GOVE Global Overland Vehicle Economical build.

[heimbig]

Thanks Jack Rabbit. I read (well still working on it) the really long post linked above as well as http://www.jackdanmayer.com/rv_electrical_and_solar.htm which was referenced in the above blog.

It is somewhat depressing that a small amount of shade on a panel can result in huge drops in panel output. Likewise, equally depressing is people overcharge, over build, and under design. AND to get decent output anywhere on the planet except the tropics you'll need to point the panels. Not saying it isn't worth it as it definitely is IF you do not need a genset for A/C. See my cost calculations in the next post.

 

[heimbig]

Solar Sucks?

Here are my calculations to help me determine if solar makes financial sense. I'm assuming I'll need a generator to run even a small A/C unit as I'll be traveling in HOT climates a lot. So I did NOT include the cost of the genset as I'll need it regardless. I'm also not including the cost of batteries and charging system as also needed whether you use solar or not. I also didn't count maintenance on the panels or genset - this is a rough estimate.

If you don't need a generator (the output of solar will sustain you through the night or cloudy days) then solar payout is immediate - The cost of a 2000 Watt genset and 120 Watt solar panels is approximately the same. For sure buy solar if you can live on 60 daily watt hours. That amounts to about 4 amp days ie 4 amps draw day and night, which is enough for a compact fridge some LEDs, a fan, and occasional charges of notebook computer and cell phone.

The cost per watt hour is $0.000688 (yes .068 cents per watt hour) for the GASOLINE. There is a butt load of energy in a Gallon of petrol – it is amazing stuff.

(see below) I took published solar prices from 2 providers. For CamperA it would take 545 days (1.5 years) of solar use before you would save enough money over using that money and instead buying gas for your genset. Of course after that your energy would be ‘free' if you had solar panels. From provider CamperB it would take 1455 days (4 years) of solar use before you would save money over buying gas for your genset.

It seems clear to me: unless you are full-timing it you will never pay for your solar panels, it will be cheaper to stick with gasoline.

In the end I may still add solar just to help keep the neighborhood quiet, even though it makes little economic sense and even less ecologic sense (see my very first post in GOVE).


honda eu2000i (not counted in cost, because I'll need one anyway)
gal capacity = 1.1
$/gal = $4.00
rated output Watts = 1600
hrs duration @ tank capcty = 4
watt hours @ tank capcty = 6400
$/wh = $0.000688


CamperA CamperB
solar panel cost, installed
$450.00 $850.00
rated output (Watts)
120 85
duration (hours / day you can get sun)
10 10
watt hours/d
1200 850
WH / solar pnl unit (watt hrs of gasoline you could buy for the cost of a Solar system)
654,545 1,236,364
Days of solar use required to reach the amount of gasoline you could buy instead buying panels.
545 1455

Hope that is clear. I'll send or attach the spreadsheet if anyone cares.

 

[Jack Rabbit]

Awesome work

That is great how you had it all figured out.

I would certainly be taking a closer look at it like you have done if I were to go that route. Of course now I may just stick with a generator!!! HAHA! I won't be off the grid full time anytime soon that's for sure.

I suppose just by conserving the energy you do have by using better lighting and lower voltage consumers would ultimately save you fuel as well which could prolong that cost savings.

This is going to be a fantastic project with this kind of research and forethought. Thank you!

 

[mog]

Here are my calculations to help me determine if solar makes financial sense. . . <snip>

Very good points.

Also solar are seldom at 100% of their rated output due to weather and/or position related to the sun (both angle and direction).
In addition either you park your vehicle with it's mounted solar panels in the sun (heating it up and losing wind protection / privacy) or have a portable set-up that can be used/positioned independently from your vehicle. But at the cost of solar panels they might become too portable (stolen).

BTW- heimbig, a great project and interesting thread. I look forward to its progress.

 

[heimbig]

Here is a couple other ways to look at it.

If you can survive on 4 amp days and have just 2x150 amp hr batteries and you drive every 2 to 3 days, then you don't need any solar or genset system. Your truck will handle it just fine.

