yeah, 130pm would have been a different story. not much different, but different.
Last edited:
How are you guys handling yourselves in strange circumstances off the grid?
- Thread starter leftcoastal
- Start date
yeah, 130pm would have been a different story. not much different, but different.
JaSAn
Grumpy Old Man
In Minneapolis (the biggest city near me) there were 644 carjackings last year, in all parts of the city. All of them were violent encounters, most included the use of a weapon, and all would be a legal use of a firearm for self-defense.
rruff
Explorer
So if someone has you at gunpoint and wants to steal your car, you'd pull out your gun? How many of those 644 people did that?
pith helmet
Well-known member
How are you guys handling yourselves in the strange circumstances of this thread?
JaSAn
Grumpy Old Man
If it got to that point you've not been paying attention. Google 'carjacker shot by victim'.
craig333
Expedition Leader
Maybe I am being paranoid when I think I"m being situationally aware and turn around and find another place to camp. Maybe not. Absolutely I'm in more danger at home than I am in the woods. After reading game warden stories from the same area I frequent I never assume anything anymore.
[/QUOTE]
Yep...at the first opportunity... but I wouldn't just be pulling out my firearm, there would be loud noises that accompanied that...
Kevin108
Explorer
I've replied already, but now I'm thinking of the actual strange circumstances I've met.
In 2018, after leaving my Dad's funeral, a friend and I pulled into a spot we'd stayed at previously and were setting up in the dark. My FJ had nearly 360° of light and I had them all on while we were getting situated. A drunk dude pulled his Durango into our site, thinking he was seeing a UFO landing. After he met with a tree backing out of our site, I helped him get turned around, and sent him on his way.
Later that year, we were in the same site, and I spot a guy a few hundred feet away pissing in the river. I call my buddy Allen over to look without telling him what he's going to see. Allen's angry, but laughing, and we still joke about me making him look at the dude with his peen out. We think nothing of it, then like 15 minutes later, the dude pulls into our site and starts telling us what a good spot it is. There is plenty of room for him, but dammit we were there first, and we don't need this weirdo for company. We invent an even better spot he should go check out, tell him a complete fabrication of what it's like, and he heads off to check it out. We never saw him again.
Another night, we're camped up on a ridge that the trail curves by below. There are dozens of places to camp along the trail, but really only a central area up on the ridge. We've been there for hours with 3 vehicles, all setup for the night. We have chairs out and a fire going when this white XJ pulls in almost on top of us. It's two guys and two girls, clearly like 20 years our junior, that want to get past to camp on the other end of the ridge, maybe 500 feet away. We begrudgingly let them through, and say to one another, "These kids are going to get drunk and scream at each other all night." We're full-on grumpy old men, imagining every scenario we've seen play out in similar situations. Meanwhile, our neighbors make no noise getting setup. We're surprised. A couple hours later, they come up with a variety of Devil's Backbone beers with some friendly dogs in tow. We hang out getting to know each other for a couple hours. They have another vehicle come in, and head back to their site. We still keep in touch, almost 3 years later.
So not every odd experience is a bad one, and this is 3 instances over close to 200 nights in this particular area, so they are rare.
In the last couple of years, I have accidentally pulled into a couple sites that were occupied. When the whole world was shut down, a lot of people discovered the outdoors since camping was one of the only things you could still do outside of your own home. I've seen a lot of people use flags, string, and other items to indicate that a spot is taken. What we have started doing is putting flagging tape across the entrance once we've pulled into a camp site. Since then, we've had zero unwelcome guests. You can get like 300' for $7 in almost any color you want. It's well worth the investment.
In 2018, after leaving my Dad's funeral, a friend and I pulled into a spot we'd stayed at previously and were setting up in the dark. My FJ had nearly 360° of light and I had them all on while we were getting situated. A drunk dude pulled his Durango into our site, thinking he was seeing a UFO landing. After he met with a tree backing out of our site, I helped him get turned around, and sent him on his way.
Later that year, we were in the same site, and I spot a guy a few hundred feet away pissing in the river. I call my buddy Allen over to look without telling him what he's going to see. Allen's angry, but laughing, and we still joke about me making him look at the dude with his peen out. We think nothing of it, then like 15 minutes later, the dude pulls into our site and starts telling us what a good spot it is. There is plenty of room for him, but dammit we were there first, and we don't need this weirdo for company. We invent an even better spot he should go check out, tell him a complete fabrication of what it's like, and he heads off to check it out. We never saw him again.
