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[gus]

G’day all,

I’ve previously posted on the Portal when I was researching alternatives to the Isuzu/Canter as a RTW camper for my wife and I.

Being a little slower than some, I’ve only now seen the light and am ‘going Japanese’.

Thanks to you guys I’ve already gained incredibly detailed info on the two vehicles and their strengths/weaknesses, but still need some basic guidance to get me started.

Because we’ll be travelling solo and to some remote/inhospitable places, my preference is for a non-electronic engine that can tolerate high sulphur diesel (and from what I read, maybe even cooking oil!).

The truck will be pop-top to fit a high cube 40’ shipping container, be fitted with replacement suspension and wheels, and to reduce engine cruising revs will run tyres up to 50mm taller than the largest OEM offered. I’ll also be fitting whatever traction aides are available.

In our situation, which make and model of truck would you recommend?

 

[gus]

Come on guys, what have I done wrong?

Please don’t misunderstand my question. I don’t care anything about which make of vehicle is superior, after all they’re both doing the job in some pretty tough environments.

I’m just looking for help in choosing the make and model that offers the best platform
for the travels planned by my wife and I.

For instance, if one model with a turbo engine was $5-8000 dearer than its predecessor which didn’t have one, it would seem to be the better buy … you’d have to spend that money turboing the previous model anyway, and it would still be an older truck. Are traction aids available for one model but not another?

Also, with most makes, some models are known to have a particular fault that’s best
avoided. I don’t have a clue.

So if you’re not away for Christmas, please guys lay a little wisdom on me.

 

[whatcharterboat]

Hi Gus,

Read your plea.....all I can say is do your research .... And ask guys that have been to the countries you intend to travel to.

We do "traction aids" in the form of ATB front diffs for all FUSO's and the current generation Isusu's .....all the Jap 4bys have good rear diffs standard.

If you are buying new , would you go with a manual transmission 4x4 truck that doesn't have low range? I am sure you can figure this out.

If you're planning extended remote travel in something 2nd hand, buy the truck that's got the lowest k's and not something from a mine site or off the beach either. FUSO 637's are pretty good with an aftermarket turbo but they are getting on a bit now....so were the '05 NPS's....but remember these are all Australian models that were only ever sold in Australia.

Due to the global resources boom (probably), Japanese 4x4 trucks are being introduced to poorer countries where they only ever sold the 2wd models before and being sold new with the old Euro II engines .....unfortunately there is zero chance of ever getting one registered or imported into this country......so don't even think about it.

So if you’re not away for Christmas, please guys lay a little wisdom on me.

This is all pretty obvious advice but hope it helps. .....no Chrissy plans really. Plenty of work on and prefer to trip in the Winter anyway ....what about you ?

 

[SkiFreak]

my preference is for a non-electronic engine that can tolerate high sulphur diesel

Unfortunately, this rules out any new vehicle.

It is still possible to find low Km older Isuzu and Fuso (Canter) trucks, but you may have to wait quite some time to get a good one.
I bought a new truck after spending over twelve months looking for a decent second hand one. Mind you... shortly after getting my truck I heard of two second hand ones that would have been suitable. Isn't it always the way?

From what I have seen, you can get some good deals on ex RFS (Rural Fire Service) trucks. These don't come up that often, but they do come up occasionally. One potential problem with any truck that has been used as a tanker is over stressing of the chassis. Do a very thorough inspection of the chassis rails and cross members to confirm there are no cracks if you are know it's had that kind of life.

Basically, you just have to scour the online sales sites and or the Trading Post until you find something that meets your needs.

 

[whatcharterboat]

Basically, you just have to scour the online sales sites and or the Trading Post until you find something that meets your needs.

Yep....Hi Owen.......I know of one remote RFS that has an '02 NPS, and '00 FG637 and a '11 NPS. None of them have more than 3000k's on them and they get detailed after every use and stored in an AC'd shed with the batteries on charge.....ready for action. They're the sort of trucks to buy. Some of those ADF 637's that went out to auction not too long back were very good too. One of those ADF trucks I heard of had 80 k's on it !!!......BTW I also know of one old 637 that was bought for a camper build that never eventuated....the guy still runs it up the road every couple of months to keep the oil splashed around and the seals supple but basically it's like you're in a timewarp. I keep asking but it's not for sale and I guess he would still want new dollars if he did sell.....that's certainly one thing you can blame the resources boom for.....the stupidly high resale prices of 2nd hand Jap 4x4 trucks.