Another perspective, if you can survive on 4 amp days, and you have 3x150 amp hr batteries you could start your genset for 3 hours after 4 days camping, then spend another 4 days camping and start your truck and move on. That would be one genset run every 8 days.

 

[SChandler]

The thing about solar that seems to be ignored in the current discussion is that it is always working during the day. It may not be putting out its full rated output, but it will output something so long as there is light hitting it. The same can't be said for a generator. It's either on or off and when it's off, it is nothing but dead weight eating space. If you're planning on running a small AC unit, then a generator is a necessary "evil", but I think that solar offers some tangible benefits. If you make a quick lunch stop and just need to move some air through the camper, you could run a roof vent and the solar will take care of keeping the batteries topped off, no need to setup and fire up the generator. Or, assuming your electrical system will support the initial surge at start up of the AC unit, you could run the AC for a few minutes and the solar, while it won't keep up fully, will reduce the amount of drain on the batteries. I think that instead of looking at solar versus generator, the discussion should be "How does solar complement a generator?" There will be times where you won't want to run the generator, won't be able to run the generator (how do you charge the camper batteries if you run out of fuel for the generator?), and, realistically, how much do you plan to run the AC? No matter what climate you are in, the solar panels will help keep your batteries charged. Also, to the thought of a portable solar panel being "too portable" (i.e. getting stolen), those small generators like the Honda that is being discussed, are just as "too portable" as a portable solar panel (unless it is hard mounted to the truck).

These are just some of the thoughts I've had while day dreaming this scenario for my own GOVE build (someday).

 

[shachagra]

Solar Blows

I love the concept of containerizing the truck- having done the RoRo thing, it is the way to go if you can make it fit.
Actually solar doesn't blow, I am an advocate of solar on RVs, but the opposite of "Solar sucks" doesn't sound any better. I don't think anyone should invest in solar if you are in it for short term savings, or for savings at all. Your argument is a good one, if you are going to get a generator, why add $$$ and complexity with solar, unless it is to top while you are away for extended periods. I went big with solar because I didn't plan to get a generator. I wanted to park on the beach and chill, letting the sun tan my body, dry my clothes and freeze my beer.
We lived in our RV for over a year and now use it for vacations and weekends down by the river. I keep my reefer ice cold even when I am away for weeks. I loved having solar on our trip through Europe and Turkey, it would run an A/C unit (though we never had to use it)

Here's a roof shot of our home on a ferry crossing in Turkey. 2100W of solar.

I think there may be some misconceptions about solar, example, a solar panel is a great way to maintain all battery level. My panels put out 27V, stepped to charge to the optimal voltage depending on state of charge.
Solar is great if it suits your application.
It doesn't suck.

 

[LivelyZach]

If your primary considerations concerning going solar are ,cost vs payback ,and ecological impact ...solar probably won't work for you.I have a small solar setup at my fishing camp located on the Greenbrier River here in WVa.The local utility company wanted in excess of $4ooo to run a line in for me .Plus I'd have yet another bill to pay every month ,whether I used power at this location.For me its a matter of convienence .I can go to the camp anytime I want ,flick the lights on and know they will come on,put my beer in the fridge knowing it will stay cold ,and if I want to watch a movie or listen to some sounds ,power is available to do so.I have less than $1200 invested in the system including everything needed.Ecological impact locally ?..none.Cost vs payback? priceless.I'll never have a power bill for this location(est $18 pmth)..out of pocket savings.. $2800 over the cost of power poles ,cable ,meter box etc.Amount of time spendt thinking how much it costs me ?...None..lol.Sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do.:ylsmoke:

....Maybe I'll use the $28oo I saved to buy a fancy gas grill to fry my fresh trout on...:chef:

 

[heimbig]

solar blows / sucks?

shachagra you have the ideal setup - your entire roof is panels - no place to put something else up there to cast a shadow. In Europe you probably won't need a/c - very often - so solar works though I doubt you'll ever recover the cost those panels and I think you recognize that.

I'm curious, shachagra, what sort of daily output do you actually get from those panels?

As I've said, in the end it isn't JUST about cost recovery.

My roof will be 'a roof ', a platform for photography, occasional storage, and I'm still considering its use for silent energy production.

