In search of the "perfect" camper frame

[IdaSHO]

Thanks for the response Steve.

Funny you should mention the countertop size, and the possibility of extending it over the furnace location.
I asked the wife about this just last night.... and her response was simple.

"it probably needs more cabinet space as it is!"

So I think she is okay with the countertop space. :sombrero:

And it is the same size as our current camper, and it does work great.
IMO the dining table will be utilized quite a bit during food prep and cleanup. As we currently do not have a dining table.

Im still considering FRP. But I REALLY dont like the UV problem. I really wish there was an inexpensive and readily available UV resistant FRP on the market.

Cold camping creates a big need for indoor kitchens and toilets. Beyond the obvious problems associated with trying to cook or pee in a blizzard, being able to keep the doors and windows shut is a large efficiency benefit.
Open the door once in '10 degree weather and you can basically kiss all of that warm interior air goodbye. So the furnace has to burn that much more propane to re-heat things.

I was hoping to work in a slight crown for the roof, but it creates a host of problems. Primary one being insulation. The foam insulation does not do bends very well. At all. And unless I raise the overall camper height, I would have to lower the wall height. I dont see either being an option right now. So the front roof portion will remain flat. Though it will be framed and skinned very strong, to avoid any sagging that would result in moisture ponding.

 

[RoosterBooster]

idasho
maybe one smooth big arc from front to back ?!?

thats what i`m think of doing on my rig ;


good water drainage combined with excellent aerodynamics... that shape would reduce frontal area as well as backdraft/turbulence at the rear.
i do have a roll-bender to roll the (steel or aluminum) roof corner profiles ... but i think with wood you could simply dry-bend the corner strip ... its a large radius.

regular foamed PE insulation sheets should be able to bend into that large radius (unless you plan to use the really "rigid" type... but maybe you could cut that stuff into narrow strips to follow the arc ?!? )

 

[tamangel]

rooster, is that your chassis currently? what wheelbase and IH model is that? nice rendition..

Mike

******

 

[IdaSHO]

Nice thought Rooster, although i think Id avoid it simply from a construction point of view.

LOTS of radius cuts. From interior and exterior wall covers, to overhead cabinets and doors.

I dont want to get THAT custom. :snorkel:


It looks great though.

 

[bajadulce]

Ah good point about letting the cold in and not wanting to go outside to pee in a Blizzard.

I do cook inside, but that's about it. Occasionally we wash dishes in a small tub inside if we have access to fresh water (kinda rare) but mostly dishes get washed with ocean water. Sinks require plumbing and sewage tanks etc. And those things seem to complicate a little camper, but are definitely worth it if you have the space. Fridge and stove are all I've ever equipped in campers, but I'm probably a dinosaur.

Cabinets are nice that's for sure and sounds like you are really happy with the similar layout in your current camper. And you should definitely keep the wife happy with cabinets! I've only owned little itty bitty campers and always was struggling with trying to maintain an open feel to an otherwise cramped environment. The wall of that cabinet will offer a lot of options as well. Magazine rack, some shelves, or whatever else fits the bill. Gonna be nice.

That roof rooster posted is pretty slick. A lot of modern RV's these days seem to have some sort of bubble shape over the cab which probably helps in terms of both headroom and a small foil. But campers have had worry free flat roofs for years and I agree, as long as you have a solid support system to avoid any potential sagging, it would seem the easiest. I have a section of flat roof a top my own camper.

@FRP and UV resistance:
My own camper shell is made of quite a bit of exposed FRP (entire roof) and it has held up to a little over 3 years of daily California sun without any signs of wear. Don't think it's ever gotten below 40 degrees here tho. Of course it was never left bare and was primer and painted almost from day one. I am no scientist, but it seems to be holding up pretty well in my application and my environment. It sure is cheap and readily available at your local box store!

Look forward to reading about future design elements.
Steve

 

[IdaSHO]

what kind of paint are you using on the FRP steve?

 

[bajadulce]

I'll disclose my paint source only if you promise not to laugh!

