It’s Here! Jeep Wrangler with Diesel News

[Dan Grec]

Dan I have 17 years of diesel experience with one of the largest diesel manufacturers in the world.

I currently own a 2008 Grand Cherokee with the OM642 and I am a big fan of GDE. I have over 40,000 miles with their tune and I have gotten better MPG and no mechanical issues! I also just bought a 2012 Ram Cummins. 2012 was the last year with no DEF. I have 2 diesels cars and 1 diesel tractor and not one of them has DEF. I hope you see the trend!

Since we introduced DEF to the diesel equation back in 2010, DEF related issues, sensors, ATD issues etc quickly became our #1 warranty issue and my customers have backed that trend up. Also keep in mind that modern diesels have very low tolerances when it comes to fuel quality. When we see injector issues at a customer the first thing we do is find out who is providing the fuel, biodiesel content, water , DEF quality etc. As you know the quality of diesel fuel in 3rd world countries is questionable at best. If we are questioning fuel suppliers here you will run into issues with a DEF equipped diesel engine.

Can you run DEF engines in a 3rd world?...for sure but you are playing the odds. Frame mounted filters will help but they are not the bullet proof. We put Davco frame mounted filters standard and still see fuel pump and injector failures. Also remember that DEF is generally not filtered and if not a good quality or not the correct water % it will hurt the system.

That being said I would look for a pre DEF diesel powered vehicle. Also you have clearly proven in your travels that gas power is more than adequate from a range standpoint and a modern gas engine can eat 3rd world gasoline without any issues.

Scott

Thanks for all the info and expertise Scott, I really appreciate it.

I understand that I would be running a risk with such a modern diesel engine in the undeveloped world.
I'm thinking of:
* Deleting the DPF and DEF from the computer
* Removing the EGR.
* Frame mounted filters like we discussed (probably two stage)
* Straight piping the exhaust to remove the DEF/sensor stuff.

Even with all of that, do you still think fuel pump and injector failures are a real possibility in only ~50k miles?

You raise a good point about gas engines, and to be honest a few German Overland friends have come to the same conclusion - modern gas engines might just be better for global overlanding than modern diesels.
My main pain point is the mileage - I'm just so fed up with getting ~16.5mpg. It means I have to carry A LOT of fuel, and it means I have to spend A LOT of money on that fuel.
I'm entirely ready for a vehicle that gets ~30mpg.

(For anyone that thinks that's impossible - my friends in Australia have a diesel Izuzu D-MAX and have driven around Australia multiple times towing a bad-ass off-road camper. They've been up to cape york, the canning, the gibb river road, simpson desert, etc, etc.
while towing the trailer, they average 8L/100km, which is 29.4 US MPG. - that's over something like 100,000 miles.)

So they use close to half the fuel I do.

-Dan

 

[SSF556]

Thanks for all the info and expertise Scott, I really appreciate it.

I understand that I would be running a risk with such a modern diesel engine in the undeveloped world.
I'm thinking of:
* Deleting the DPF and DEF from the computer
* Removing the EGR.
* Frame mounted filters like we discussed (probably two stage)
* Straight piping the exhaust to remove the DEF/sensor stuff.

Even with all of that, do you still think fuel pump and injector failures are a real possibility in only ~50k miles?

You raise a good point about gas engines, and to be honest a few German Overland friends have come to the same conclusion - modern gas engines might just be better for global overlanding than modern diesels.
My main pain point is the mileage - I'm just so fed up with getting ~16.5mpg. It means I have to carry A LOT of fuel, and it means I have to spend A LOT of money on that fuel.
I'm entirely ready for a vehicle that gets ~30mpg.

(For anyone that thinks that's impossible - my friends in Australia have a diesel Izuzu D-MAX and have driven around Australia multiple times towing a bad-ass off-road camper. They've been up to cape york, the canning, the gibb river road, simpson desert, etc, etc.
while towing the trailer, they average 8L/100km, which is 29.4 US MPG. - that's over something like 100,000 miles.)

So they use close to half the fuel I do.