Another night, we're camped up on a ridge that the trail curves by below. There are dozens of places to camp along the trail, but really only a central area up on the ridge. We've been there for hours with 3 vehicles, all setup for the night. We have chairs out and a fire going when this white XJ pulls in almost on top of us. It's two guys and two girls, clearly like 20 years our junior, that want to get past to camp on the other end of the ridge, maybe 500 feet away. We begrudgingly let them through, and say to one another, "These kids are going to get drunk and scream at each other all night." We're full-on grumpy old men, imagining every scenario we've seen play out in similar situations. Meanwhile, our neighbors make no noise getting setup. We're surprised. A couple hours later, they come up with a variety of Devil's Backbone beers with some friendly dogs in tow. We hang out getting to know each other for a couple hours. They have another vehicle come in, and head back to their site. We still keep in touch, almost 3 years later.
So not every odd experience is a bad one, and this is 3 instances over close to 200 nights in this particular area, so they are rare.
In the last couple of years, I have accidentally pulled into a couple sites that were occupied. When the whole world was shut down, a lot of people discovered the outdoors since camping was one of the only things you could still do outside of your own home. I've seen a lot of people use flags, string, and other items to indicate that a spot is taken. What we have started doing is putting flagging tape across the entrance once we've pulled into a camp site. Since then, we've had zero unwelcome guests. You can get like 300' for $7 in almost any color you want. It's well worth the investment.
We were camping last year and a couple of cyclists came by on gravel bikes. They stopped to wait for their group and my wife and I, being cyclists, asked if they needed anything. They said they had food and water and only had a few miles to their camp. We offered to let them stay with us since it was getting dark, they said they would keep going. We offered beers while they waited for the rest of the group and they were all of over it. We chatted for 30 minutes while they drank a beer each and then they headed to their camp. We did not stay in touch but it was a good experience. Most people have goodwill in their hearts, only a few are asses.
TripLeader
Explorer
...
That prompted me to do some "internet research". Wasp spray is a neurotoxin that can permanently blind a person and mess them up big time if they get a large enough dose, but it is not fast acting and won't stop a determined attack. Pepper spray really doesn't either, but...
It is also not legal in *any* state, as it's a violation of federal law to use it against a person. This leaves you open to criminal and civil lawsuits if you are trigger-happy. I think a gun would be a better choice if you really feel the need for something, or just get some good pepper spray.
...
[/QUOTE]
Wasp spray as a weapon against another person? Not necessarily illegal. Not necessarily legal. Firearms as a weapon against another person? Same answer.
If you are in a situation in which you are justified to shoot someone, you can absolutely spray them with wasp spray. To each their own. Use what you have. Run what ya brung. Dance with the girl you brought.
Some of us are lucky enough never to need weapons. Some of us are not.
That prompted me to do some "internet research". Wasp spray is a neurotoxin that can permanently blind a person and mess them up big time if they get a large enough dose, but it is not fast acting and won't stop a determined attack. Pepper spray really doesn't either, but...
It is also not legal in *any* state, as it's a violation of federal law to use it against a person. This leaves you open to criminal and civil lawsuits if you are trigger-happy. I think a gun would be a better choice if you really feel the need for something, or just get some good pepper spray.
...
[/QUOTE]
Wasp spray as a weapon against another person? Not necessarily illegal. Not necessarily legal. Firearms as a weapon against another person? Same answer.
If you are in a situation in which you are justified to shoot someone, you can absolutely spray them with wasp spray. To each their own. Use what you have. Run what ya brung. Dance with the girl you brought.
Some of us are lucky enough never to need weapons. Some of us are not.
rruff
Explorer
Even the the asses do. You just have to dig deeper to find it...
In order to justify being an ass towards you, they need to make you a "bad guy" in their minds... an enemy, not of their "tribe". Just dissuade them of that notion by not throwing it back at them... and be persistent at it if necessary.
TripLeader
Explorer
Deadly force is deadly force. Whether its from a firearm, fists, rocks, or wasp spray.