I tend to be a total cheapskate as well as a bit lazy when it comes to shopping. I hate getting on phones or looking around for that "perfect" material for any project. Yes, I had looked into marine paint online and some other things, but ultimately just ended up using a gallon of Rustoleum Rusty Metal Primer as a base and Rustoleum High Gloss Metal paint. Both cans bought at Home Depot for around 40 bucks each if I recall. The girl at the paint counter was great and she added a few drops of tint into the pure white paint from one of the chip samples on the wall. I believe it was a Martha Stewart color lol! Anywho, what's nice is I have a formula and can easily duplicate the paint. (which I needed when I redid my door. Perfect match!)

For application, I used a smooth weenie roller and did 2 thin coats. Paint this glossy is sorta self leveling and was surprised how glossy the final product turned out. It's not showroom quality shine, but hides my less than showroom quality bodywork as well! Let's face it, campers are gonna get banged up scrapping tree branches and just general road abuse. So having something you can easily touch up/match is a plus.

Maybe you'll want a little more quality, but that's what I did and am pretty floored with the end result.

EDIT:
Wet sanded the brown metal primer with 400 grit paper btw before applying paint.

 

[IdaSHO]

Well, maybe I need to keep FRP on my list of possible exterior sidings.

Im more worried about actual paint bonding than anything. finish/color/sheen isnt necessarily important. If a quality primer is all that is needed to get a good paint bond, then I think I should look at FRP further.

I thought I had a hit when I looked at FRP the first time. Crane Composites offers a good variety of colors. But then I noticed the UV problem.

Thanks for the info Steve.

 

[BCHauler]

I really enjoyed your Bell camper reno, and I'm watching your new camper planning with interest. I've been looking at your layout extensively and really like it a lot. I would be perfectly happy with that exact layout except for one modification. I have kids so I would make the rear dinette convertable to bunk beds, but thats me and my needs

I do have a question about your layout choice though. I'm curious why you have the fridge opposite the kitchen? Wouldn't it be easier to have all of the propane powered units in the same place on the same side? Is it a weight distribution issue? Also, what are the dimensions of the upper bed?

Looking forward to this project as it moves forward.

Todd (thanks for the response to my furnace pm btw)

 

[IdaSHO]

Hi Todd, glad I could help with the furnace questions.

Good question about the fridge location.

Ultimately the fridge location was determined by size constraints. The overall width of the fridge + countertop length + rear fold-out bed didnt fit. The furnace is considerably narrower, and made it all work.
The current camper is oriented the same way, fridge across from the counter. And it works quite well.

Originally I was compelled to locate all propane appliances close to the tank. Seemed like the obvious thing to do.

But once I started working out layouts and simple space constraints, things started moving around. The propane tank has moved, hopefully for the last time.
I moved it from under the counter to the very front pass side. This opened up the space under the counter for wet (outside) storage as well as some good drawer space for inside.
The wet storage will house things like spare parts, fluids, etc. I might even decide to place the house batteries there, depending upon weight.

The only drawbacks moving the propane tank is a reduction in water tank volume. I was looking at 15 gallons or so, and this drops it to less than 12.
it also increases the distance I have to plumb for furnace and propane lines. But that is easy stuff.

Ive also made the decision to ditch the LP fridge idea. Im going 12vDC only. This eliminates the need for an externally vented fridge, but requires a larger house battery bank.

The cab-over fits a 54x75 RV mattress, with a bit of room on all sides.


My dual pane windows arrived today. They look GREAT!!:ylsmoke:

Ive also got 3 compartment doors on order now. Two 20x15 (for fuel fill/ battery bank) and one 14x28 for the propane storage.

Here are the latest drawings.

 

[bftank]

regarding paint. thoughts on using something like linex or als liner? excellant bonding, abrasion and uv resistant. repairable.


something else i thought of while reading through this thread, it might give you a chuckle, but here it is.

i've been doing a lot of research lately on how passive solar houses work, it seems the primary concern when heating a passive solar house is having mass that can be heated from inside the house and insulating the mass from the outside of the house to keep the heat in.

so the thought occurred to me that you have done the best you can to keep the cold out, what could be done with thermal mass type objects to keep the heat in and what could you use.

just brainstorming here, so bear with me.

