Horizon Trailer COPYCAT

24HOURSOFNEVADA

Expedition Leader
While enjoying a trip report and read up, I found the following picture. What perturbed me the most was how this picture clearly shows a copycat of an Adventure Trailers design (The Horizon).

I do not know who the gentleman in the picture is, nor his affiliation if any to the trailer. It was the only picture I was able to find of the trailer. The poster lists credit of the trailer to Bob. I wonder if it's any relation to the Bob M. of Tentrax Fame. IF it is, it's not the first time he's ripped off a trailer design. Do a search.

IMG_2310.jpg
 

FurthurOnTheFly

Glamping Society
Yes, this is my picture. Bob is not in that picture. Bob is our friend from California who has taken on the hobby of building trailers for his friends. He formerly worked for a company building toy haulers and other trailers. Every trailer is fully custom with options, so I don't believe there is any "copying" of any trailer in particular going on. He builds these trailers himself in his workshop in California, he has no production line. Obviously his quality must be good enough for you to freak out and start attacking someone you don't know. Honestly, I don't see how this is any different than someone else taking a military trailer and customizing it for their usage. Some of us don't have those kind of skills, we are lucky that we have Bob who is willing to do the work for us.

Or should Adventure Trailers be the only one on the market? No one else should be allowed to manufacture or sell another option?

Bob did this out of necessity. What was the necessity? The fact that a majority of the population can't afford or doesn't want to spend $20k on a trailer. He is a retired guy working on these in his spare time, doing everything himself including the welding. He doesn't have a workshop with a team of people in there cranking these things out in mass production. Bob drives an FJ and this was the FJ Summit...of course he is going to show off his hand-built trailer. He was kind enough to have it brought over to our Camping Lab display to show people that the tent and awning could be mounted to a trailer as well.

I would be honored to pull around one of these trailers...not only for the fact that I know these are quality hand-built by someone I know has the skill, but for the fact that you are still getting a quality custom trailer built in the US for a fraction of the cost.

So relax already!
 

adrenaline503

Explorer
*snap*

If I was going to build myself a trailer, that is the basic design I would use. Seriously, there aren't that many designs to come up with that can be well built. Anyway, cool trailer.
 

24HOURSOFNEVADA

Expedition Leader

slosurfer

Adventurer
There is a big difference between what he made and the chinese thing. The chinese thing ripped off the pics from adventure trailer and photoshopped a different logo on it. This guy makes one off custom trailers in his garage by himself. There is a huge difference there.

This guy makes custom one off trailers. What's the big deal that whomever he built that one for spec'd it out to be very similar to the Horizon?

That design for the Horizon is very good but it's also pretty much how many of us would build a trailer to make good use of space/weight, etc.... When I first got my M416 (without having ever seen an AT), the first thing I dreamt up in my head, was boxes over the wheel wells, main box raised up to that height with a tailgate. Whallah, three storage boxes, and three tables. It's similar, I'm not sure if it's a copy.

Also, from the looking through it, it appears to have no suspension. The suspension on the AT's are one of the things that set it apart. At this point, I don't see the big deal.
 

Trail Monkey

Adventurer, Overland Certified OC0014
Interesting discussion. Im not even totally sure how i feel about it. But ultimately it is a free country. As long as not patents are broken or copyrighted material is stolen, then I suppose theres nothing wrong with it. And clearly the guy looks like he's passionate about what he's doing also.

That being said, the support from AT is unbeatable. The products are well tested and refined. So I dont think M & M have much to be concerned with..:)
 

24HOURSOFNEVADA

Expedition Leader
Miss R2FJ said:
taken on the hobby of building trailers for his friends.

so I don't believe there is any "copying" of any trailer in particular going on. He builds these trailers himself in his workshop in California, he has no production line."

So, if someone has no production line, or overhead it's ok to use someone else's design?


"Obviously his quality must be good enough for you to freak out and start attacking someone you don't know."


It's impossible to judge quality from a photograph and I don't think I have "Freaked out."



Honestly, I don't see how this is any different than someone else taking a military trailer and customizing it for their usage. Some of us don't have those kind of skills, we are lucky that we have Bob who is willing to do the work for us.

Or should Adventure Trailers be the only one on the market? No one else should be allowed to manufacture or sell another option?

Bob did this out of necessity. What was the necessity? The fact that a majority of the population can't afford or doesn't want to spend $20k on a trailer. He is a retired guy working on these in his spare time, doing everything himself including the welding. He doesn't have a workshop with a team of people in there cranking these things out in mass production. Bob drives an FJ and this was the FJ Summit...of course he is going to show off his hand-built trailer. He was kind enough to have it brought over to our Camping Lab display to show people that the tent and awning could be mounted to a trailer as well.

I would be honored to pull around one of these trailers...not only for the fact that I know these are quality hand-built by someone I know has the skill, but for the fact that you are still getting a quality custom trailer built in the US for a fraction of the cost.

So relax already!

I am relaxed, as I stated in my p.m. to you this was not a personal attack on you.