If the law allows you to put a bullet through another's heart, it allows you to put wasp spray in a face. A weapon of necessity is not necessarily unlawful.
I doubt think it would invoke the federal law cited previously. Homicide cases are rarely of federal concern. But expect to get civilly sued no matter what if you have used deadly force.
If the law allows you to put a bullet through another's heart, it allows you to put wasp spray in a face. A weapon of necessity is not necessarily unlawful.
I doubt think it would invoke the federal law cited previously. Homicide cases are rarely of federal concern. But expect to get civilly sued no matter what if you have used deadly force.
Grassland
Well-known member
Having used wasp spray against wasps, I can totally see how that would mess somebody up getting a face full. That stuff is nasty. But exactly what wasps deserve.
What I've learned from this thread, is I have even less desire to go to California than I did before.
If I wanted overpriced fuel and violent crime I could stay home for a lot less money.
What I've learned from this thread, is I have even less desire to go to California than I did before.
If I wanted overpriced fuel and violent crime I could stay home for a lot less money.
DieselRanger
Well-known member
Front country - i.e., urban/suburban state parks: Generally lots of people around. Homeless camps sure, but most of those people just want to be left alone. If I feel I need to carry, I don't go there, and here in Colorado the vast majority of people are recreational trail users. Avoid conflict by studying the particular park and trail system - know of any special trail use rules (e.g., mountain bikes only on odd days or whatever) - when news-making encounters happen, it's usually because of a conflict over trail use and/or perceptions of what proper trail use is.
Side country - i.e., NF near suburban areas - here in Colorado, this is now becoming the homeless suburbs, and there are lots of people with questionable judgment. I conceal carry always. Shooting is legal in most NF areas here - unregulated except for the eye-of-the-law-enforcement-officer's "reckless use" judgment, and always consult a map and your surroundings before ripping off some rounds yourself. Was approached on the trail five miles from the trailhead an hour out of town one day by two fully tactically kitted USFS rangers and a Sheriff's deputy looking for someone they said was camping in the area and was dangerous - asked if I had seen any signs of camping or happened upon anyone strange or standoffish or outright violent. Turns out the dude had been living in a cave on a meth binge and was breaking into cars at trailheads and held up a couple of young women for their car. There have been several murders, shootings, and bodies dumped up and down the Front Range sidecountry in the last ten years, concentrated near the usual urban areas. Have heard automatic weapons fire and fully automatic shotguns. This to me is the most dangerous kind of area - people of questionable character and judgment can get to it easily, but it's far enough outside of civilized areas that they feel they can get away with anything. Most of the time, they too want to be left alone and don't want to threaten anyone. Policy: be polite, conceal carry, and have your spidey senses up and your radar calibrated to your surroundings. Seek out local knowledge if you're going to a new-to-you sidecountry area.
Backcountry - I open carry because the biggest threat is wildlife, and sometimes people's large dogs that are off-leash, and I want speed vs. discretion in those cases. Most people you meet in the deep backcountry are not threats, and chance/surprise encounters in the Rockies and intermountain West are not generally with criminal elements. I've surprised more couples engaged in "afternoon delights" than people doing things they shouldn't. Again, always be polite, stay aware of your surroundings, and be keen to red flags. Some people are uncomfortable when they see you have a firearm, but they'll generally scuttle away. Ignore any snide comments, and don't talk to people with your hand resting on the butt of your sidearm like you're ************** John Wayne. Once I've sized up the other party and determined they're not a threat, my hands are on my pack straps near my chest the whole time when I'm wearing a drop, or if I have a chest rig, they're on my waistbelt and I don't move my hands toward my weapon or touch it - unless I feel I need to draw it.
Regarding concealed vs open carry - this is a debate as old as America - but I tend to land on the side of being the "gray man" in the most high-probability encounter areas. Don't advertise you're a tacti-cool ************ (including don't put your "Smith and Wesson Still Beats Four Aces" sticker on your truck), always look for cover, retreat paths, and exits. Advertising your ability, equipment, and intent in those situations can make you the first target and object of tactical surprise if someone intent on doing people harm see you first. In deep wilderness, open carry means faster access to your firearm when you need it, with a statistically zero chance of meeting someone intent on doing you harm.
