Graham Jackson's TDI 110 Defender

[gjackson]

still, 24 rocks with all that stuff. No tweaks to the Engine to achieve that? My eng. must just be really shagged out.

No tweaks. But my understanding is that from the factory the Defender 300 is detuned compared to the Disco 300. That may account for the better mileage, but I tend to doubt it. I'll be quite interested to see what the RR gets when I finally get her on the road.

cheers

 

[michaelgroves]

But how do you manage 30 MPG?! My 300 tdi Disco only gets about 21?

A manual 300TDi Discovery should get 30 miles/imp gal (25miles/USgal) pretty easily, and a Defender much the same, although at 60mph and above the Defender's fuel consumption starts to rise quickly. The Disco won't do so well over 65mph either. Graham is right, the Defender is detuned vs. the Discovery. If you've an auto, that will probably be worth a mpg or so.

The usual suspects: dirty air cleaner, blocked EGR valve, dragging handbrake, injectors or injector pump need attention (maybe just adjustment), lots of others.

 

[Connie]

A great mechanic is also helpful.

 

[Nonimouse]

You have two states of tune on the 300Tdi. 111bhp (on UK diesel which has a much higher calorific value to US diesel) and the '97 'fly by wire version fitted to the Discovery - this had more power; how much is a much argued thing but figures vary from 121bhp to 130bhp.

There is a school of thought (which I belong to) that the 111bhp figure quoted is actually a factory 'lie', as having spent a shed load of money on the development of the 300, Land Rover discovered it actually put out less than the 200! Drive both back to back in the same type and spec vehicle and you will understand.

However they are both superb engines with few faults. The 300 has a small water jacket than the 200 so is more susceptable to hot running, the 200 is a 'wet' engine; ie oil use is par for the course. Land Rover allowed upto 2 litres per 1000miles as normal running!

The multiple V belt on the 300 definately saps more power than the 200's single V but it allows the cam belt to be changed without dropping the coolant.

There are some wild figure around for tuning, but in the real world a 25% power increase is relatively simple. With more serious work you can reliably double the output. The draw back being that it's only 2.5litres, so you will lose form one end of the rev range to gain at the other. I find that mild tweaks are far better. Avoid the full width 'coolers as they are simply not needed unless you want to go crazy. The AliSport 300Tdi unit made for the Auto Disco will decrease charge temp by 50% more than the standard. It will fit both 200 and 300 and only takes up the same space as the standard unit. Lose the center box, dump the standard air pipes for non deformable units. Turn the 'on demand' diaphragm to 3 o'clock from 12noon and turn the fuel to 2 o'clock form 12 noon. If you want the boost to come on sooner, that's up to you. Anything else needs a boost guage and a EGT sender.

On the 300 dump that EGR unit asap

Both 200 and 300 suffer from poor injectors. UK Diesel will reduce the mist to a spray in 60K and the injectors will need a re-build at 80K plus or there is a danger of hot spotting the piston.

Water wetter works well for making the 200 WARM UP (not cool) as it's notorious for running cold.

Semi synthectic works better than synthetic

Oil change at 3k on road use and 1.5 to 2k on off road

Don't forget the tappets on the 200

Never believe a 110/130/90 factory temperature gauge - they lie!

Both engines benefit form fater spool up of the turbo - so reduce the restrictions. However a straight through pipe makes them sound like a T55...

300's are notorious for minor head cracking around the glow plugs. This is fine until you tune the lump...

Sorry for any Egg Sucking instruction

 

[bigreen505]

Holly crap the engine fell out! How did that happen?

 

[Colorado David]

A great mechanic is also helpful.

Give a cat a hammer and everything looks like a nail!

 

[Maryland 110]

You have two states of tune on the 300Tdi. 111bhp (on UK diesel which has a much higher calorific value to US diesel) and the '97 'fly by wire version fitted to the Discovery - this had more power; how much is a much argued thing but figures vary from 121bhp to 130bhp.

