kid out on a difficult trail, keep this in mind the whole point of this trip was to teach. Both my nephew and the brother. Pearl was the last trail of a 3 day ride where we covered Tincup Pass on the first day and Reno Creek/Italian Divide the second day. The difficulty started out easy on Tincup (a stock half ton can do it no lift). Reno was little tougher and really prepped us for Pearl. John and I kept the noobs bewteen us and we had CB's in each ride. I spotted each through the tough spots and coached the noobs how to "see" the line and follow it.

In all, nobody required winching on the rough stuff. Even the YJ without lockers. The YJ had light weight on it's side and with the fresh rubber and a good line the driver was able to navigate the terrain well. The kid and the Rubi did excellent by using the equipment his ride had to his advantage. I sware I could put Granny in a Rubicon and they could wheel it. Point being you can't teach newcomers to the hobby without doing it. Showing them how to do it responsibly is so much better than telling them to go out and have fun where they might not know any better to go down a closed trail or off trail all together. Trail manners were discussed like who's got the right of way on a steep narrow trail (amazing how many I encounter that don't know or don't care and they usually got out of state plates).

Colorado does have many clubs that do maintain trails for the very reasons others have noted, overgrowth happens. The other problem we have is erosion. Our passes get a lot of snow and the snow has to melt. The runoff can cause the trail to wash out and rocks/bolders can fall into the trail's path. If not maintained, others that didn't know any better would drive around the new problem rather trying to get it off the trail. The local clubs tend to know the trails well and know when something is not right. They will install items that close off un-authorized off shoots of the main trail and add logs where the trail crosses a peat bog (pretty normal in the rockies) so you can stay out of the delicate Peat bog and not tear it up.

It comes down to teaching the newcomers how to do it the right way. Knowing your rides limitations and knowing it's ok to quit instead of tearing up the rig or the trail. That may be stopping and turning around or taking the cable. On this trip we set a strict rule if you have to hammer it or tear it up we would stop and require the strap or cable. We never had to do that on this trip.

One thing I think is getting lost in the discussion is we all have the same goal here. Nobody wants the trails closed. Those that are on this forum are genuinely responsible off-road and are not the problem. The problem people aren't on this forum or any others. It's not like you are required to get training to drive off road like you had to in order to get your driver's license. Anybody can go buy a Jeep, ZR2 Colorado, Raptor, Tacoma, Ram or other rig and hit the trails. They don't have to know what they are doing. They don't go buy maps or books to understand where the legal trails are. That type of person is a hard target to intercept and change. I think any of us have encountered people on the trails that just walked up and bought a rig or paid to have built that have no clue what they are doing. We try to point out what they are doing wrong in as nice a way as possible and some listen and others get pissed off.

Dealers, truck or SXS don't seem to instill any idea to potenial off roaders how to do it right. I work at a dealer and I can tell you it don't happen. No one in our sales dept goes off road. Outside of me and a couple of my techs and service advisor, nobody understands it. Some dealers do. As much as I bag on Jeep guys, the dealers seem to at least try. One I know of in Colorado Springs hosts day trips different times of the year to take customer's out on group runs. Only issue I saw when I encountered this group was the size. They had at least 25-30 Jeeps on one trail. That is a huge number in one spot as they overwhelmed the trail we were on.

 

[Happy Joe]

...YEP! many trails are maintained by clubs (Do your part!...Especially keep them nice by not tearing them up)
As far as when a trail is too rough to use; never seen it, rougher trails just require better prepped vehicles and that is when they start getting fun AND the whole purpose of trail ratings and reports;
https://traildamage.com/
https://www.4x4trailinfo.com/ShowRating.php?system=5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwQtZi2vPB4
Normally yearly or twice yearly maintenance is often enough to keep most moderate trails useable by moderately capable driver in a moderately capable vehicle, though.

I can see there is a disconnect and the logic of some could be used to argue that quad trails should be "upgraded" for use by Jeeps or full size vehicles. My opinion; Keep the trails as pristine for their established use as possible and take care of them (but don't make them easier there are too many boring secondary gravel roads already) ...If they are so unused that they disappear; so be it.. I would much rather see that than have the Forest Service close them due to abuse... or see them turned into highways. (personal opinion)

Enjoy!

 

[Lucky j]

Somewhere along this tread, someone mentioned that a jeep trail definition can be a mater of perspectives. I agree.

In my mind, a jeep trail is to narrow and to technical for a full size rig. I have been wheeling a jeep since 1995, have been a guide and participated in jeep jamboree, I am a guide with the club I wheel with and even if some think that a k5 is as wider as some jk, I'm sorry, but I do not agree. The blazer as wider body panel that a JK. But again, a k5 might have the same wheel base as a JKU, but the full size trucks are more than just de k5 and present much longer wheel base, and bad departure angle compare to any jks out there. Jeep trails are trails that will have trees, rocks and very technical passage. So technical, that a mutlipoint turn are not faisable, only getting over the rocks makes a difference. Think about gate keeper obstacle at the begining of offroad trail. This is a jeep trail. Anything esle is more of an off road trail. To me, a mountain pass is not a jeep trail.

