Fuso Canter versus Isuzu

[engineer]

OK, this is the endless circle that we have been travelling since everyone stepped out of Arkanas and 6X4 tourers in our industry. They BOTH have the pitfalls and associated BS that comes with ANYTHING japanese. P1ss poor steel quality, only made to last 5 years (lease life) having said that, I have 2 Canters that have over 350K on them and they are still making money. I have one 6X4 Toyota Landcruiser that has 780K and it is still making money. Your really going down a dead end street. At the end of the day, ADR 80 stuffed the 6X4 landcruiser for us, or we'd still keep ordering them. They handle better, have less body roll, better warranty than either Canter/Isuzu (and I will argue that until I'm blue in the face), And we can get any guide to drive it with absolute confidence and not feel like they are driving a truck. Some guides aren't the best drivers and feel intimidated by the little Fuso.
It is really a personal thing, choosing a motor car/truck. Give me anything and I will work out how to extract every ounce from it. Squeeze every dollar I can from it. I don't think you are going to see any difference until you get into Pinzgauers or Mogs that are made to last. Which ever you choose, you should get satisfaction from it as most people will use some emotion when making a purchase. For me it is business, I am a heartless prick when buying a bus. I don't care for this trinket, that gadget, all I care about is cost per Klm, lowest cost/klm wins and I go with it. I'd prefer to see Isuzus in my fleet, but that isn't the truck that we decided on because they wont honour warranty on an altered vehicle like Toyota or Fuso do.
Until they (mog & Pinz) enter the arguement, you are really comparing chalk to chalk. The issue we have with Euro trucks is no back up service and they have little niggles for the first 2 years, once you sort them out (a-la sprinter) then you have until normally 1million klms before economic viability goes out the window.
It all depends on your purpose, how you use it and how you look after it;
I have seen an OKA run out of economic viability in 9 months from driver abuse on Fraser Island. I have seen 6X4 landcruisers carrying massive kgs with 500K on the clock over 7 years old operating well within economic viability. Chalk is chalk people, don't get it mixed up with Cheese, and don't forget, chalk comes in lots of different colours, if you don't like the colour, change it to suit yourself.
Aw FFS, My rum has run out!!!!!

 

[Mickldo]

As most of you who know me by now know I work on these trucks too. I drive a Land Cruiser and am a mechanic so you know which one I prefer.

I don't want to get in on which one is better than the other but I'll just add a couple of things.

The NPS has the awesome ICE system but it also has a couple of spare DIN slots next to it as well for mounting UHFs etc.

+1 on the stronger chassis, better build quality, etc but I agree the DPD is a PITA.

 

[Lynn]

Just as the 'Ford v. Chevy' debates will rage on forever here in the US South...


I know little about little, so have nothing to contribute except thanks.

To all who have spent considerable time at the keyboard and shared a wealth of knowledge, and more than a little opinion, I thank you.

You have opened my eyes to the depth of consideration that must be made, far beyond what I was previously aware.

And done it in a considerate manner with no name calling .

Carry on, Gentlemen!

 

[DzlToy]

The Isuzu trucks in America cannot be in the same category as the Aussie ones. They have been in bed with General Motors for years and we all know how GM cars are built to last

Additionally GM is now bankrupt and closing operations left and right, as are suppliers like New Venture Gear and Dana/Spicer, both recently bankrupted and/or sold off in pieces.

On my limited experience researching NPR and FE/FG, the Mitsu wins hands down. Wouldnt take a GM product unless it was given to me and even then I would probably sell it... :victory:

 

[ozzyfishaman]

