If Jeep offered more choices.....
- Thread starter Metcalf
- Start date
Clutch
<---Pass
Yeah it is like anything else, get a vehicle that suits the needs of where it will be used the most. Petrol works for me. We ride dirt bikes...so it is nice to have fuel that you can run between the two, and not having to carry extra provisions of having two separate fuel types.
And with today's engines reliability is a non-issue.
Seems like we always want what we can't have....my Aussie friends want more petrol powered vehicles rather diesel...go figure!
Metcalf
Expedition Leader
At this point for a USA based 'local' expedition vehicle that would travel to Canada and Mexico I can't see much reason to go with a modern diesel. Gasoline seems to be much more universal between the USA and Mexico? I've seen some conflicting reports on ULSD fuel in Mexico, but it doesn't seem like it's an across the board option in Mexico yet.
I am attracted to diesel engines because they DO give more range for the given gallon of fuel and fuel weight. You basically have to take the cost of diesel out of the equation at that point....don't even get me started on that one.
I think it's only fair that we should be given the choice on diesel vs gas in more vehicles.... especially ones that are manufactured here in the 1st place.
I'm fairly sure the 3.0 VM/Fiat diesel meets USA diesel emissions in the 2013 Grand Cherokee WITHOUT the use of any kind of fluid after-treatment? So....basically a current Euro V engine in europe can meet USA diesel emissions in 2013? That basically tells me that Jeep is just lazy and doesn't want to give us the diesel Wrangler with the current 2.8 diesel from Europe.
I am attracted to diesel engines because they DO give more range for the given gallon of fuel and fuel weight. You basically have to take the cost of diesel out of the equation at that point....don't even get me started on that one.
I think it's only fair that we should be given the choice on diesel vs gas in more vehicles.... especially ones that are manufactured here in the 1st place.
I'm fairly sure the 3.0 VM/Fiat diesel meets USA diesel emissions in the 2013 Grand Cherokee WITHOUT the use of any kind of fluid after-treatment? So....basically a current Euro V engine in europe can meet USA diesel emissions in 2013? That basically tells me that Jeep is just lazy and doesn't want to give us the diesel Wrangler with the current 2.8 diesel from Europe.
Frank
Explorer
Metcalf
Expedition Leader
From what I understand Jeep is MAXED on production and doesn't have the capacity for more.
What I don't understand is why they are not taking advantage of increased demand to expand and offer more. I know that takes time, probably more than most people think, but still.........DO MORE!
What I don't understand is why they are not taking advantage of increased demand to expand and offer more. I know that takes time, probably more than most people think, but still.........DO MORE!
Dan Grec
Expedition Leader
I think it's worth noting the 2.8 and the new 3.0 are extremely different engines. The 2.8 is old and out-dated in comparison.
The 2.8 would require a massive amount of work to meet the upcoming 2013 emissions in North America.
As you point out, the 3.0 already passes.... and it's coming in the GC.
If they don't offer it in the Wrangler, it's simply because they chose not to, not because regulations said they can't.
There was also some talk about a variant of the diesel 3.0 that's either 2.2 or 2.4 (can't remember), but otherwise the same engine. Depending on what the decide is a good weight/power/torque/trans combination, I see no reason that engine would not work well in a Wrangler also. (And I can only assume it would also pass emissions testing, although that's more expense)
I will be watching closely to see what diesel Jeep offer in the export market when the Euro emissions standards change shortly. (is that 2014? I can't remember exactly). I think that choice will tell us a lot. I fell confident the 2.8 will not continue.
I see some major advantages.
1. Better mileage, means cheaper to drive (when diesel is the same price or only fractionally more expensive, which is true in Canada and Mexico)
2. Longer range.
3. Better drivability on the trail. A modern diesel makes gobs and gobs of torque from idle, making it a beast in low-range 4x4.
4. Better drivability on the highway - The diesels make so much torque, gearing down for a hill is unheard of, even when towing, etc.
5. Less maintenance. My personal experience with diesels in Landcruisers, Hiluxes, Landys etc in Australia is that they will run hundreds of thousands of miles more than a gasoline engine with minimal or no maintenance.
6. Less complicated. I know a modern diesel is a complicated, computer controlled beast compared to "mechanical" diesels. It's still much less complicated than a modern gas engine, like the 3.6 Pentaster, which is the alternative in 2012+. (discussing the option of going back to something simpler like the inline 4.0 or a "mechanical" diesel like the 4bt is not productive anymore. It's 2012. Emissions and CAFE standards simply will not allow it. Move on.)
-Dan
Clutch
<---Pass
What I would like to see stock from the factory is a multi-fuel diesel. That would make diesel engine more attractive to more people, able to run regular diesel, bio-diesel, and perhaps veg-oil as well.
You'll get the die hard diesel guys, and you can draw in the eco-minded folks as well. A diesel electric hybrid is probably asking too much though...might be able to fetch 70-100 mpg...so range and fuel options would be very attractive to a wide swath of the populous.
You'll get the die hard diesel guys, and you can draw in the eco-minded folks as well. A diesel electric hybrid is probably asking too much though...might be able to fetch 70-100 mpg...so range and fuel options would be very attractive to a wide swath of the populous.
Metcalf
Expedition Leader
I fully understand the advantages to the diesel engine. I drive a diesel every day and FULLY enjoy it. The main issue I see with modern diesel engines is that fuel doesn't seem to be available just over the border in Mexico. That is basically a deal killer for me from an 'expedition' use standpoint. While the emissions delete option could happen, its just lame that a new vehicle owner would have to go that route.
