I-6 or V8?

[DaveInDenver]

The 22R does have a timing chain design flaw, but is the result of a mysterious change in design that occured in 1983 when they went to cheaper single timing chain. The single chain alone is not the culprit, since the 1FZ also has a single chain, but virtually no timing chain issues. The plastic guides are commonly blamed, as they were part of the redesign in '83.

It is not a flaw. I think it can be fairly called a weak spot when compared to the rest of the engine, but the change was in part to make the engine quieter and better revving. The 'flaw' is the piece of junk aftermarket guides and tensioners, in particular the non-OEM plastic ones. The OEM parts last just fine and it's rare for a set of genuine factory guides not to go the distance of the life of the chain. My original guides went 140,000 miles without breaking and got replaced with metal guides. They broke (for whatever reason, most likely a junk tensioner, also not OEM). I went with all OSK or Toyota boxed timing parts this time. I'm not risking it again, with Toyota I know the OEM guides go 100,000 miles and so it's an R&R every 100K, new chain, tensioner and guides. A flaw would imply there is a fundamental problem with the design and the problem is not the design, but the widely varying build quality of the parts. The chain stretches, the tensioner can no longer keep the chain from slapping on the guides and that breaks them. They don't break as long as the tensioner is working. You have to also temper the hearsay because things like running the wrong weight oil can be a big factor is how the tensioner works. If someone is running 20W50, the oil pressure won't build as quickly on start-up, which has a huge effect on how fast the tensioner starts working. If it takes 2 seconds more every time an engine is started for the tensioner to operate, that over a few years will ruin things. Millions of people have over the years just driven their 22R/-E for hundreds of thousands of miles not knowing any better. It's when you hit the second owner, the replacement timing parts, etc. that you started hearing about this weakness. The first owners just happily drove for 10 or 12 years without much issue.

 

[ginericLC]

The 80 series is my favorite LC model offered in the US. However, I would not recommend it to someone wanting to get back on their feet financially. There is a lot of maintenance to 80s and it doesn't come cheap. Front axle rebuilds, birfs if not maintained, head gaskets, heater hoses, starter contacts, brakes etc... are all expensive items. Not so much the parts but the labor involved in replacing these items. Look at how many folks spend 1-2k on Mud baselining a new rig. That is a lot.

I'd be looking for a 4cylinder 4 runner with a manual tranny or even an early Tacoma with a topper. Adding a rear heater would be cheaper and easier than some of the maintenance items on the 80. Plus it would be a lot easier on gas. Tires are cheaper, etc...

I was a firm believer that you could take care of a 1FZ and have the head gasket survive. Mine just went days after I sold it. 230k on the clock. And while the engine may have had this failure at 230k I consider it to be a very reliable and long lasting design. Prior to that, that motor had never been opened up. I have a friend with 303k on his 93 and it is all original. How many Chevy alternators, water pumps, valve seats, and fuel pumps would it have taken for a 350 to get that far? Or maybe the composite intake manifold was cracked? Or the plastic heater hose broke off in the intake? And what would the compression numbers be like on that 350 at 230k? I bring up the 350 because it is a common motor in the US and one that has been running for a long time. If I wanted to really compare, what about the I6 Chevy and GM use in the Trailblazer and Envoy. How many sleeves have come loose in those motors? How many didn't make it to 50k? My point is, there is some weakness in almost every design. Choose what you want to repair and how often and then choose the vehicle you want to buy.

My personal picks for motors I'd love to have a lifetime. Gasoline the 22RE and diesel a 5 cylinder turbo from Mercedes from the mid 80s.

 

[Pskhaat]

The V8 UZ block does indeed have luxury sedan heritage but still (even to my suprise) shows a good steep torque curve. Starter's a PITA to get to. Wear numbers are off-the-charts good. I don't know how much block wall there is for rebuilds as I'm pretty sure (?) that 4.7 litres is pushing the upper-end of nominal displacment.

The 1FZ-FE drives much more torquey and I prefer it while off-road. My 1FZ-FE HG was changed and I babied my 80 with all the right stuff and effort. Takes more oil.

You really can't go wrong with either unless you found a manual tranny and Toy diesel.

 

[Redline]

I haven't done or read oil analysis data for the 2UZ 4.7L V8 (yet) but I'm very happy to hear the data is “off the charts” good! If I prove my wife wrong and keep the little 4Runner for more than a couple years I should be looking forward to many thousands of trouble free miles. Running good synthetic and doing above average maintenance should make success a near certainty ☺

What do you think 300K?

The V8 UZ block does indeed have luxury sedan heritage but still (even to my suprise) shows a good steep torque curve. Starter's a PITA to get to. Wear numbers are off-the-charts good. I don't know how much block wall there is for rebuilds as I'm pretty sure (?) that 4.7 litres is pushing the upper-end of nominal displacment.