OK, this is the endless circle that we have been travelling since everyone stepped out of Arkansas and 6X4 tourers in our industry. They BOTH have the pitfalls and associated BS that comes with ANYTHING Japanese. P1ss poor steel quality, only made to last 5 years (lease life) having said that, I have 2 Canters that have over 350K on them and they are still making money. I have one 6X4 Toyota Land cruiser that has 780K and it is still making money. You’re really going down a dead end street. At the end of the day, ADR 80 stuffed the 6X4 land cruiser for us, or we'd still keep ordering them. They handle better, have less body roll, better warranty than either Canter/Isuzu (and I will argue that until I'm blue in the face), And we can get any guide to drive it with absolute confidence and not feel like they are driving a truck. Some guides aren't the best drivers and feel intimidated by the little Fuso.
It is really a personal thing, choosing a motor car/truck. Give me anything and I will work out how to extract every ounce from it. Squeeze every dollar I can from it. I don't think you are going to see any difference until you get into Pinzgauers or Mogs that are made to last. Whichever you choose, you should get satisfaction from it as most people will use some emotion when making a purchase. For me it is business, I am a heartless prick when buying a bus. I don't care for this trinket, that gadget, all I care about is cost per Klm, lowest cost/klm wins and I go with it. I'd prefer to see Isuzu’s in my fleet, but that isn't the truck that we decided on because they won’t honour warranty on an altered vehicle like Toyota or Fuso do.
Until they (mog & Pinz) enter the argument, you are really comparing chalk to chalk. The issue we have with Euro trucks is no back up service and they have little niggles for the first 2 years, once you sort them out (a-la sprinter) then you have until normally 1million klms before economic viability goes out the window.
It all depends on your purpose, how you use it and how you look after it;
I have seen an OKA run out of economic viability in 9 months from driver abuse on Fraser Island. I have seen 6X4 land cruisers carrying massive kgs with 500K on the clock over 7 years old operating well within economic viability. Chalk is chalk people, don't get it mixed up with Cheese, and don't forget, chalk comes in lots of different colours, if you don't like the colour, change it to suit yourself.
Aw FFS, My rum has run out!!!!!

Engineer you Hit it right on the Head, a good thing for us Aussie's is that we have available to us some very good off road vehicles for a variety of use's.
Who really cares which vehicle is better, if it suite's the purpose you purchased it for ,then you have made the right choice

 

[Bandicoot]

I agree that there is no one "universal best" vehicle, and certainly don't believe the Canter is a universally "better" vehicle than the Isuzu.
I was trying to make the point that I made a choice for the Canter over the Isuzu for various reasons and sharing why I made that choice with others on the forum. Presumably there are other people out there who will also need to make a choice (or are doing so) at some point.
That's what discussion forums are all about!
Both vehicles have strengths and weaknesses and any purchaser needs to understand these (as best they can) to make an informed choice. Otherwise, they are at risk of buying a vehicle that has great strengths, but not really the strengths that are most important to them. I've done this myself many times with other items, especially consumer items. You read the advertising blurb and think "what a great feature" and buy that make/model of gadget; but after using it a while you realise it's not a feature you use much and that some other feature it doesn't have would have been much more important to you. But it's too late then!
Hence I think a healthy debate is really good. It's not something good forums shy away from.
In fact, what really "kills off" a discussion forum is too much "group think". It's good to have the occassional "devil's advocate" or "naysayer"--someone who challengers the prevailing "orthodox" views.
Bandicoot

 

[whatcharterboat]

If you look at the specs the rear axle is rated at 6.6T! i think it must be out of an FSS, just shortened a bit.

Yer, Andrew, surely that'd be because of the smaller wheels and brakes too. Not sure of the shortening?

The main reason they are very undersold is because for an aftermarket setup they are difficult to setup (due to the extensive electronics involved). However, i believe that the first Holset VGT's were not electronic, but operated via springs and air pressure (somehow).
Anyhow, as far as aftermarket, most guys chasing this kind of torque curve opt for twin turbos, setup in 'compound', which seems to suit diesels very well. also much cooler...

Andrew , you've got way too much hard drive in your head for an 18year old!!!!!

Was actually talking to a good friend about this only last Sunday. He teaches auto electrics to the apprentices and in particular engine management and he was saying the power chip specialists are now starting to play around with VGT. Should have heard what he was saying about auto transmission re-programming. Sorry OT.

Oh yeah RE wheelbases;
we've had a 'shorty' canter, and now ive got a dualcab LWB. The SWB definetly has the advantage in maneuverability and tight offroad situations, but the LWB is much more stable on road, and on dirt (the SWB is a bit twitchy, will flick around if your not careful... but the LWB i have now will literally outrun my mates '80 series cruiser on a twisty dirt track...;P ).
As far as my opinion on best wheelbase, i think my next rig will be about 3150mm.

Yep. 3150 would be real good. I had a very scary time in my old Fuso SWB work truck on a wet road once. Mainly my fault. BTW I've driven an FG at 4300mmWB. Mate, that sucked. It was a dirt road only bus though. Done plenty of campers at 3900 but they start to get hung up on the centre tailshaft bearing a bit because of the ramp over angle (unless they're lifted).

 

[engineer]

When Andrew Says Compound, I'd say that is in series? yes...no....wait??
BTW, the shorty is awesome on the telegraph track onCape York Peninsula!!!
Check out the Avatar ^

 

[whatcharterboat]

Ozzyfishamen . You picked up on this.

There you go. I was always let down by LC's but never a Nissan.

[/QUOTE]

Wish i hadn't posted that. It was true but it was still a misleading statement. Another observation is that most mechanics I've met (including Mickldo) will buy Toyota's or Subaru's because they hate working on their own cars when they get home.

