INEOS Grenadier

[nickw]

The footwell intrusion on the right side is not to accommodate the DPF tank in the diesel, it is there to accommodate part of the engine exhaust system.

I don't think there is any debate as to why Ineos chose the BMW shifter - it was the easiest and probably cheapest thing to do. Who knows - maybe there was also pressure from BMW to keep their shifter.

I'm not convinced, however, that the only other option was to develop a shifter in-house (which would have added cost to the vehicle's development, and hence, to the final price tag). Why not use the Jeep shifter that is currently paired with similar versions of the ZF transmission in the JL Wrangler and the JT Gladiator? Of course - I have no idea what those negotiations would have looked like, nor do I know anything about how shifters pair with engines. Is the shifter just transmission-specific, or is it also engine-specific?

But my opinion on this is pretty strong: I don't think the BMW shifter is a good match for an off-road 4x4, nor do I think it matches the ethos of the Grenadier. If you haven't driven a Grenadier, and you are seriously interested in buying one, I'd suggest you test drive a BMW X5 to make sure you'd be okay with the shifter. You might love it, you might hate it - we're all different!

Note: the Jeep JL and JT have two ZF transmissions. The 3.6 Pentastar (gas) gets the 8HP50 while the 3.0 Ecodiesel get the 8HP75. So these transmissions are not identical to those found in the Grenadier (8HP51 and 8HP76). See Grenadier specs below:

View attachment 775584

User name checks out

We've been debating the HP51 vs HP76 over the last few pages.

My guess / hunch is that ZF works with OEM's to develop things like shifters with them appropriate for the application....it's proprietary and Jeep likely owns that design as does BMW. You want a BMW engine/trans, you get their engineered shifter solution. We've had (2) X5's over the last 15 years going back to 2008, we've liked them, it's been a very sim shifter....zero issues with either beyond little annoyances, although our current one is having issues with the e-parking brake not turning off, so it's stuck in lock and car won't move! Got replaced, 2 weeks later it keeps doing it, it's a bit of a safety thing, if the misses is out and about or at a rest stop on the way over the mountain she may be stuck....workaround is simple, just don't use it.

 

[SkiWill]

So when the grenadier's seatbelt-linked immobilization system breaks...what is that like? Is it a case of pulling a fuse or twisting together a couple of wires and we're on our way? Is it a case of "disconnect the battery and wait a few minutes for things to clear out, then reconnect and reboot"? Or is it a case of "Bring it to be inspected so a technician with BMW-proprietary software can diagnose and effect repair via flashing the ECU with an updated software suite, and in the meantime you can use a rental"?

From what I've seen on other vehicles with things like the "bonnet" or hood closure sensors, you have to jumper the sensor by pulling it out and sticking a wire in both ports to complete the circuit and then you can be on your way again.

Honestly I don't think it's that big of a deal and will very rarely break. It all goes back to understanding the vehicle and how it works, and to your point, how it breaks. I just don't see how the Grenadier will be dramatically different from other vehicles other than the body on frame and live axle architecture when it comes to computer controls, safety requirements, etc. that are a part of all modern vehicles. Sure there will be fewer ECMs for power seats, climate control, fancy trail cameras, etc. but when those break, they're annoying and may require proprietary service, but they won't leave you stranded. And do they even fail that often?

Hopefully Ineos will be more open source, but the critical drive components are completely BMW, so we may be in the take it to someone with proprietary BMW software access for certain things. They still haven't published the much advertised "will be available to the public" service manual even though the first deliveries have been completed to answer those questions.

I mean a modern Airbus has thousands of ECMs and and a Sopwith Camel has 0 and I know which is more likely to fall out of the sky.

 

[stickshifter]

I mean a modern Airbus has thousands of ECMs and and a Sopwith Camel has 0 and I know which is more likely to fall out of the sky.

The Airbus? As I recall, Snoopy only crashed after getting shot-up by The Red Barron ?