The existing 2.8 diesel in the current European wrangler meets 2012 Euro V diesel emissions, the same as the current 3.0 VM/Fiat engine in the Grand. The newest 2.8 has an EGR and DPF system....
I agree with Kermit on the multi-fuel thing. While I think running SVO is a stretch from the factory, being able to run 100% biodiesel would be VERY attractive to me. I think it's rather interesting that right when biodiesel was gaining a little traction in the market the new DPF and EGR systems came along and caused all kinds of issues for using high percentages of biodiesel in 2007+ diesel engines in the USA. I do wonder how much of an issue it really is? Don't they still run a fairly high percentage of Biodiesel in the EU? Or can you basically not run that in modern european vehicles either?
The existing 2.8 diesel in the current European wrangler meets 2012 Euro V diesel emissions, the same as the current 3.0 VM/Fiat engine in the Grand. The newest 2.8 has an EGR and DPF system....
I agree with Kermit on the multi-fuel thing. While I think running SVO is a stretch from the factory, being able to run 100% biodiesel would be VERY attractive to me. I think it's rather interesting that right when biodiesel was gaining a little traction in the market the new DPF and EGR systems came along and caused all kinds of issues for using high percentages of biodiesel in 2007+ diesel engines in the USA. I do wonder how much of an issue it really is? Don't they still run a fairly high percentage of Biodiesel in the EU? Or can you basically not run that in modern european vehicles either?
AEV Conversions
Observer
Actually that's not quite true and often misunderstood. While VM has made a 2.8L for years, the current 2.8L engine is totally different than the version that was in the Liberty (think same company, same displacement but unrelated) . The new engine could be made to meet the same regs as the 3.0L.
dh
Dan Grec
Expedition Leader
It seems like Ultra Low Sulfur diesel is going to be a problem in all developing and undeveloped countries for a while yet. I personally think the advantages of diesel in general outweigh the annoyance of the (required) emissions delete package.
I'm looking ahead to Euro VI, coming in 2014.
Thanks Dave, I didn't know that.
You say the new 2.8 could be made to meet the regs... do you know if it has been?
-Dan
EDIT: Added Dave's quote and my reply
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Metcalf
Expedition Leader
My current wishlist.....
-Add the long wheelbase 2-door chassis from the J8 to the lineup. With a few dealer options it could provide a utility vehicle or a pickup really easy.
-Make a nice 2-door long wheelbase hardtop with panel sides ( so I don't have to
)
-More engine options. I think the 3.6 is a big improvement, but I still would like to see the 5.7 VVT and 6.4 VVT hemi at least offered. For me, I would also like to see the diesel offered. I would be happy with the 2.8 and ecstatic about the new 3.0 V6.
-The new automatic is a BIG improvement overall. Keep it and don't do anything stupid! Giving it the ability to have true manual control over the gear selection would be a nice touch. Being able to start in 2nd or 3rd in low range could be really nice.
-Add a slightly stronger manual transmission option. I see a lot of de-rating with the current manual in other countries.
-Allow us to order only what we want. Allow us to delete the stuff we don't. It would be really nice to be able to order the Rubicon axles separate. It would be nice to be able to order the Rubicon package without the 4:1 transfer case.
-Carpet delete with a spray in liner option from the factory
-Add a heavy duty axle option. Basically let us order the J8 axles or something similar. I think as mentioned the Powerwagon axles would be GREAT in the JK. I am just about ready to start another thread on that topic I think.....I have been doing a little digging.
-Add the heavy duty frame reinforcements from the J8, or at least some of them, in the from of a heavy duty towing option on the 4-door JK. The J8 is rated to tow about 7000lbs! I think keeping the rear coils would be better, so a new coil and swaybar would probably need designed. Maybe a stronger hitch system.
enough for now....
-Add the long wheelbase 2-door chassis from the J8 to the lineup. With a few dealer options it could provide a utility vehicle or a pickup really easy.
-Make a nice 2-door long wheelbase hardtop with panel sides ( so I don't have to
)-More engine options. I think the 3.6 is a big improvement, but I still would like to see the 5.7 VVT and 6.4 VVT hemi at least offered. For me, I would also like to see the diesel offered. I would be happy with the 2.8 and ecstatic about the new 3.0 V6.
-The new automatic is a BIG improvement overall. Keep it and don't do anything stupid! Giving it the ability to have true manual control over the gear selection would be a nice touch. Being able to start in 2nd or 3rd in low range could be really nice.
-Add a slightly stronger manual transmission option. I see a lot of de-rating with the current manual in other countries.
-Allow us to order only what we want. Allow us to delete the stuff we don't. It would be really nice to be able to order the Rubicon axles separate. It would be nice to be able to order the Rubicon package without the 4:1 transfer case.
-Carpet delete with a spray in liner option from the factory
-Add a heavy duty axle option. Basically let us order the J8 axles or something similar. I think as mentioned the Powerwagon axles would be GREAT in the JK. I am just about ready to start another thread on that topic I think.....I have been doing a little digging.
-Add the heavy duty frame reinforcements from the J8, or at least some of them, in the from of a heavy duty towing option on the 4-door JK. The J8 is rated to tow about 7000lbs! I think keeping the rear coils would be better, so a new coil and swaybar would probably need designed. Maybe a stronger hitch system.
enough for now....