 

[gus]

Thanks for the response fellas, it was starting to feel a little lonely out here.

I’ve read everything I can lay my eyes on regarding specific weaknesses with various vehicles. But I’m still looking for info on which years the different models came out and what’s the latest year/model I can chase considering I don’t want electronics.

From your comments regarding front locker availability, it seems a Canter might be the way to go, but which one?

By way of background, I’ve been seriously 4WD’ing for 30 years, mainly in the mountains of N/E Victoria. Very little sand experience, except for having to dig us out of a saltpan during a solo summer crossing of ther Simpson a decade ago! Educational but stupid.

I currently run a re-engineered (for insurance protection) and locked GU 4.2 turbo on 35’s. So I’m comfortable with the offroad side of things, once I get help in choosing the right truck.

Eventually, I’d like the RTW truck sizewise to look a lot like the one run by DoubleDutchDownunder. Even just from the outside pics, a lot of practical thinking is obvious. I’d prefer a touch more wheelbase and ground clearance and a little less rear overhang, but reality tends to involve trade-offs.

No Christmas break planned … also prefer the colder getaways.

 

[whatcharterboat]

Thanks for the response fellas, it was starting to feel a little lonely out here.

I'm sure that wasn't intentional....most of the guys in this section are very friendly and helpful.

I've read everything I can lay my eyes on regarding specific weaknesses with various vehicles. But I'm still looking for info on which years the different models came out and what's the latest year/model I can chase considering I don't want electronics.

In the Canter, the 649 came out around '03 or '04 although we were still building on new 637's right into '05 if and when we could find them cause the beach operators were very reluctant to see any electronics cause of corrosion worries but here they are now with '10 plate trucks without too many issues. They just Denso tape all the plugs......Anyway, the 649 has some electronic fuel pump management but they didn't introduce full blown common rail electronics till the 84 in '09....... Hey if you ever want to know the real nitty gritty on the fuel management and electronics of the 84 and 649 's ask young Andrew Amesz.....he certainly knows more than me regarding that stuff.

Anyway that's it basically. I don't think you would go back further than a 637 for the travel you're talking about. So 637 till '03 with no turbo or electronics, 649 till '08 with some management and inter cooled turbo and 84 till '10 with full ECU management, EGR, etc.

From your comments regarding front locker availability, it seems a Canter might be the way to go, but which one?

Front locker is nice but wouldn't really be deal breaker for many. They weren't available at all until last year so all of the extreme travel blogs you may have read about Canters were done without a front locker......

Eventually, I'd like the RTW truck sizewise to look a lot like the one run by DoubleDutchDownunder. Even just from the outside pics, a lot of practical thinking is obvious. I'd prefer a touch more wheelbase and ground clearance and a little less rear overhang, but reality tends to involve trade-offs.

Yeah, obviously, I know that truck well and there were a lot of things that would be done differently if we all had our time over again.......he posts on here sometimes as Fearless..........this was his first truck so all his prior offroad knowledge was on smaller 4wd cars but he would be one of the most experienced and travelled offroaders I've met in this country....and from some of the things he's done in the wet season on Cape York the name "Fearless" definitely suits.

So if you want more ground clearance, go tyres larger than "50 mm taller" for starters. More wheelbase will only reduce your turning circle and your ramp over angle will be a bigger issue than your departure angle.

Maximum overhang (60% of WB) with huge departure angle.......with the dual spares still within the departure angle and under or in other words, not hanging out on the back bar costing around 500mm of valuable module length.......that's the way to go for maximum clearance and camper module size .IMO.

 

[alan]

Maybe something like this. low km's a little expensive but, this model went up to 1996.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1990-MIT...les&hash=item35c234b26f&_uhb=1#ht_6969wt_1158

 

[SkiFreak]

Maybe something like this. low km's a little expensive but, this model went up to 1996.

Other than price, the fact that it is a petrol engine may be an issue for some.

 

[alan]

No the 4D31 is a diesel, the listing says petrol then further down says diesel.

 

[alan]

That wheel carrier setup looks pretty sweet John !