It might be a thicker chassis, but it looks like swiss cheese in this photo!

Hi Michael, Holes in the web aren't a problem. It's when you have to have holes or rivets in the flanges (top and bottom horizontal sections) that you need to be careful. So a tip>>> Don't EVER drill any. The NPS has rivetless flanges for that reason. The hole patterns on the new chassis are all set so they will take fuel tanks, battery cradles, fuel filters, liftpumps, etc. So when you want to fit a body or tray , you don't have to work around the existing hardware. Just slide it along and re bolt it. It makes it really easy anyway.

It 's very different to the last model which was virtually the same as the FG in shape with the S section behind the transfer case and tapering to 750mm at the rear. Only you know how the S section is riveted in on yours, well the old NPS's were one continuous section in 6mm right through. Made especially for the truck rather than modified from the NPR or in the Fuso's case the FE. It would have cost them alot more to develop more but it's very strong and probably less chance of corrosion being one piece .

The only downside I see from having straight rails happens when you want to modify the truck with aftermarket suspension. It's a long way between the rails and the diff on the new model. Another hurdle to overcome.

 

[whatcharterboat]

First of all, I admire the time and effort you put into posting on this forum, and also your honest, open and candid comments.

Hey, excellent thread on Motor homes Vs Caravans too. Well done.

Anyhow, I have no doubt you'll rugby tackle me over some of these comments as well!

So at the risk of starting a David and Goliath battle here, I’m going to put forward a contrary view to you on the Isuzu and Canter.

Yeah, probably deserved the 9’6” rugby playing Philistine tag after that so I’ll try to tone it down a notch. Apologies.

I might add, that it appears from your comments that the comparison is a “no contest” as you see it; the Isuzu is just the better vehicle all round; it wins hands down! I wonder if we’ll be changing the sub-forum name to “Isuzu heavy truck....” (only kidding)!!.

Now I know meaning is often lost in electronic media but that’s not quite what I said. I think my comment was about “one being better but it’s alot more complicated than that” and when I used the example of the tank I made the comment about “one being a hands down winner”. I still stand by this>> if you were strip both trucks down and put all the components side by side virtually all the NPS components would be a step above. Then I said that it doesn’t really matter which is better if you don’t intend to use either audio unit or tyres or tanks, or whatever. Do you need it to be stronger than it is already if it’s only going to be rated up to 4.5T. More importantly, do you need to pay for stuff you don’t need.

Every vehicle is a compromise of some sort; it just depends what you want to compromise on

Rick, I agree with you on this. I just don’t think you see that and I certainly understand your choice of one truck over another for plenty of reasons in your other threads. That was never my intention to appear to disagree with your choice but I do question the points you raised in the thread starter. This is a very touchy subject and why I backed off the original NPS v FG thread some months back.

Commercial buyers such as adventure travel companies or miners of the rural firies. In this case, the vehicle is likely to be driven by multiple drivers (who don’t own the vehicle or pay for the repairs on it), be fully loaded, be running much of the time to a fixed schedule (due to carrying tourists or being on other critical tasks), and generally would get a very hard life. In addition, commercial tour companies don’t literally “go bush”; they stay on beaches or on tracks, even if the tracks are rough.
Private buyers such as a husband and wife. In this case, the vehicle is likely to be driven by only one (or at most two) drivers (who do own the vehicle and pay for the repairs on it), be more lightly loaded (perhaps?), run up much fewer km on a more easy-going schedule and generally get much more TLC. The keen private expeditioners such as myself are much more likely to “go bush”, i.e. off track pushing through scrub just on a whim or by design. I like to smell the roses as I go bush!


I’m also reminded of what Tom Sheppard said in his excellent book that the key quality to look for in overland expeditioners is being “mechanically sympathetic” (or something like this). Any vehicle can be broken if it’s pushed hard enough!
So when I’m looking at this issue, I’m looking at it from the point of the private buyer.

Absolutely, A private buyer would never in a lifetime need to change shackle rubbers every 2 weeks or replace a diff and a clutch in the first 50,000k’s because driver doesn’t care but having to deal with commercial buyers certainly shows the weak links and how to help strengthen things for the private buyers at the end of the day.

So what are the things that are really important to me, as that private buyer?
• Not having a DP filter on the exhaust. This in itself rules out the Isuzu for me. The fact that the Isuzu could be in its regeneration cycle while I’m going through Spinifex or long grass and could easily kill the missus and me (as well as burn the countryside down) just rules it out. Further, my understanding is that it basically can’t go through any depth of water any more! This again rules it out as an off-road expedition vehicle.