-Dan

Hey Dan even with DPF and DEF deletes yes there is still the possibility of fuel related issues. Remember those components...injectors and fuel pumps are designed for ULSD.

Deleting is the way to go to eliminate other issues.

24-25 mpg is obviously an advantage of diesel. In regards to actual fossil fuels used diesel wins.

 

[luthj]

30mpg is pretty unlikely with a heavy brick shaped 4x4.

High sulfur vs low sulfur content has pretty minimal affect on the fuel as far as the pumps and injectors are concerned. In fact sulfur compounds improve fuel lubricity. Now other contaminates, poor lubricity, etc which sometimes come with crap fuel (this also coincides with very high sulfur content usually), is the problem.

Sulfur compounds can increase dissolved water in the fuel, no to be confused with emulsified water.

There are some high efficiency turbo gasoline powerplants out there. Not sure what ends up in 4x4s though.

High sulfur fuels produce a lot more particulate, and will also generate larger soot particles. This tends to plug up EGR passages, swirl valves, DPF, etc, much faster.
High sulfur fuels contaminate/deplete oils much more quickly. Plan on cutting the OCI in half for fuel with more than 200ppm sulfur.

Personally, I don't think the risk is worth it for remote travel. When one injector sticks open and nukes the engine. When the HPFP can't make pressure. When your fuel filter is clogged with microbial debris. When water in the fuel erodes the volume control solenoid seat, when high leakback means no hot starts.

Removing the emissions gear helps quite a bit, but it doesn't eliminate all the vulnerabilities of a current gen common rail diesel. Now the first and second gen common rails? Those are a bit more tolerant, but they are all at least 13 years old at this point.

 

[Dan Grec]

30mpg is pretty unlikely with a heavy brick shaped 4x4.

High sulfur vs low sulfur content has pretty minimal affect on the fuel as far as the pumps and injectors are concerned. In fact sulfur compounds improve fuel lubricity. Now other contaminates, poor lubricity, etc which sometimes come with crap fuel (this also coincides with very high sulfur content usually), is the problem.

Sulfur compounds can increase dissolved water in the fuel, no to be confused with emulsified water.

There are some high efficiency turbo gasoline powerplants out there. Not sure what ends up in 4x4s though.

High sulfur fuels produce a lot more particulate, and will also generate larger soot particles. This tends to plug up EGR passages, swirl valves, DPF, etc, much faster.
High sulfur fuels contaminate/deplete oils much more quickly. Plan on cutting the OCI in half for fuel with more than 200ppm sulfur.

Personally, I don't think the risk is worth it for remote travel. When one injector sticks open and nukes the engine. When the HPFP can't make pressure. When your fuel filter is clogged with microbial debris. When water in the fuel erodes the volume control solenoid seat, when high leakback means no hot starts.

Removing the emissions gear helps quite a bit, but it doesn't eliminate all the vulnerabilities of a current gen common rail diesel. Now the first and second gen common rails? Those are a bit more tolerant, but they are all at least 13 years old at this point.

Thanks for all the info, I really appreciate it.

Like I gave in my example, I think 30mpg (or close) is very possible.
Also:

Chevy's 3.0L Duramax 1500 Has Better Fuel Economy Than A Honda Accord - Expedition Portal

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[dreadlocks]

27mpg is what I get in my 2.5ton AWD 3.0L Diesel w/a tire on the roof.. 29mpg is what i was originally seeing w/street tires and no roof rack.. I'm hoping a tune and delete will bring me up to 30 again.

I'd say its a fairly reasonable guess, but if you put big 37in tires on it.. all bets are off, for sure city FE will be terrible getting all that mass rotating at every stop and lifting it is going to increase drag substantially.

My City FE went from about 24-25mpg to 19-21mpg just with the weight of OEM OD AT's.

 

[billiebob]

Of course you cannot get it in a manual transmission

Of course not. Soon nothing will come with a clutch cuz computers cannot control yer foot and our brains cannot compete with a computer programmed to minimize emissions and maximize mileage. But expect the diesel to die soon too.