The 1FZ-FE drives much more torquey and I prefer it while off-road. My 1FZ-FE HG was changed and I babied my 80 with all the right stuff and effort. Takes more oil.

You really can't go wrong with either unless you found a manual tranny and Toy diesel.

 

[calamaridog]

I have no reason to doubt 300k from the 2UZFE motors. I know several people running them well past 200k now.

I'm running 10k Mobil 1 changes. The numbers have been shown to be good on this interval.

 

[MoGas]

This relates to the post I had about FJ-60's as daily drivers -

It is not going to be a permeant ride for her - maybe two years. The deal we have is I will help her research it, and when the time comes for her to move on, I'll buy it from her.

The first post here will explain the "why"
http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9245

Thought we had a nice 60 for little $, but that went away - there is a covey of 80's around - here is a list I am looking at:

Offer 10-5 on the 97....It has lockers

 

[Redline]

One of the things that has been preventing me from going to 10k for oil changes is that I have not done my own oil analysis. I also don't like that the oil filter is so small, but I assume it is up to the task. If I have to change the oil filter mid-cycle, I would just as soon change the oil too. I have an FEMCO oil drain on the pan and removing the skid plate and changing the filter is the bigger part of the job.

I'm using Red Line 5w-30 and Toyota oil filters and change the oil every 5,000 indicated miles, which is closer to 5,500-miles with the odometer error. Maybe I will pull a sample before my 15k oil change. I like a 10k oil & filter change interval if it won't sacrifice longevity. I would probably still need to do a lube/grease job every 5,000-mi.

My wife's little 1.9L TDI Golf calls for a 10k change interval using 5w-40 synthetic diesel oil, and I have been using that interval and good oil since I bought the car with 18k on it.

I have no reason to doubt 300k from the 2UZFE motors. I know several people running them well past 200k now.

I'm running 10k Mobil 1 changes. The numbers have been shown to be good on this interval.

 

[kbellve]

It is good to hear that the 2UZFE are getting to 300K.

I consider the 22RE (and variations) and the 1FZE to be 100K engines. They will get you to 100K without too much fuss, but then it becomes maintenance issues. 100K to 200K are when you run into trouble.

Those two engines were designed many years ago. Back then, getting an engine to 100K without problems was good. Try and get away with that today.

The best motor I have ever owned is a 3.0V DOHC Duratec motor by Ford. First one I had was a 2000 and it went to 160K before my wife decided to wreck the car. Only thing done to that engine was air filter, oil filters and one set of spark plugs. I ran the engine with dino oil and even at 160K, the oil would look fresh after 3,000 miles. It had a lifetime timing chain as well.

The next 3.0V DOHC Duratec we owned, we also took it to 160K before my daughter decided she rather go off-road than on-road! Again, oil, air filters and one change of spark plugs at 100k.

We bought a 2007 Ford Fusion with the same engine and expect it to easily get to 200K, assuming it doesn't get wrecked first

My wife puts a ton of miles on her cars...

My Lexus LX450 is at 160K now, but I could write a huge list of issues it has had since 90K. It isn't a vehicle to buy if you are shy about maintenance and even if you do everything by the book, you will still run into trouble.

So, I would shy away from the I-6 if you want reliability..and instead go with the newer V8. Engines manufacturers have been making huge strides as far as reliability and emissions are concerned.

Doesn't the new V8 use a timing belt? Also, isn't the starter under the intake manifold? Real stupid place to put it because you know the starter will fail...because Toyota starters do....

 

[MoGas]

I consider the 22RE (and variations) and the 1FZE to be 100K engines. They will get you to 100K without too much fuss, but then it becomes maintenance issues. 100K to 200K are when you run into trouble.

Those two engines were designed many years ago. Back then, getting an engine to 100K without problems was good. Try and get away with that today.....

What? I personally know of several 22Rrs,1FZ-FEs and 3FEs with well over 200k on each of them that have been trouble free. Mine is @ 211k and I'd hop in and drive to Maine and back without hesitation.

Toyota suggests that you rebuild the 1FZ at 300k with the walls being thick enough for 2 oversize borings if necessary. I have seen 1FZs and 22Rs with the heads off at mileage ranging from 145k to 234k and there was still crosshatching in the cylinders.

My Lexus LX450 is at 160K now, but I could write a huge list of issues it has had since 90K. Please do It isn't a vehicle to buy if you are shy about maintenance and even if you do everything by the book, you will still run into trouble.

So, I would shy away from the I-6 if you want reliabilityAgain, What??..and instead go with the newer V8. Engines manufacturers have been making huge strides as far as reliability and emissions are concerned.

Doesn't the new V8 use a timing belt? Yes Also, isn't the starter under the intake manifold? I don't knowReal stupid place to put it because you know the starter will fail...because Toyota starters do....I am doing PREVENTATIVE starter contacts on mine with 211k

 

[DaveInDenver]

...22Rs with the heads off at mileage ranging from 145k to 234k and there was still crosshatching in the cylinders.