Many new FG buyers have taken one look at the DPD‘s and that was the end of it. The guys that have them are learning to live with them. Much easier for a private buyer to do this than train some labourer on a mine site. You can avoid unwanted burns. You can do them manually when you pull up at the end of the day for example. No hassle. Just push the button and walk away (So they tell me). One of the problems they’ve found is not burning off if they don’t get hot enough on a work site for example and aren’t done manually. Sure, they could start a fire if you weren’t careful but it can be easily avoided with some fore thought .

As for fording depth, I know of some guys who’ve done deep water with DPD’s. Water isn’t the issue. The warranty is. Does anyone actually know the official fording for both. I’ve never been given a straight answer. I always thought it was only the wheel bearing height so if you suck water in cause your diffs were really hot when you hit the water I doubt your warranty would cover it. Sure the DPD would be a problem if your engine stopped in the water.

I really hope the NPS and FG will go down the path of DEF and loose the DPD for Euro 5.
.

 

[whatcharterboat]

• Ease of repair in the field. In this case, a cable operated transfer is definitely an asset over something electronic.

Negative, I know this is a common belief but if the new NPS fails (and as I said they've been well trialled on the FSS ) you don't need any electronics knowledge at all. Just re run the vac hose to engage "4wd" or "low" to get you going again. Takes all of 2 seconds to pull the hose off the solenoid valve, no clips even, put your finger over it to see if its sucking.

Nope, therefore it's an electrical fault and you probably don't have time to worry about it immediately anyway. Pull the hose off the vac supply T and push the first one back on instead.

Total time not counting the time to crawl under the truck >>> 6 seconds. I timed it and didn't need any parts or tools. Try and fix a broken cable with out a new cable and tools. Just because something is electronic does not mean it's a bad thing. I'd be happy to go bush without a transfer cable. Most of the time you can never pick if a cable will fail and you can only carry so many parts.

In all fairness, the new model FG84 has re run the cables down the left side and should have overcome the old problems of chaffing when they ran over the crossmembers and in behind the right hand shockabsorber. Mainly from plenty of corrugations. I doubt they'll give much trouble now unless they see alot of beach. Not sure I'd like to see all those NPS solenoid valves without protection on the beach either.

I'm relying on what others have reported that the Canter rear LSD is a particularly good one, but if you are saying there's no difference, then I have no basis to argue the toss on that one.

Regarding the audio system in the Isuzu, I like the Canter as it has 3 DIN slots of which two are available for audio and a UHF. This is more important to me as I've tried the small screens for GPS and they are (to me) almost useless. I need an A4 sized touchscreen tablet laptop!

I know it wasn't one of your original points. I only brought it up as an example of something that was better but may not be needed. BTW the Isuzu has 3 unused DIN slots available next to the double DIN screen.

Regarding the sway bar, in my opinion few (if any) people are going to bother to get out and uncouple a sway bar to go over some obstacles and then recouple it when they're back on the track, then uncouple again for the next obstacle, etc. Who goes out and puts their FWHs in and out every time they need to go into and out of 4WD if doing this dozens of times a day—they just leave them in for the day. If the sway bar can be left detached (safely) over various road/track conditions then why have it? The fact is that Fuso has designed the Canter to not need a sway bar so the problem is “engineered away”.

It makes it better to drive on the road. It doesn't need it but it's is better for it. If you took it off both trucks would be much the same. You could leave it off especially with only a light camper body on the back. FG's that we have fitted sway bars to have been really great on road and for general offroad touring. If your not sure about “disconnects” they are normally what a lot of the more serious Patrols and Cruisers use so they can get away with long travel soft suspension on the road with a sway bar. When you engage your hubs you pull the clips. You don't do it every time you see a bump. I've been trying to come up with a hydraulic one for these trucks for ages. Just open a valve in the cab between 2 small rams that replace the front sway bar brackets.

In terms of the narrower chassis, I accept what you are saying that the Isuzu is better for mounting large or wide bodies on the back due to better stability. However, what if you actually don't want to mount a large/wide body on the back? The EC body is quite low in height (with roof down, i.e. in travelling mode) and no wider than the cabin so the wider rails aren't an advantage as the narrower rails definitely will provide more flex, which means better off-road capability?

No. Actually from the amount of flex we are actually seeing, it's hard to pick and there are way to many variables. Having the shocks as wide as possible is a plus. The chassis rails were 750mm to fit the old dual rear wheels.

I could be wrong on the lower COG, but perhaps this is one reason the Canter has avoided the need for the “wider rails for stability” or the “front sway bar”, i.e. by keeping the COG lower.