 

[stickshifter]

Some good explanations for why Ineos had to go with the BMW shifter - thanks folks! I had assumed as much, but thanks for the detailed explanations.

It is still a real bummer for me, and knowing why they had to do it doesn't change my dissatisfaction. I think I'd be okay with it in a sedan, or something like an X5, but in an off-roader - not so much.

For example, if you put the car in Neutral, and then open the door, this BMW shifter will shift to Park automatically. It thinks it is smarter than you. Why does that suck? Well, when you are winching, you want to be in Neutral - not in Park. I'm not sure why, because in forty years of driving I've never owned an automatic transmission. With a manual transmission, of course you are in Neutral when winching. But with an auto you are also supposed to be in Neutral (something about not loading up the Park gear - its bad for the transmission). You can do a work-around in some circumstances: after you set things up, you could get back in the car, put the BMW shifter in Neutral, and then use the winch with the handbrake pulled up, and - if you want - with your foot on the brake pedal. But there are times you winch from outside the vehicle. What then? Maybe Ineos has thought of this, and maybe "Off-Road Mode" disables the feature that automatically puts the truck in Park when you open the door. But come on, so much complexity for something so simple. I want a car that does what I tell it to, which is why I drive manual transmissions.

I suppose my problem is one of expectations. When I first heard about the Grenadier, and its mission to be a modern take on an older design, I generated expectations as to what that would mean. I didn't expect a 70-Series Landcruiser - that would never get cleared for sale in the U.S. or the EU. But I did expect it to be less nanny-ish than what we are starting to see (shifting to Park when you open the door, refusing to drive unless the seatbelt is fastened). For me, this stuff is probably a deal-breaker. But that's just me.

 

[SkiWill]

Some good explanations for why Ineos had to go with the BMW shifter - thanks folks! I had assumed as much, but thanks for the detailed explanations.

It is still a real bummer for me, and knowing why they had to do it doesn't change my dissatisfaction. I think I'd be okay with it in a sedan, or something like an X5, but in an off-roader - not so much.

For example, if you put the car in Neutral, and then open the door, this BMW shifter will shift to Park automatically. It thinks it is smarter than you. Why does that suck? Well, when you are winching, you want to be in Neutral - not in Park. I'm not sure why, because in forty years of driving I've never owned an automatic transmission. With a manual transmission, of course you are in Neutral when winching. But with an auto you are also supposed to be in Neutral (something about not loading up the Park gear - its bad for the transmission). You can do a work-around in some circumstances: after you set things up, you could get back in the car, put the BMW shifter in Neutral, and then use the winch with the handbrake pulled up, and - if you want - with your foot on the brake pedal. But there are times you winch from outside the vehicle. What then? Maybe Ineos has thought of this, and maybe "Off-Road Mode" disables the feature that automatically puts the truck in Park when you open the door. But come on, so much complexity for something so simple. I want a car that does what I tell it to, which is why I drive manual transmissions.

I suppose my problem is one of expectations. When I first heard about the Grenadier, and its mission to be a modern take on an older design, I generated expectations as to what that would mean. I didn't expect a 70-Series Landcruiser - that would never get cleared for sale in the U.S. or the EU. But I did expect it to be less nanny-ish than what we are starting to see (shifting to Park when you open the door, refusing to drive unless the seatbelt is fastened). For me, this stuff is probably a deal-breaker. But that's just me.

I think if you have it any gear other than neutral the BMW will shift into park if you open the door. My wife's 2013 Mercedes would as well. That's a safety feature, and while not great for off road, probably will actually save someone's life. Probably a kid's or innocent bystander, so in my opinion it is worth it. I would say that the BMW shifter is probably smarter than at least 95% of BMW drivers myself included if I were to drive a BMW.