 

[billiebob]

I just went from 17mpg with 33x10.50s to 22mpg with 7.50R16s.

All else is equal. But what we do???? If you want great gas mileage WE need to throw out almost every thing we do to be part of the big boy school..... and we need to build to a new goal based on performance, including fuel economy instead of ego. 50 years ago even LeMans had a fuel economy component. Indy and NASCAR try to limit speed by rationing gas. One of these days 4 wheelers will step into the new world order too.

Big tires have a very narrow purpose. Great for floataion. Great aired down for traction climbing a waterfall. But hurting performance everywhere else. These 7.50R16s are the best tires for snow, slush, standing water, rain loose gravel. I also get the best ride I've ever had in a Wrangler. AND in the forest, they really do work better than floatation tires.

 

[billiebob]

An interesting surprise going from 10.50s to 7.50s. From 33s to 31s. Rolling resistance dropped so far that I find myself suddenly hitting the brakes to stop as I coast up to a red light. It is amazing how much farther I coast. I had 35s for less than a year and I could not sell them fast enough. With 35s... I got 250km from a tank. I now get almost 500km from a tank of gas.

 

[billiebob]

modern gas engines might just be better for global overlanding than modern diesels

yes, they are better

So many cities are banning diesel engines. The writing is on the wall. Diesels are history. Gas will follow. And we will be driving electric 4x4s by the time I die. There will be some die hard countries, like Canada and the USA, but the 3rd world is already embracing the change. China and India alone, have a quarter of the world population and are leading the development of alternate energy sources. We are destined to become the 3rd world over the next 50 years.

 

[F350joe]

Diesel maybe dated sooner than we think. An electric Jeep makes a lot of sense. I wouldn’t mind a diesel gladiator now though. https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-semi-1-million-mile-battery/amp/

 

[Patrick-A51]

I wish I would have gotten a Jeep Wrangler rather than our Jeep Grand Cherokee.

 

[SSF556]

yes, they are better

So many cities are banning diesel engines. The writing is on the wall. Diesels are history. Gas will follow. And we will be driving electric 4x4s by the time I die. There will be some die hard countries, like Canada and the USA, but the 3rd world is already embracing the change. China and India alone, have a quarter of the world population and are leading the development of alternate energy sources. We are destined to become the 3rd world over the next 50 years.

I have typed like 3 responses to this and I delete everyone....all I can do is shake my head!

 

[SSF556]

Diesel maybe dated sooner than we think. An electric Jeep makes a lot of sense. I wouldn’t mind a diesel gladiator now though. https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-semi-1-million-mile-battery/amp/

I have been behind the scenes and hands on with electric vehicles....no one including Tesla or Daimler is anywhere near putting out a vehicle for general public use. Pricing alone will be the deal killer.

Let me put it this way....people complain daily about the price of a gas powered Wrangler...take that price and multiple it by 3 to 4.....in the case of an electric semi....take the current price which is around $125,000 for a tractor and multiple that by 6-7.....

 

[Justincredible]

I think your numbers are a bit inflated there.
Maybe add $10k, but that's only for now while electric vehicles are a niche market. As they become more popular, they will become more affordable.
Even today you can get a Model3 and Leaf with 200+ miles of range for under $40k.

 

[jadmt]

An interesting surprise going from 10.50s to 7.50s. From 33s to 31s. Rolling resistance dropped so far that I find myself suddenly hitting the brakes to stop as I coast up to a red light. It is amazing how much farther I coast. I had 35s for less than a year and I could not sell them fast enough. With 35s... I got 250km from a tank. I now get almost 500km from a tank of gas.

I have had 3 jk 4 doors and a 1 jk 2 door al with 3.6 and auto and on the 4 doors i have always gotten close to 400 miles on a tank and on the two door over 320. That is with 35's and speedo corrected. 150 miles on a tank is crazy bad. that is like 8mpg. I am not buying you get 2X the mpg under the same conditions going from 33 to 31. my stock 2013 sport came with 225/75-16 which are like 29's and never got that much of a loss when I went to 285/75-16 which are like true 32's. Something else is going on if you got 2x the mpg.