Maybe it wasn't in the budget.

I didn't realise the Isuzu could be set up to fit into a 20 ft container; if it can then I stand corrected on this one. Does that include bullbar and spare wheels?

Yes.

The longer WB also comes at a price. The turning circle on the Isuzu is 13.6 m which is very much bigger than the Canter at 11.4 m. I can easily fit my Canter-based motorhome in ANY carpark (providing it has the height clearance) and regularly do, and then get out of it!

The SWB turning circle is a winner in a carpark.

I

n general, I accept that the Isuzu gets “value” from its extra 200 kg by having larger/stronger components. However, is this adding value for me? Not if it means going over the 4500 kg, especially since my understanding (having read fairly widely on this) is that private expeditioners have generally been very happy with the reliability of the Canters? I guess we could (at the extreme) all go to Sherman tanks!

Ditto.

Finally, regarding the engine torque, I've very surprised at what you say. I have looked at the published curves and unless I've stuffed up, the Canter is better on both power and torque over virtually the engine RPM range (see attachments). On a torque or power to payload ratio at 4500 kg GVM, the Canter would be much better!

Thanks for the superimposed version. I couldn't make it happen. I know what the figures say and I know what we saw under controlled conditions at the dragstrip. My comment about looking at the area under the curve was obviously uncalled for. Apology. I made the assumption that the torque dropped away more than it did after 1600 based on the actual acceleration curves we recorded. Don't have an answer for it. I see the NPS was slighty more horsepower up high in the revs.....Dunno, I'm stumped. We used 2 different FG's and 1 NPS exactly the same weight (+/-10kg). Either one had much more power than it was supposed to or 2 of them were down. I really don't have an answer. It was very noticeable as I said at full GVM and others I've driven since still give me this impression but they weren't driven under the same controlled conditions.

 

[Bajaroad]

Thanks

John,
Like you said, those of us in the States don’t have to worry about this debate –since we have no choice.

But as to the quality of this forum, I’ll I can say is those of us in the States with 4x4 Fusos couldn’t be more indebted to you for generously sharing all your valuable knowledge about our trucks, and all but your closest secrets on your amazing campers. Same goes for the other Aussie builders and opperators on this forum. Thanks.

 

[FusoFG]

I’ve been trying to come up with a hydraulic one for these trucks for ages. Just open a valve in the cab between 2 small rams instead of the front sway bar brackets.



.

Sorry for the OT post, but the newest Jeep Wrangler Rubicons in the US have an electronic remote sway bar disconnect. Don't know it works, but there might be an idea in there you can use.

 

[gait]

As for fording depth, I know of some guys who’ve done deep water with DPD’s. Water isn’t the issue. The warranty is. Does anyone actually know the official fording for both. I’ve never been given a straight answer. I always thought it was only the wheel bearing height so if you suck water in cause your diffs were really hot when you hit the water I doubt your warranty would cover it. Sure the DPD would be a problem if your engine stopped in the water.

from page 7-8 of Owner's Handbook that came with FG649

Crossing a river
Even a 4WD vehicle is not fully water-resistant. Do not drive in water for more than several minutes and limit driving in water to the minimum. If it is absolutely necessary to drive in water, select the "4WD-LOW" setting and drive as described below.

• Choose a path where the water is no deeper than 50cm, and drive slowly at a speed lower than 5km/h to avoid making waves.
• ..........snip

And in bold under Caution
Never drive in water deeper than 50cm; otherwise water may enter the rear axle or other components.

I remembered it as when I first read it I mistakenly took it for 2 inches - durrrr! I've extended all breathers.

 

[whatcharterboat]

Sorry for the OT post, but the newest Jeep Wrangler Rubicons in the US have an electronic remote sway bar disconnect. Don't know it works, but there might be an idea in there you can use.

Hi Tom. Our early '90s model nissan patrols had electric disconnects. They used to really help over on Fraser. Rainforest in sand. Tree roots exposed across all the tracks on the hills and you need some good articulation or spin your tyres in the soft steps created but on the beach you hit the sway bar switch to stop body roll when your driving fast in the deep sand ruts. Heaps of guys come unstuck and flip on a dead flat beach particulary the Eurobackpackers in the hire cars. Even have speed cameras over there now. I looked at the way they Nissan do it but believe hydrailic rams will be simpler. I'll have to stick my head under a Rubicon next time I talk my dog for a walk. Have a Jeep dealer next to a Ducati shop only a few hundred metres from my home. My wife doesn't like us going that way. Wonder why. Thanks for the tip.