If nanny-ish "features" are a deal breaker, then I think it's probably not worth looking at any newly manufactured vehicle the Grenadier included. I don't particularly like the automatic crash avoidance that is soon to become a requirement on all new vehicles but in the greater scheme, it will probably save lives so I'll learn to deal with it. I also won't have a choice.

I also greatly prefer a manual transmission and a more manual vehicle in general, but those types of vehicles are largely no longer in production. My high school math teacher took a 30+ year old Series II Land Rover and did a nut and bolt restoration and then drove it from Maine to the North Slope of Alaska and then down to the southern end of Argentina back before overland was a thing nearly 30 years ago. So taking an old purely mechanical vehicle and making it reliable enough for an epic trip can certainly be done. He still drives it today, but never gets anywhere quick and if someone crashes into him, that'll be it. And it certainly dispensed with any nanny features including the synchronizers in 1st and 2nd gear.

EDIT: Just thought of this. If you were to need to winch the Grenadier in neutral, simply shift the transfer case into neutral instead of the transmission. See, BMW shifters are smarter than me since it took me that long to think of the solution....

 

[ABBB]

I may have missed this question being asked or answered, but is anyone certain this seatbelt sensor/immobilizer will be on North American versions of the vehicle? EU and NA have different safety standards. For instance, the steel bumper on NA IGs is not available in the UK (perhaps also the EU?) due to regs. Is it possible that the seatbelt sensor is reg in EU but not in NA? Or Aus?


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[stickshifter]

I may have missed this question being asked or answered, but is anyone certain this seatbelt sensor/immobilizer will be on North American versions of the vehicle? EU and NA have different safety standards. For instance, the steel bumper on NA IGs is not available in the UK (perhaps also the EU?) due to regs. Is it possible that the seatbelt sensor is reg in EU but not in NA? Or Aus?


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Good question. No - it is not certain that the seatbelt immobilizer will be in the North American version. I don't think anything is certain until the configurator goes live sometime in May.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

I mean a modern Airbus has thousands of ECMs and and a Sopwith Camel has 0 and I know which is more likely to fall out of the sky.

There's also a reason why you used Airbus in that joke instead of Boeing but your point is well (and humourously!) taken!!

But jokes aside you've identified my exact wish - the bonnet sensor that can be jumped with a twisty wire is a good robust design of a feature that may be legally required in terms of the existence of the function, but its design makes it very easy to fix on the side of the trail with basic tools and knowledge. Motorcycle kick stands are like that - there's a sensor that won't let the bike start with the kickstand down and the clutch not in unless it's in Neutral. The switch is in a bad spot for off road, but cut the wires going into the switch and twist them together is a good enough solution to get you home (or in my case, to continue riding with that "temp" repair 8 years later!!). Hopefully this seatbelt switch isn't a problem ever, but if it is I hope it's like these basic switches we are discussing.

Good question. No - it is not certain that the seatbelt immobilizer will be in the North American version. I don't think anything is certain until the configurator goes live sometime in May.

I'd go so far as to say nothing will be certain till we see the workshop manuals. Ineos has not developed a reputation for having the most accurate info on their website thus far!

@stickshifter
stick, re: seat belt, apparently if in Off Road Mode the seat belt safety is disabled. Sorry if that has been covered already. Doesn't help your wife scenario but might in others.

re: shift to Park. Apparently (per that other forum) motor can be turned off and immediately restarted in Neutral and then driver can exit car with trans staying in N - am assuming the motor will still be running. Called (BMW) car wash mode.

re: Parking Pawl. I'd venture most tow trucks winch while the tow truck trans is in Park, I have for light duty (re spooling for eg) but it's prob a good idea while winching to be in N and have the winching vehicle anchored to the frame. But obviously thats not always going to be done.

When/if you do get an Auto you'll have fun with the parking pawl. Park on a hill (Colorado ?) and the vehicle might creep and load up on the pawl. Come back from your hike and you sometimes have a heck of a time moving the shifter out of Park. Might be different with these newer electronic shifters, IDK. But something to be aware of.

