i prefer diesel, but there are benefits of a gas engine, especially 2007+ with the DPF and DOC on newer vehicles. We recently had to price out a new DOC/DPF for a 2008 6.4L powerstroke, cost of close to 5K for all of the parts. Really hard to justify on a work truck with miles that is worth low teens at best.
gas vs diesel
- Thread starter punisher1130
- Start date
Zeiderman
Adventurer
Yes they do, because of the restrictions in the exhaust side, manufacturer will say no, but any old driver will tell you most definitely.
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Zeiderman
Adventurer
I work at a Mack dealership, and will 1000x this. The best part is we also have a DPF cleaner, no greater joy than telling a customer, there $500 clean turned into a $3000 replacement because it failed a flow test. Sarc.
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What's interesting is that here in America so many offroad and 4x4 enthusiasts will swear off diesels for their own reasons, while pretty much everywhere else outside of this country, the 4x4 and overlanding crowd wouldn't be caught dead without them.
I never hear any complaints from the Australian overlanders or South African safari guides about diesel engines being unreliable. In fact, I hear the exact opposite.
I think the main reason for that is that until recently, Americans have only had access to big/heavy truck diesels (cummins inline 6, Duramax V8, ect.) whereas the rest of the world market has had smaller, much more practical diesels from Toyota, Nissan, Land Rover that offer great fuel economy at a reasonable weight (still heavier than their gas counterparts).
The long term reliability of the new emissions systems for American diesels has yet to be proven (they only started showing up in the mid 2000's, so the technology is still young). But that aside, the newer, smaller diesels (Jeep/Ram 3.0V6, Cummins V8, duramax 4 cylinder) offer greater torque and much better mpg over comparable gas engines, at only a mild weight increase.
Obviously vehicular priorities will affect a buyer's decision. Someone looking to run a desert race or spin tires or jump through the sand dunes will appreciate a gas engine's character. Someone looking for long trekking movements through the back country and/or hauling cargo or trailers, a diesel makes sense.
I'm heavily considering trading in my 4runner for a used diesel. I love the platform (and Toyota's reliability), but the powerplant is lackluster and its mpg is fairly mediocre. I got 19mpg highway, on a long hunting trip, with maybe 300-400lbs of gear. Granted it was -10 F where I was, and the winds were somewhat strong, but still that absolutely sucks for a modern day V6, especially when modern gas and diesel V8's are getting comparable mpg if not better.
plainjaneFJC
Deplorable
I bet you love those maxxforce engines. Lol
Big government has caught up to the diesels. Gas engines were having the same problems when Uncle Sam slapped all the emissions on them in the late 70's and early 80's. The engines had problems, low horse power, a lot of extra maintenance. Thirty years later, with fuel injection the engines are efficient, and developing more power, and running a whole lot longer. Diesels are now on the radar, and government wants to do the same to them. First with the DPF filter, with all of its problems, and now the DPF. In a decade, I am sure that the current problems with diesels will have resolved.
The USA is just a tough market - small diesels with manual transmissions are just not popular. Big Diesels with bomb proof automatics rule. Small Diesels have some unique problems for the operator. I was on a trip out of the country, and the diesel mini-coach could not keep the cabin warm in 25 degree weather when parked. The engine pumped out good heat while the bus was in motion but idling, it could not heat the interior. This was a common experience with the small diesel engines that picked us up. Most Americans I know would not put up with this, even with heated seats. Occurs in the USA too, WV Passats are notorious for being cold in the winter.
For off road expedition travel - a diesel would be perfect. The increased range and torque are impressive. In the US this is really not an option.
The USA is just a tough market - small diesels with manual transmissions are just not popular. Big Diesels with bomb proof automatics rule. Small Diesels have some unique problems for the operator. I was on a trip out of the country, and the diesel mini-coach could not keep the cabin warm in 25 degree weather when parked. The engine pumped out good heat while the bus was in motion but idling, it could not heat the interior. This was a common experience with the small diesel engines that picked us up. Most Americans I know would not put up with this, even with heated seats. Occurs in the USA too, WV Passats are notorious for being cold in the winter.