There is a school of thought (which I belong to) that the 111bhp figure quoted is actually a factory 'lie', as having spent a shed load of money on the development of the 300, Land Rover discovered it actually put out less than the 200! Drive both back to back in the same type and spec vehicle and you will understand.

However they are both superb engines with few faults. The 300 has a small water jacket than the 200 so is more susceptable to hot running, the 200 is a 'wet' engine; ie oil use is par for the course. Land Rover allowed upto 2 litres per 1000miles as normal running!

The multiple V belt on the 300 definately saps more power than the 200's single V but it allows the cam belt to be changed without dropping the coolant.

There are some wild figure around for tuning, but in the real world a 25% power increase is relatively simple. With more serious work you can reliably double the output. The draw back being that it's only 2.5litres, so you will lose form one end of the rev range to gain at the other. I find that mild tweaks are far better. Avoid the full width 'coolers as they are simply not needed unless you want to go crazy. The AliSport 300Tdi unit made for the Auto Disco will decrease charge temp by 50% more than the standard. It will fit both 200 and 300 and only takes up the same space as the standard unit. Lose the center box, dump the standard air pipes for non deformable units. Turn the 'on demand' diaphragm to 3 o'clock from 12noon and turn the fuel to 2 o'clock form 12 noon. If you want the boost to come on sooner, that's up to you. Anything else needs a boost guage and a EGT sender.

On the 300 dump that EGR unit asap

Both 200 and 300 suffer from poor injectors. UK Diesel will reduce the mist to a spray in 60K and the injectors will need a re-build at 80K plus or there is a danger of hot spotting the piston.

Water wetter works well for making the 200 WARM UP (not cool) as it's notorious for running cold.

Semi synthectic works better than synthetic

Oil change at 3k on road use and 1.5 to 2k on off road

Don't forget the tappets on the 200

Never believe a 110/130/90 factory temperature gauge - they lie!

Both engines benefit form fater spool up of the turbo - so reduce the restrictions. However a straight through pipe makes them sound like a T55...

300's are notorious for minor head cracking around the glow plugs. This is fine until you tune the lump...

Sorry for any Egg Sucking instruction

Nicely done ! The mileage quotes also have something to do with the roads being run. As you mention mileage drops quickly when road speed exceeds 60. Here in the states, 60 is slow in most area's which is why some complain of low mpg. I get great economy in a 200 110 with a 1.4 tcase and 33's until I do a road trip where speeds are 70-75mph or higher then it drops to high teens. My brother swapped in a 1.2 tcase into his tdi 110 and his truck is now geared well for highways speeds, but has a tall first gear that requires him to shift to low range when driving/crawling around his farm. I have also noticed that the 200 runs cold (180 or lower on the VDO gauge year round) until road speed exceeds 65mph around 2000 rpm. I think this has to do with the coolant speed through the radiator @ that rpm rather than airflow through the radiator. @ 75mph the engine is turning 2500 rpm and runs @ 200f degrees. I am considering switching to a 1.2 @ somepoint primarily to keep the engine in its happy place/zone.

 

[michaelgroves]

You have two states of tune on the 300Tdi. 111bhp (on UK diesel which has a much higher calorific value to US diesel) and the '97 'fly by wire version fitted to the Discovery - this had more power; how much is a much argued thing but figures vary from 121bhp to 130bhp.

There is a school of thought (which I belong to) that the 111bhp figure quoted is actually a factory 'lie', as having spent a shed load of money on the development of the 300, Land Rover discovered it actually put out less than the 200! Drive both back to back in the same type and spec vehicle and you will understand.

However they are both superb engines with few faults. The 300 has a small water jacket than the 200 so is more susceptable to hot running, the 200 is a 'wet' engine; ie oil use is par for the course. Land Rover allowed upto 2 litres per 1000miles as normal running!

The multiple V belt on the 300 definately saps more power than the 200's single V but it allows the cam belt to be changed without dropping the coolant.