Have read of folks needing to winch the vehicle first to unload the pawl. Some trans have a manual pawl unlock.

Safest to chock the wheels first, then put in park (at least on the Fords I've owned) but again, that's not always going to happen.

Thanks for your write up and thoughts. I'm looking forward to the chance to drive a Gren myself. Already know I'm not gonna like that foot rest !

I don't know if I love "car wash mode" as a process but I guess I can live with it! That's good information, thanks for sharing it.

In BC/Alberta, best practice on hills is to come to a stop in your spot, then activate the hand brake/"emergency" brake/parking brake (the third pedal in NA automatics lol) which essentially serves as a wheel chock; then shift into park with the trans to prevent overstressing that pawl. I think it still exists in modern autos but I honestly don't know!!

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

I thought you were on VI ?, If you're from BC, driving a Ford with a drum in hat and think that the parking brake will act as a wheel chock, then you must be living in Hope !

I'm only a recent Island transplant and have been blessed with disc brakes all around since I moved West (AB) about 13 years ago, so I've managed to avoid the "blessing" of rusty e-brakes on drums

 

[stickshifter]

@stickshifter
stick, re: seat belt, apparently if in Off Road Mode the seat belt safety is disabled. Sorry if that has been covered already. Doesn't help your wife scenario but might in others.

re: shift to Park. Apparently (per that other forum) motor can be turned off and immediately restarted in Neutral and then driver can exit car with trans staying in N - am assuming the motor will still be running. Called (BMW) car wash mode.

re: Parking Pawl. I'd venture most tow trucks winch while the tow truck trans is in Park, I have for light duty (re spooling for eg) but it's prob a good idea while winching to be in N and have the winching vehicle anchored to the frame. But obviously thats not always going to be done.

When/if you do get an Auto you'll have fun with the parking pawl. Park on a hill (Colorado ?) and the vehicle might creep and load up on the pawl. Come back from your hike and you sometimes have a heck of a time moving the shifter out of Park. Might be different with these newer electronic shifters, IDK. But something to be aware of.

Have read of folks needing to winch the vehicle first to unload the pawl. Some trans have a manual pawl unlock.

Safest to chock the wheels first, then put in park (at least on the Fords I've owned) but again, that's not always going to happen.

Thanks for your write up and thoughts. I'm looking forward to the chance to drive a Gren myself. Already know I'm not gonna like that foot rest !

Great info. Thanks for your reply!

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Folks -

Ineos has released the Hard Way Home video. For those unaware, this was a bit of a marketing contest Ineos put together where 3 lucky winners took delivery of their Grenadier in a remote location and got to drive it home in epic fashion. The delivery point was in remote-ish Morocco, and it's a great video worth watching with some good discussion of it over at theIneosForum, from that discussion came the YouTube channel of one of the Hard Way Home winners. He's one of the first in the world with a Grenadier and his videos are pretty fluff-free and grenadier focused:

Channel Link: https://www.youtube.com/@grenadier_exploring

And some videos:

 

[ABBB]

$90k USD…


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[Grassland]

91k CAD, built a base model with some useful options, 99,900 basically.
Domestic half ton for 64k is a steal in comparison.

 

[utherjorge]

And a huge, gigantic, enormous miss in all this news: where is it going to be serviced?

 

[ABBB]

And a huge, gigantic, enormous miss in all this news: where is it going to be serviced?

They did release a map with little IG symbols on locations of service centers/dealers, with word of more info to come on a broader service network. Nothing specific was announced about the pins on the map though, whether these are dealerships or service stations, and no word about dealer markup on top of pricing from what I’ve seen. They certainly like being selective and vague about much of the process, while exclaiming their interest in transparency about the mechanics of the vehicle itself. Cool to know about the nuts and bolts of the build, would be cool to know more about ownership though too in the interest of making an informed decision.


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