-plywood floor with 1" foam slab on top,with concrete board and a black tile. the concrete board and tile would add mass.

-using concrete board to duct your forced air heat.

-using concrete board on the lower half of your walls.


the downsides obviously would be the added weight. the idea being that the concrete board and tile are very dense, creating a slow heat sink, that releases just as slow. allowing you to burn less fuel to keep your camper warm. if you could place your windows so the sun hit the tile that would help as well.

maybe you would have to do all of these to see some performance gains. dunno never done it before. just an interesting thought i wanted to pass along.

and keeping mind the more windows you have the more heat loss you have. windows are horrible insulators.

let me know if you think these are unreasonable ideas or not. i am curious.

 

[bftank]

with the fridge not being externally vented will it have to work harder staying cold? i am thinking the venting might have the added bonus of keeping the fridge cool without the use of propane in the colder climates.

 

[IdaSHO]

Research has shown that propane fridges just are not efficient as I would like.

That, and a 12V system reduces the need for propane refills, as it provides multiple ways to recharge the system.

regarding paint. thoughts on using something like linex or als liner? excellant bonding, abrasion and uv resistant. repairable.

Ive already decided. Last summer I re-did the back deck on our home with a new product I had been itching to try for a while.

I plan on using it for the exterior walls, and the Gaco-ROOF for the roof.

I transformed this sad deck

into....

this....

And Ive had the product on the "potentially good enough for camper exterior" ever since. So Ive been watching it VERY closely for the past few months. And it has done amazing.

something else i thought of while reading through this thread, it might give you a chuckle, but here it is.


i've been doing a lot of research lately on how passive solar houses work,
...snip...

Our home is a passive solar home. Warm in the winter (when the sun us out:snorkel and cool in the summer (due to large eves that keep direct sunlight out of the home).

Ive been in the construction industry my entire life, and I could go on and on about this.... But insulating and heating a camper is much different than insulating and heating a home. A home can make use of thermal mass, as you have predicable and dependable direct sunlight to soak your thermal mass.

Look at a camper like you are looking at an ice-chest, and you will be far better off. An R-value is a simple way of rating how resistant a substrate (or wall) is to thermal transfer. Just ignore sunlight as a factor, and insulate best you can. A higher R-value will provide for a much more efficient camper. Which means, cooler in the summer, and warmer in the winter.

 

[tamangel]

agreed..passive solar would not work in a camper environment. passive solar homes have literally ton's of rock or cement to hold heat for a long while. Cement board just doesn't have the mass to hold heat more than a short period of time. Was it someone on this site that was doing hydronic (under floor water tube heating) piping for heat.. ? maybe another site.. Insulation is your best bet.. SIP concept or spray-in insulation may work..watch for thermal bridging issues also..

Mike

 

[skipperted]

Underfloor heating

Hello, just to let you know that underfloor heating works very well, it's now -12c outside and my underfloor heating is keeping my feet nice and warm. It runs from a eberspatcher 5 kw hydronic diesel burner, or when on hook up an electric boiler ,that will also heat radiators and or hot water,and or the engine cooling system, and or the hot air blowers. Each system controlled by valves at a manifold so I can use all or any one system at any time. The underfloor pipes are multi runs of 8mm copper fitted under a thin metal plate. The wooden planks are glued to the top of the plate. Below the metal plate and pipes is sprayed polyurethane foam insulation 40mm thick . I doesn't get too hot as the wood is quite thick, but walking around a warm floor is luxury !
My habitation box is made with a lower steel frame with a bowed roof that's made with laminated wooden beams. The use of wood and steel works well for me. I shall be building a new truck soon and will still keep to this method. It's quick, easy and cheap. I like the look of that paint, great deck, nice view.