There are some wild figure around for tuning, but in the real world a 25% power increase is relatively simple. With more serious work you can reliably double the output. The draw back being that it's only 2.5litres, so you will lose form one end of the rev range to gain at the other. I find that mild tweaks are far better. Avoid the full width 'coolers as they are simply not needed unless you want to go crazy. The AliSport 300Tdi unit made for the Auto Disco will decrease charge temp by 50% more than the standard. It will fit both 200 and 300 and only takes up the same space as the standard unit. Lose the center box, dump the standard air pipes for non deformable units. Turn the 'on demand' diaphragm to 3 o'clock from 12noon and turn the fuel to 2 o'clock form 12 noon. If you want the boost to come on sooner, that's up to you. Anything else needs a boost guage and a EGT sender.

On the 300 dump that EGR unit asap

Both 200 and 300 suffer from poor injectors. UK Diesel will reduce the mist to a spray in 60K and the injectors will need a re-build at 80K plus or there is a danger of hot spotting the piston.

Water wetter works well for making the 200 WARM UP (not cool) as it's notorious for running cold.

Semi synthectic works better than synthetic

Oil change at 3k on road use and 1.5 to 2k on off road

Don't forget the tappets on the 200

Never believe a 110/130/90 factory temperature gauge - they lie!

Both engines benefit form fater spool up of the turbo - so reduce the restrictions. However a straight through pipe makes them sound like a T55...

300's are notorious for minor head cracking around the glow plugs. This is fine until you tune the lump...

Sorry for any Egg Sucking instruction

Good stuff on the 300Tdi!

I'll add a few:

The 300Tdi has a reputation for being extrememly variable in it's subjective feeling of power. Drive one Land Rover, and it feels sluggish and tight, compared to another which seems to fly. I've had one or two of both kinds, and the difference is very noticeable. If you're unfortunate enough to get a sluggish one, try as you might it never becomes a flyer. (Although you can do a lot to fix actual problems, of course, or tune either of them to get more power. I'm talking about comparing two standard engines, where with nothing wrong can be found with either of them. Weird).

I was wrong about the Defender having less power than a Discovery - my reading now tells me they were all the same except the automatics, which were given a few extra horsepower to compensate for the gearbox's performance penalty.

I'd go a step further than Nonimous on the temperature guage thing, and suggest fitting an audible temp alarm. They run cool even flat out in high ambient temperatures, when everything working well. But if something does go wrong, like a thermostat or water pump, say, and she boils - it's not pretty.

On the other hand, I'd disagree on the oil thing. I'm a great believer in good fully synthetic oils (after the engine is fully run in). My tame mechanic (who hasn't got one?) used to service a company fleet of 300TDi Defenders in Spain, which regularly clocked up over 200,000 miles before disposal. On the rare occasions he had to open up one of the high mileage engines, they were like new inside, even showing the original honing marks. Oil and filter changes were done at the standard 10,000km, even in the dusty conditions. (They don't use oil, but they have a huge oil capacity - around 7 litres!).

 

[Nonimouse]

Michael

There's an Australian company that make a very nice low level warning system. A chap in the UK imports them

http://www.coolantalarm.co.uk/index.php?act=viewCat&catId=18

I think the oil is a subjective thing - semi synth and very regular oil changes V's fully synth and less rgular oil changes. As a 200Tdi nut, putting synth oil in is like throwing money on the highway. I did once spend a whole weekend changing every leaking gasket and seal on a 200Tdi (with no excessive crank pressure) OEM seals all round with a smear of Hylomar. Within a week the Vacuum pump seal was seeping. It's like raising the Titanic or stopping an LT230 form leaking - impossible

The 300 is better but that blessed oil leak form the front RHS of the head always comes back!