For off road expedition travel - a diesel would be perfect. The increased range and torque are impressive. In the US this is really not an option.
boxcar1
boxcar1
Places like Africa do not have the fuel restrictions that we in the USA are forced to deal with. And quite honestly don't have the fuel choices we have. The rigs they are offered are also not the same as the rigs offered in the USA . NOT BY A LONG SHOT....... You are not comparing apples to apples here.
Most third world countries do not have the luxury of choice. It's diesel or keds.
Plus, you need a gas mask to breath in Mombasa . I've been there.
Others such as South Africa and Australia ( Due to there relaxed emission standards ) have had opportunities that we in the USA don't.
Manufacturers are not held to the same standards. Just try to import a brand new Toyota truck ( diesel or gas ) from any other country into the USA.....Have fun.
This is a mater of preference for the rest of us. Mostly driven by testosterone.
If you want to disregard what the diesel mechanics and the industry as a whole are stating as fact. So be it.
I just don't see the need for diesel until one reaches the F-450 or better hauling requirement.
If we could all run (what we consider) Off road fuel here in the USA my opinion might be different.....But I doubt it . I like clean air.
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punisher1130
Adventurer
Think that subject is a whole other animal.
Crowfly
New member
Reasonably good arguments pro and con in this age old debate have been made. So many variables make it nearly impossible to reach any definitive universal answer. Maybe IBM could ask Watson. If not, then whatever your unique and specific wants and needs are will best determine your choice(s). So that should be your starting point. You may find that the gear cost rules out the diesel option if buying new, or maybe the gear weight rules out the gasser ... it is endless ... and just because you bought something at one moment in time it does not mean it will be appropriate at another moment in the future due to circumstances, more likely than not, beyond your complete control. For example, you might find yourself married with rapidly growing pups in less than five years and suddenly that light weight popup and the gasser hauling what you might now believe to be your best reasons for living may not be the ideal expedition solution anymore. Stranger things have happened. My guess is, the deeper you go down the Expedition rabbit-hole the more you will realize that the choice between diesel and gas is going to be your easiest decision. Setting up the perfect Expedition vehicle is never done, and from what I've learned, if you ever actually achieve your perfect Expedition vehicle the Cosmos will promptly send in your general direction as many meteorites with your name on them as necessary to restore the balance.
For the binary-minded, yes I have very recently made the choice between diesel and gas. In short, I put my money where my mouth is, and my best guess is I should keep my mouth shut.
One thing I didn't notice mentioned for the gasser is that a high quality supercharger (e.g., TRD for Toyota) has a profound impact on performance and little additional reliability risk, albeit it costs as much as the diesel option on a new pickup truck. And for the diesel I didn't see mentioned that the aftermarket fuel filtration add-ons are inexpensive contamination insurance. As for problems associated with fleet operations I would just say, I control/lock access to ALL external pour nozzles on my personal vehicles and I control what goes in them. Also with regards to ULSD not all current diesel engines are equivalent when running in LSD markets. Many factors such as whether or not the on-board computer considers the diesel motor to be under 'load' or not, and so on ad nausea (which may be your chosen argument against diesel). Each should do their homework.
For the binary-minded, yes I have very recently made the choice between diesel and gas. In short, I put my money where my mouth is, and my best guess is I should keep my mouth shut.
One thing I didn't notice mentioned for the gasser is that a high quality supercharger (e.g., TRD for Toyota) has a profound impact on performance and little additional reliability risk, albeit it costs as much as the diesel option on a new pickup truck. And for the diesel I didn't see mentioned that the aftermarket fuel filtration add-ons are inexpensive contamination insurance. As for problems associated with fleet operations I would just say, I control/lock access to ALL external pour nozzles on my personal vehicles and I control what goes in them. Also with regards to ULSD not all current diesel engines are equivalent when running in LSD markets. Many factors such as whether or not the on-board computer considers the diesel motor to be under 'load' or not, and so on ad nausea (which may be your chosen argument against diesel). Each should do their homework.
calicamper
Expedition Leader
Good friend runs a fleet of boats no one fuels or waters them except a very select few people. ^ for exactly the same points you make. You know what went in the tank and which tank. Nothing like walking out to check on a newbie and see that they just put 800 gallons of water in your sealed bow compartment and your charter boat is looking half sunk. At least it wasnt the fuel tank!