Bruce

 

[heimbig]

update - trying to empty my bank account :-(

Truck ordered, should arrive by end of year.
Flatbed ordered, builder said he will start before truck is delivered but wants the truck before he goes very far.
Camper should be getting built soon for January delivery - i'm still specifying internal componets/changes.

Ordering lots of stuff in the next week or so.

• dual to single wheel - 6 of them - ricksontruckwheels.com
• 2 winches 16.5 or 15K for the front and 12K for rear.
• winch/bumper/brush guard, I decided against a full bumper replacement. probably warn Trans4mer system maybe in stainless steel (double the price - but still about price of a full bumper replacement) Anyone have experience with the warn Trans4mer brush gaurd/winch mount?
• air lift kit
• compressor and tank and air plumbing
• I'm replacing most all of my cobbled together hand tools with new craftsman or SK - taking advantage of holiday sales.

Anybody want 6 new 'pull off' ford factory standard 19.5" Polished Forged-Aluminum 10 bolt wheels with 225/70Rx19.5G BSW All Season tires? They will be available by end of year - tires should be Continental HDR but you never know until actual delivery - about $500 each unit, prefer one buyer for all. Please contact me directly. Bruce

 

[heimbig]

Camper build has started in Denver. Thanks, Cari, the photos.

 

[shachagra]

I'm curious, shachagra, what sort of daily output do you actually get from those panels?

As I've said, in the end it isn't JUST about cost recovery.

Bruce

In full sun in the summer she puts out a steady 120 Amps @ 12V. Designing her for a specific time/location wasn't going to work so I put as many panels on the roof as I could. In the winter in England she would only get as little as 150 AH a day, not very much, but we heated with diesel. I think I recouped the cost for the panels during those weeks we spent on the beaches in Southern Turkey, but you're right, it isn't about the investment. If the apocalypse comes, I may not be able to move her far, but I can blast my stereo into the next century.

 

[heimbig]

Progress

Been a while since last update, I ordered a bunch of stuff and slowly being delivered.

I'll finally have the new truck on Friday, pictures to follow.

• dual to single wheel - 6 of them &#8211; http://www.ricksontruckwheels.com
  
  I worked with rickson to get the rear just right for my purpose (7' bed and containerizable) and a small inset on the rear wheel build did the job. Originally rear were tracking directly behind front but that made the rear too wide for bed, then realized, oops, the front is still over 7' wide, got the exact measurements from rickson on where the tire will be (which will be OK) BUT that WHEEL hub is where it is and that is OUTBOARD of the tire/wheel rim. This is not specified on Ford sites anywhere (but look at a picture it IS obvious) anyway, it will be close for the container, I may replace the front lugs since they are extra-long for hubcaps I presume. Front will track wider than rear, I could have had them build the front wheels to track BUT then the turning radius would have been impacted and it wouldn't help with the width problem. tires are almost one foot wide, hopefully front being a couple inches outside of rear won't be a problem
  
  
• winch/bumper/brush guard, I decided against a full bumper replacement. probably warn Trans4mer system maybe in stainless steel (double the price - but still about price of a full bumper replacement) Anyone have experience with the warn Trans4mer brush gaurd/winch mount?
  
  My wife hated the look of the Trans4mer &#8211; so I won't buy it. Instead trailready full coverage bumper was ordered and will ship next week. I liked the Trans4mer because factory bumper was left in place and Trans4mer could removed for a more 'normal' look but, hey, this thing will never look normal and (IMHO) the trailready are the coolest looking bumpers out there - and functional too.
  
  
• The trailready bumper will be built specifically for the square Rigid Industries LED Dually D2 &#8211; I'll have 4 of them (10,000 lumen - a lot of light, not many amps)
  
  
• 2 winches 16.5 or 15K for the front and 12K for rear.
  
  ordered 2 x SuperWinch-Talon 18.0 SR for lower cost, theoretically higher pull, and comes with synthetic line, should be delivered tomorrow, http://www.vikingoffroad.com/superwinch-talon-18-sr/ This winch is larger (wider) than Warn and may have to move/mount the solenoid outside of the bumper. Ordered with other stuff through http://www.truckaddons.com/ and got a good price.
  