I can honestly say that of all the diesel engines I have owned/worked on/fitted/played with the 200/300Tdi's are my favourite (closely followed by the 2.8/3.1/3.9 4cyl Isuzu lumps and the Nissan SD3.3T

There is an '86 110 CSW for sale down the road from me. Fully prepped for travel and balloon chasing 20 years ago and then well maintained from then on. It's fitted with an LT85 mated to a 3.9 Isuzu Turbo (no 'cooler). I lust after than bus. It's got triple batteries, X9, Disc braked LSD'd Salisbury, Vented discs on the front, Saudi Spec air con, twin tanks, two eberspachers. Sadly the owner is stuck at £3.5K

 

[gjackson]

Drive one Land Rover, and it feels sluggish and tight, compared to another which seems to fly

That is the truth. Keith's 110 has the same gearing and tires as mine and his flies. I guess I got a slug. But it has been a reliable slug for all that. I wonder if the difference between engines doesn't come down to the timing belt. It seems a couple of mm difference in position on the cam or the injection pump can make a big difference, but the timing marks can be hard to get within a couple of mm. The injection pump and crank obviously have detents, but the cam doesn't.

I just did the timing belt on the RR and it took a while to get the cam position correct. Have to see how she runs.

Thanks for all the great 300 info.

cheers

 

[michaelgroves]

The 300 is better but that blessed oil leak form the front RHS of the head always comes back!

Yup, that's a factory fitment.

We should get together for a beer next time I'm down in the West Country. I'm in Notts, but I travel around a bit. :beer: :beer:

 

[Nonimouse]

Beer is good but Cider is finer.

Are you going to Eastnor?

 

[michaelgroves]

Beer is good but Cider is finer.

Are you going to Eastnor?

It certainly makes for a fine hangover! I doubt I'll get down to Eastnor next weekend, but I might - I'll keep you posted if I do.

 

[Nonimouse]

The cider down here doesn't give you a hangover - it's made from angels tears mixed with fermented apple juice. It's the ambrosia of the gods. What gives you a hangover is when you freeze the water out of it and drink what remains. However this classes as one of your five a day.

PM me if you decide to go

 

[gjackson]

So close to two years later . . .

I'm not one to advocate engine mods on an overland vehicle. Usually such mods just end up decreasing reliability and increasing headaches, while temporarily increasing the 'fun' factor. So it was with a great deal of fore-thought that I entered into this latest mod on the 110.

Anyone who has driven a loaded 300tdi D110 will be intimately acquainted with the term 'turbo lag'. The tiny little turbo that LR supplied for the 300 does an adequate job at mid to high rpm, but at low rpm there just isn't anything there. For a fully loaded expedition truck this can mean dropping into low range to get up steep hills or seriously abusing the clutch. Well, that's a bit of an overstatement. A well tuned 300 can certainly move the metal, but it suffers at low rpm.

So enter the M&D Engineering Garrett 22 VNT kit for the 300tdi Defender. It's been mentioned in other threads and on D90:
http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46623

This past weekend Keith and I fitted it to the **************' Defender. And what a difference! The turbo does NOT increase power, but it does bring on torque at lower rpm, making the 300 much more drivable. Accelerating away from a stop is now effortless, and requires no clutch slipping even on serious inclines. Fewer gear changes are required when climbing as the engine can now power out of the low rpm doldrums. Can't wipe the fat smile off my face!

So we'll see how the reliability holds up. Since there is no increased power output from the motor, there shouldn't be any introduced issues there. The only issues will most likely come from the fitment and finish of the M&D kit.

And this is a true bolt in kit. Has everything you will need to complete the job in about 4 hours. Everything from intake to exhaust. Very slick.

So far driving impressions are great. I get less black smoke at low rpm (predictably). I should get better fuel economy, something I'll check on my way out to Telluride for a Land Rover launch event this week.

Some pics:

The kit comes with everything you need

How the factory supplies things

The stock turbo

Intake and exhaust off

Replacement gasket and exhaust manifold

New turbo in place

Final fitment is neat and seems to work a charm

cheers