Here's an interesting quote from "Bob" regarding his trailer "Hobby." It pretty much spells it out. Including the "Production Line" and his suspension setup.

http://www.fjcruiserforums.com/forums/1004855-post78.html





p.s. I'd still love to enjoy your company at Surf 'n Turf, if we can get an ExPo corner together.
 
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CA-RJ

Expo Approved™
My guess is that the trailer in the picture does not have the same suspension setup that an AT does.
 

slosurfer

Adventurer
Sounds like he is going to start going in a slightly different direction with the trailer designs and he's having his suspension designed by someone different. Just because it is a "trailing arm" suspension doesn't mean it is a direct copy, especially if he is having it designed.

As long as patents aren't broken and they aren't direct copies, I don't see the big deal. This is the kind of competition that helps progress the industry. The auto industry does the same thing, if no one tried to improve on who has the best in the industry, we would still be in covered wagons.:sombrero: What's wrong with someone seeing if they can make it cheaper, better, lighter, faster, etc.... The fact that it starts out very similar to AT just goes to show how far ahead they are and what a great design they have.

At this point, I would say wait and see how it progresses before calling copycat.
 

Ireland

Adventurer
Besides his trailers are not even white like the true adventure trailer:Astrologist:
A retired guy working out of his garage is no real competition to the pro's and I don't think his customers would have been adventure trailer customers anyway.

Oh and if I was about to drop eight grand on a trailer like that I would most likely drop another two grand to get the real thing especially with the customer satisfaction that adventure trailer has earned.
 

MoGas

Central Scrutinizer
So, should I not open a hardware store because Home Depot already sells hardware? It's called competition. It is good for the consumers to have a choice.
 

GeoTracker90

Adventurer
slosurfer said:
Sounds like he is going to start going in a slightly different direction with the trailer designs and he's having his suspension designed by someone different. Just because it is a "trailing arm" suspension doesn't mean it is a direct copy, especially if he is having it designed.

I may be getting a little picky here but the FJ forum posting said, "I am also working on trailing link type suspension designed by one of the premier sand rail builders in the country."

Now in my understanding a trailing link type suspension can be very different than a trailing arm suspension. The suspension that is on the AT trailers is in my estimation a trailing arm style. There is one arm per wheel and no "links" that I am aware of. A trailing link suspension does not need to be an independant suspension design. I may be similar to the style of suspension that is discussed here.

Now for the meat of the matter. I work for an OEM welding automation company in my day to day job. Competition in the industry has many side benefits. We are currentlty expanding our product offerings and moving into a new area that we have previously not been in. There are other companies that offer the product that we are bringing to market. That does not make us a copy-cat.

The simple matter of the fact is that when comparing two or three items in any industry you have to make sure that you are comparing apples to apples. In the automated welding industry there are choices on which company will provide the controls for the weld process selected. Truth be told, sure you can strike an arc, create a weld puddle, add filler wire, and complete the weld with each of them. The devil is in the details though. What can each system do?

If system A has capability X and that makes it superior to system B can you in good conscience compare them on a level playing field or claim that one is a copy of the other? The company with the added capability and superior system is probably going to ask, and recieve more money for their product. Just because it is more expensive doesn not mean that they are going to loose all of their sales to the company selling the cheaper product. In fact if the product is truly superior and the sales team is accomplishing their job of helping their potential customers understand the true VALUE of the product then the ability to cost justify the purchase becomes easier to accomplish.

I think that the team of M&M at AT have done an excelent job of providing a trailer that is of very high quality and incorporates many, many innovative an so far in the US market exclusive product features. Not only that, but I hear their customer service is exceptional as well. Competitors may emmerge in the market but look at the product development that they will need in order to compare and compete with AT in an apples to apples, level evaluation. M&M continue to be driven not only to improve, but perfect their trailers. This is my own evaluation from the outside looking in. They haven't "rested on the laurels," to use a a cliche.

So, in summary, if having boxes over the wheels/fenders makes a trailer a copy-cat of the AT Horizon then the Outlander Trailers would also fit into this category but, I think that we are comparing apples to mangos. Sure they both provide nutrition, they come from a tree, have some of the same coloring but boy do they taste different. And thank goodness, because I like both of them but for different reasons.

Boy, I feel winded I had better go lie down.:costumed-smiley-007

Mike
 
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FurthurOnTheFly

Glamping Society
I'm not taking it as a personal attack. I just agree with the other members here who has expressed their ideas about healthy competition, the difference between Bob and a Chinese knock-off, and giving people a choice. I don't know that much about AT's business plan, but I think its safe to say that someone was probably sitting around a campfire one night and said "hey, you know what would be cool? If we could build some of those trailers like they have in Africa for the expeditions!" I guess I feel like your sudden defense of AT is a little uncalled for when their initial ideas came from someone else as well.

The fact is that Bob did not infringe on any copyrights or patents. As a matter of fact he has AT products as parts on his trailer! Purchased from AT!!

Maybe AT isn't worried about expanding their clientel, maybe they already have more business than they can handle....however hearing from the organizers at the Summit this year the #1 things attendees were asking for was trailers and RTT's.....there were no trailer companies there other than Bob, if you even want to call him a "company".
 

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