  
• air lift kit - Air Lift 1000 in front and 5000 for rear, in my possession. Ordered through http://www.truckaddons.com/
  
  
• compressor Vaiair 480C 200psi Ordered through http://www.truckaddons.com/
  
  
• I'll order an air tank after I figure out where to mount it and how big &#8211; which I can do soon - yea!
  
  
• Phonix camper build well underway, basic structure, walls, openings, floor complete.

 

[heimbig]

12 and 120/230 volt systems

Below is the schematic for the 120/220 volt and 12 volt systems, not shown is Xantrex LinkPro Battery monitor or other monitor panels, and circuit breakers panels to be mounted in the camper. Firstly we expect to mostly be on truck alternator, or generator, or battery power &#8211; and much less frequently using 120/230v. to simultaneosly run all appliances (well really A/C and convection microwave all other 120v is low watt) we need about 2000 watt peak.

On the 120v 60 hz side I can plug in (North America) run all appliances and charge batteries at 60 amps.

With generator only I can (ah&#8230; should be able to) still run all appliances and, depending on load, charge the batteries OR pull power from the batteries if load is too high.

Overseas 220/50hz. The camper outlets will be 120v/60 hz ONLY so camper internal 120v wiring will not be connected to 220v shore power. BUT the system will still work because the battery charger will work with 220v/50hz and supply 12 volt 60 amps (700 Watts), which is not enough to run all appliances, but reserve battery can make up the difference. If we plug into 220v we'll have to watch our watts.

On the 12v side. Truck can supply 200 amp (2400 watt easily). However use of alternator as a charger is not preferred. So I've added CTEK D250S and Smartpass. The smartpass can put out 80 amps (960 watts) so not enough to run everything. The primary use for charging camper batteries from the truck is to use the smart charger while driving to completely, properly, charge my batteries. I can use the Bluesea &#8216;battery' selector switch and send the 12v truck power to &#8216;NOTHING' OR directly to the camper 12v and get 2400 watt, OR through the CTEK Smartpass and get 80 amp with smart charging. The dual 150 amp hour AGM batteries will take those 200 amps for a quick charge. When camping, if for some reason we want to use the truck as the source (and not use the generator because it is broke, out of gas, stolen) I have that option and have my choice of 200 amp or 80 amps from the truck

From what I understand the CTEK will drop the voltage on the input (alternator) side causing the alternator to send amps. At the same time it can increase the voltage on the output side (depending on what stage it is in) to better charge the batteries. (CTEK allows parallel wiring of multiple smartpass units so one could go above the 80 amp output.)

 

[heimbig]

Photos of new truck on my way home from The Dalles, Oregon - Plus some frame detail

At Biggs Junction Oregon looking across the Columbia river to Washington.

You can see at the duals the frame is 4"+ above the top of the tire, Standard F-550 the tires would be 1" above the frame. This is the result of a factory 2" lift and the most heavy duty suspension Ford offers. The Rickson tire/wheels the diameter is 3" taller so top of frame will be 2.5" above tires. There is about 5" of suspension travel so LOTS of room for flatbed.


With no weight in the back - she rides like a go-cart:


The Palouse hills (near my home)
You can see the front wheel width, at the lugs, (even if the hub covers were off) are as wide as the duals:


Factory frame reinforcement
- How to get a long truck? buy it that way IMHO. 11 feet behind the cab, 200" Wheelbase.
The frame reinforcement "curves" down under the cab.


Double frame goes well under the cab, to about the drivers seat.

A lot of unused space on both sides, I really need to put something here:


Double frame extends all the way to the shackles:
Ford won't let you order dual tanks in my configuration. That is ok because their second tank is only 28 gal. The DPF tank (between frame below) has been moved outside of the frame rail and I'll be putting 70-80 gallon diesel tank in that hole. Diesel tank will be built with external pump and filters and will pump fuel into the factory tank - so no part of the factory Ford fuel system will be modified. When I take her out of NA I'll fill ONLY the 80 Gallon tank so that foreign fuel is always double filtered.