This is what my old block looked like at ~187K miles.

View attachment 12625

 

[kbellve]

Please do

LX450 issues:
Head gasket at 90K ($1500+ at dealer)
Front End maintenance at 130K ($1000 at dealer)
PHH at 145K (lost coolant, tow home)
Water Pump at 155K (lost coolant, manage to plug the weep holes and get home)
Starter contacts at 125K (easy fix for a DIY, but still $$$$ at dealer)
Radiator at 155K (changed the same time as water pump, showed signs of leakage, $800)

Everything done by myself, but I was quoted some figures if the dealer did the repair.

More later...car pooling and wife is here to pick me up.

 

[AndrewP]

kbellve:

Regarding 80 series and their 1FZs

Mine is at 115k and runs like new, uses no oil between changes, not sure why you consider it a 100k motor. Original HG by the way-I'll remedy that this year. Repairs since 1999--EGR vsv, starter contacts. Everything else is routine maintenance.

How about Kurt over on ih8mud who just turned 300k on his FZJ? I disagree that it isn't made to go the distance. The FZJ clearly had a 100k headgasket that Toyota has redesigned. Oh well. Fix it with the new gasket and rest easy. Even there, plenty of original HGs are in the 200k range with no issues.

Things like the PHH--in a bad place for sure, but your hose should have been replaced long before 145K! I would not blame that failure on Toyota. You knew it was a potential problem and chose not to replace it until it failed.

Starters--normal replacement in ALL cars.

Water pump-normal, Though yours is the first one I've heard of going bad. Maybe the HG, radiator and WP were all related by a lack of maintenance on your particular vehicle.

Radiator--Normal as well.

Front axle rebuild-normal per Toyota at 60k intervals and most go double that.

Pretending these are issues is disingenuous.

Plenty of 1FZs getting way up in miles with few issues, other than the occasional headgasket which Mr. Toy addressed retrospectively by designing a new HG.

They are definitely maintenance intensive vehicles. That's because they are designed to be serviced and rebuilt many times, even in less than ideal conditions.

And the 22re family of motors?--most consider that one of the great all time work horse motors.

Most people would not say "Ford" and "reliable" in the same post. That almost a laughable comparison, but glad your luck with these was good..

 

[Pskhaat]

Head gasket at 90K ($1500+ at dealer

Yep, sounds like a good deal actually.

Front End maintenance at 130K ($1000 at dealer)

A rebuild is perfectly expected on any vehicle with that mileage. The price looks really high.

PHH at 145K (lost coolant, tow home)

$5 part should have been replaced at 90k at HG change?

Radiator at 155K (changed the same time as water pump, showed signs of leakage, $800)

Not bad really, but I agree that's bad. Maybe due to the HG probs?

 

[kbellve]

How about Kurt over on ih8mud who just turned 300k on his FZJ?

That is fantastic...but out of the thousands of ih8mud members, that is the first one I can recall posting 300K...but I am sure there is more.

I disagree that it isn't made to go the distance. The FZJ clearly had a 100k headgasket that Toyota has redesigned.

That alone should tell you that the V8 is better than the I6, which is the original question. Who cares if Toyota redesigned the HG? Are they paying to put a new HG in? Nope. BTW, a leaky HG can destroy a block if you don't catch it in time. My head had to be shaved 0.006 at 90K due to the damage and that is close to the limit allowed by Toyota.

You knew it was a potential problem and chose not to replace it until it failed.

At the time, I didn't know it was a problem. I only had the vehicle for less than a 1 year. I didn't even know it existed!! I replaced all the hoses when I did the HG, but I didn't see that sneaky little hose

Then later, I thought I did replace it, but obviously I didn't.

Starters--normal replacement in ALL cars.

I know it is normal for Toyotas, and some American V8s due to the placement near the exhaust, but I have yet to replace a starter on anything but a Toyota. My brother's 1987 Chevy has 300K on it, on the original motor with the original head gasket. Not sure about the starter.

Water pump-normal, Though yours is the first one I've heard of going bad.
And the 22re family of motors?--most consider that one of the great all time work horse motors.

I have owned Toyotas for nearly 20 years, and I have plenty of experience on the 22R-E and now on the 1FZE. I have done almost 400K on toyotas. Every single one of them were bought post 75K. So, I am very intimate on what it takes to get a 22RE or a 1FZE from 100K to 200K.

If I had to choose a motor, it wouldn't be a 1FZE but the newer V8.

Oh, my 1FZE doesn't use any oil, but some do, a quart/1000 miles is considered normal by Toyota. I run full synthetic in it.

I reserve judgment on newer toyota motors because I haven't actually owned one, but I will assume they have improved. I suggest you reserve judgment on newer Ford motors until you have actually owned one.

 

[Pskhaat]

...when I did the HG

:bowdown: That's one job I'm glad I didn't do