Anything turbo gas or diesel is going to have lots of problems if it spends a big part of its life doing short around town trips. Turbo engines like getting up to temp so do the modern emissions systems. Lots of under temp trips lead to costly issues gumming up the works with these modern systems. But get them up to temp and run them and they do pretty good. Knowing the use pattern and getting the right engine type goes a long way in avoiding costly problems.
isaac-daiceman@hotmail.co
New member
Are you concerned at all about the diesel slugging up in the cooler temps you seem to experience. I live in Iowa and diesels here have issues during the colder months even with the additives and block heaters. I think a Diesel is a decent choice, but have always been concerned if I'm in the back country and it gets too cold I could have an issue.
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punisher1130
Adventurer
Not something I thought about since I am way down south, doesn't get cold enough for any harm here but I do know a couple tricks that could help with that, how well they would work I have no clue since I don't have a way to test them, only theories.
You're absolutely right in one regard: other countries have vastly different emissions standards when it comes to their vehicles (not just diesels). So places like Austrlia, South Africa, and elsewhere tend to have a huge consumer demand for diesel engines (for both commercial and private use) because they don't have to contend with complicated and costly emissions compliance.
In fact, that seems to be the major hindrance facing the diesel market in America: emissions compliance. Once the manufacturers figure out that can of worms, which they seem to be working through as we speak, I can envision a lot more truck owners and even commuters buying diesel engines due to their efficiency and longevity.
Are you implying that many people want to buy a diesel for the sake of image? Maybe, but that can be said for a lot of things and products.
What exactly has the diesel industry as a whole "stated" as fact. You've lost me here, though I'm guessing your response is going to consist of some highly subjective lecture.
Actually the Ram 1500 Ecodiesel seems to be making a very good case for diesels in full-sized pickup's...so far the reviews and owner feedback has been fairly positive, especially in regards to the mpg. And the Chevy/GMC 2.8L duramax may make a case for diesels in mid-sized pickup's...we'll see.
And yes, we all want clean air. And if you look at how US emission regulations have changed over the last few decades, the quality of air here in the US is drastically better than what it was in years past. The problem is that much of the rest of the world, especially developing nations, aren't enforcing similar standards, and with their still nascent economies and technological base, are still reliant on cheap fossil fuel sources for a variety of applications (not just cars).
I get what you are saying: some people here in America could make more of an effort to use cleaner energy sources, but that's germane to a lot of different things, not just what car you drive. Heck, you and I simply typing this discussion on our computers uses energy, which more than likely comes from fossil fuel sources (given the nature of the American power grid). There is always room for improvement, but by and large, American industry has made giant leaps in cleaning up; any further discussion of "cleaner air" here in the US becomes largely meaningless if we continue to ignore what the rest of the world is doing.
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ZMagic97
Explorer
Reading a little in between but mostly the first 2 pages, I'm a gasoline motor kind of guy for my needs. Reasons?
-Generally cheaper. Not so much the fuel, but the vehicle itself. At least here is the Phoenix area, diesel trucks of the same year and mileage are WAY more.
-Leaks. Never diesel motors are probably and exception to this, but I know most diesels vibrate more causing more leaks in minor areas. I like leak-free vehicles myself.
-Ownership costs. Not all people do their own work, and that's ok! But whenever I see a diesel getting ready for new plugs, I shudder and hold my wallet. Not cheap at all, even less so at a shop.
-Needs: I find, at least in my area, most people drive a diesel because it's cool and they say it'll last forever. I never see these same people hang onto a truck for a long time nor pull a trailer. If they do, my 1/2 tons can do it just as well.
-Generally cheaper. Not so much the fuel, but the vehicle itself. At least here is the Phoenix area, diesel trucks of the same year and mileage are WAY more.
-Leaks. Never diesel motors are probably and exception to this, but I know most diesels vibrate more causing more leaks in minor areas. I like leak-free vehicles myself.
-Ownership costs. Not all people do their own work, and that's ok! But whenever I see a diesel getting ready for new plugs, I shudder and hold my wallet. Not cheap at all, even less so at a shop.
-Needs: I find, at least in my area, most people drive a diesel because it's cool and they say it'll last forever. I never see these same people hang onto a truck for a long time nor pull a trailer. If they do, my 1/2 tons can do it just as well.