 

[gus]

Thanks for the model breakdown John. That's exactly what I hadn't been able to find.

So it looks like a late model 637, a 649, or maybe even a pre-05 NPS (for which there's no front locker).

I take your point about the drawbacks of excessive wheelbase, but I think it needs to be balanced with
rear overhang, depending on useage. From experience, I find that with too much hanging out the back
your always worried about 'swing-out' when turning, expecially between vehicles and buildings. And
because it's so far back it can be hard to judge.

Looks like I'll need to make the camper shorter and get smarter designing the internal layout.

Catch-up with you all after the Christmas celebrations.

 

[gait]

I have an Aus 2005 649E. From Malaysia to Europe. Currently in Morocco. New parabolics and shocks help the ride. Lack of front diff lock hasn't been an issue, rear limited slip has been good. Clearance, entry and exit angles has been more important than 4wd though met some soft sand a few days ago. Depends on use.

I noticed "pop top". Have you considered a "drop top" - depends how often its going to go in a container and how often its set up for camping, what sort of weather, security, height, comfort, etc. 2" foam in the roof and big windows helps in Aus heat.

Another trick is "bed lift". Interior sprung standard double mattress with quick changeover - bed doesn't need making every day, seating for 8 underneath.

I believe Fearless is replacing Canter with a second hand military Merc in Europe.

 

[gus]

Happy New Year everyone!

Interesting that Fearless is swapping the Canter for something larger. I’d read he was having ‘some troubles’ with the rig O/S … just wondering why he’d want to shift to a larger truck. Anyone know any more?

Thanks for the info on your truck Gait. Do you know much about the extent of electronics on the 649E and whether they can be bypassed/overridden if trouble strikes?

The only vehicle of this type I’ve experienced was an old SWB which I remember vividly as having the worst ride of any truck I’ve ever driven, and screamed its head off at around 85kph! How do you find your parabolics ride on seriously rough tracks... anything you can compared the ride to?

While I’ve read heaps about various modifications to the Canter/NPS, I’m having trouble considering the options in the ‘big picture’ of what’s legal and therefore insurable.

Until the legalities are clarified it’s impossible to plan changes to things like suspension, GVM, wheels and tyres etc. and yet the rules are so damn hard to interpret.

Trying to keep it really simple, from my reading of the Vehicle Standards Bulletin 14, Vicroads allows two options for raising a 4WD’s overall ride height without obtaining engineering approval. One provides for a 75mm increase using a 50mm taller tyre … that’s 50mm lift in the suspension and 25mm in the tyre radius. Sounds good.

However, that regulation stipulates use of only a “commercially available suspension kit manufactured by a Corporation”.

Does anyone know if that rules-out going to a VASS engineer to have a customised suspension fitted, even though engineering approval would be required?

 

[SkiFreak]

I'm having trouble considering the options in the ‘big picture' of what's legal and therefore insurable.

If you can get an engineer to sign off on your modifications then you should be okay. The problem there is that engineering certificates are only valid for the state they certified in. There is absolutely no guarantee that a modification approved in Victoria would also be approved in NSW (unless it is SSM DOTARS certified, which is legal Australia wide). It might go through with no problems but if the inspector wants to be a real pain, he can insist that it be re-engineered by a NSW engineer, which could cost $800 or more.
Most motor registries have lists of "approved engineers". I would strongly suggest that any modifications you have done are certified by one of those listed engineers.
In my opinion, speaking with your engineer and explaining what you want to do, before you do it, is definitely the best way to go.

the rules are so damn hard to interpret

Never a truer word has been spoken...
Our documentation is only a "guideline" and is open to interpretation by whoever is inspecting the vehicle.
I had a discussion about this exact subject with a very reputable engineer and he admitted that it was one of the hardest facets to deal with when doing "out of the ordinary" modifications.

from my reading of the Vehicle Standards Bulletin 14

If you are looking at modifying a light truck, like a 6 tonne Fuso or Isuzu, then I think you are looking at the wrong VSB's. You should be looking at VSB6. Trucks have different rules than cars.
Should you need more information on suspension modifications, I would suggest speaking directly with John (whatcharterboat) at ATW, as they do some pretty serious modification in that area, the coil conversion on my truck being a typical example of their work.
With the SWC and coils, there is a serious difference between the ride height of a standard Fuso and mine.