Firearm vs bear spray: bullets don't blow back in your face or your companions', and there are studies that show between a firearm and bear spray, firearms are as near to 100% effective a can be at stopping a predatory or otherwise violent wildlife encounter, whereas pepper spray is measurably less effective (~85% or so for *effectively* employed spray). There have been a few documented cases where pepper spray has turned brown bear encounters from what was likely a bluff into a full-on attack. Carrying the right gear for the job is also important - there was a recent report in Alaska of a dogsled team attacked and stomped by a bull moose, the musher dumped her magazine (a .380) into the moose and it turned away from her, but just stood there and took it while it stomped the dogs, for over an hour. Took someone with a rifle to come from the nearest town to kill it. Guaranteed had that been a caliber with power behind it, that moose would have dropped or given up. After that she decided she needed more firepower.
Side country - i.e., NF near suburban areas - here in Colorado, this is now becoming the homeless suburbs, and there are lots of people with questionable judgment. I conceal carry always. Shooting is legal in most NF areas here - unregulated except for the eye-of-the-law-enforcement-officer's "reckless use" judgment, and always consult a map and your surroundings before ripping off some rounds yourself. Was approached on the trail five miles from the trailhead an hour out of town one day by two fully tactically kitted USFS rangers and a Sheriff's deputy looking for someone they said was camping in the area and was dangerous - asked if I had seen any signs of camping or happened upon anyone strange or standoffish or outright violent. Turns out the dude had been living in a cave on a meth binge and was breaking into cars at trailheads and held up a couple of young women for their car. There have been several murders, shootings, and bodies dumped up and down the Front Range sidecountry in the last ten years, concentrated near the usual urban areas. Have heard automatic weapons fire and fully automatic shotguns. This to me is the most dangerous kind of area - people of questionable character and judgment can get to it easily, but it's far enough outside of civilized areas that they feel they can get away with anything. Most of the time, they too want to be left alone and don't want to threaten anyone. Policy: be polite, conceal carry, and have your spidey senses up and your radar calibrated to your surroundings. Seek out local knowledge if you're going to a new-to-you sidecountry area.
Backcountry - I open carry because the biggest threat is wildlife, and sometimes people's large dogs that are off-leash, and I want speed vs. discretion in those cases. Most people you meet in the deep backcountry are not threats, and chance/surprise encounters in the Rockies and intermountain West are not generally with criminal elements. I've surprised more couples engaged in "afternoon delights" than people doing things they shouldn't. Again, always be polite, stay aware of your surroundings, and be keen to red flags. Some people are uncomfortable when they see you have a firearm, but they'll generally scuttle away. Ignore any snide comments, and don't talk to people with your hand resting on the butt of your sidearm like you're ************** John Wayne. Once I've sized up the other party and determined they're not a threat, my hands are on my pack straps near my chest the whole time when I'm wearing a drop, or if I have a chest rig, they're on my waistbelt and I don't move my hands toward my weapon or touch it - unless I feel I need to draw it.
Regarding concealed vs open carry - this is a debate as old as America - but I tend to land on the side of being the "gray man" in the most high-probability encounter areas. Don't advertise you're a tacti-cool ************ (including don't put your "Smith and Wesson Still Beats Four Aces" sticker on your truck), always look for cover, retreat paths, and exits. Advertising your ability, equipment, and intent in those situations can make you the first target and object of tactical surprise if someone intent on doing people harm see you first. In deep wilderness, open carry means faster access to your firearm when you need it, with a statistically zero chance of meeting someone intent on doing you harm.
Firearm vs bear spray: bullets don't blow back in your face or your companions', and there are studies that show between a firearm and bear spray, firearms are as near to 100% effective a can be at stopping a predatory or otherwise violent wildlife encounter, whereas pepper spray is measurably less effective (~85% or so for *effectively* employed spray). There have been a few documented cases where pepper spray has turned brown bear encounters from what was likely a bluff into a full-on attack. Carrying the right gear for the job is also important - there was a recent report in Alaska of a dogsled team attacked and stomped by a bull moose, the musher dumped her magazine (a .380) into the moose and it turned away from her, but just stood there and took it while it stomped the dogs, for over an hour. Took someone with a rifle to come from the nearest town to kill it. Guaranteed had that been a caliber with power behind it, that moose would have dropped or given up. After that she decided she needed more firepower.