As for overlanding or adevnture traveling, among my companion are 2 pick-up. One is a f-250 diesel double cab (yep, a full size rig), and on some dirt roads we travel, we will have to work washout sections and do heavy spotting so he will not leave is muffler behind or rob a rocker panel. The other has a tundra, and might also have issues with rear quarter panel and rear bumper. As i will simply follow with my jeep and off road trailer w/o needing any spoting what so ever. If I am the first, i will have to stop, get off and aske them if they are willing to go further when I would already be on the other side by my self.

As for riping soft top, it does not happen, I am always driving with top down, unless heavy rain is pourring.

So yep, al depends on the point of view.

 

[Durango]

It isn't so much what my 2500 Ram/ Flatbed Hawk can do as what I'm comfortable taking it through. One option would be to pull a jeep behind your PU on a tow bar. (We do this sometimes.)

However, there are LOTS of "moderate" trails that give just as good scenery and nature watching as an intense trail. (Maybe better because you don't spend much of your time winching and digging out!)

We just did the White Rim Trail and had a great time. (And hot showers, cold beer and ice cream all five days too!)

 

[workerdrone]

PNW sounds like my years of 4wheeling in New England. Couple of Samurais well used for the win in and among the trees

 

[Buliwyf]

I'm totally cool with "Jeep Trail" meaning trails specifically designed and maintained with 2 door Jeeps in mind.

And the rest are just off roads, park roads, fire roads, atv/bike roads, etc. etc.

 

[zoomad75]

Somewhere along this tread, someone mentioned that a jeep trail definition can be a mater of perspectives. I agree.

In my mind, a jeep trail is to narrow and to technical for a full size rig. I have been wheeling a jeep since 1995, have been a guide and participated in jeep jamboree, I am a guide with the club I wheel with and even if some think that a k5 is as wider as some jk, I'm sorry, but I do not agree. The blazer as wider body panel that a JK. But again, a k5 might have the same wheel base as a JKU, but the full size trucks are more than just de k5 and present much longer wheel base, and bad departure angle compare to any jks out there. Jeep trails are trails that will have trees, rocks and very technical passage. So technical, that a mutlipoint turn are not faisable, only getting over the rocks makes a difference. Think about gate keeper obstacle at the begining of offroad trail. This is a jeep trail. Anything esle is more of an off road trail. To me, a mountain pass is not a jeep trail.

As for overlanding or adevnture traveling, among my companion are 2 pick-up. One is a f-250 diesel double cab (yep, a full size rig), and on some dirt roads we travel, we will have to work washout sections and do heavy spotting so he will not leave is muffler behind or rob a rocker panel. The other has a tundra, and might also have issues with rear quarter panel and rear bumper. As i will simply follow with my jeep and off road trailer w/o needing any spoting what so ever. If I am the first, i will have to stop, get off and aske them if they are willing to go further when I would already be on the other side by my self.

As for riping soft top, it does not happen, I am always driving with top down, unless heavy rain is pourring.

So yep, al depends on the point of view.

So all the Jeep guys taking and putting full width 1-ton axles under thier rigs since D44's (or D30/35's) can't quite handle the abuse aren't stepping in the same path as any other full size right? Just because they have a narrower body means they can be the only ones out there huh? I'm sorry but I'm calling BS on that. Sure taking a full size crew cab long box on any tight trail is insanity. A certain amount of common sense applies here. I don't think you'll see a crew cab long box on Black Bear pass. Doing a little research goes a long way. For local trails to me, I use my Colorado Backroads and 4-wheel Drive Trails book. Reviewing online trip reports helps give more insight.

But I guess I'm not allowed to take my K5 out on trails anymore. Maybe I can buy some Jeep and trail rated badges so I can come out and ride with the only ones allowed.

 

[Happy Joe]

I say go ahead and try it; most "Jeep" trails have been driven by full sizes (although I have seen a few Flops by them, along with pin striping and fender dents.. just remember "Its a Jeep trail; NO Whining allowed!").
and please do not "improve" the trail because you made a bad decision...or have off road driving issues... that tree/rock in your door/fender is not the trail's fault and others have done the unimproved trail before you!

Knowledge can be expensive...you will be smarter after...

Here is a full size (definitely NOT the first one) driven with good attitude on a moderately difficult trail that classic, well set up, Jeeps have no problem on (width wise)...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mghMaZC2v8

Enjoy!

 

[Buliwyf]

Cool vid, thanks. I'm easier on trails than that, so I'm GTG. That's a bit narrow for me though, I'd roll out my DRZ400s for that one.