Leaf Suspension Tech - Planning for my 04' Tundra
- Thread starter rickashay
- Start date
zidaro
Explorer
I read thru this, but may have missed a couple things. sorry if ii did. heres some of my thoughts.
your current setup. Your just looking for more articulation?
you said your shocks are limiting your down travel by over 1-1/2" ? thats a lot.
you said your tires rub on the fenders at full articulation? (this is a very different value than full compression. Full compression is axle compressed to bumps or whatever its hitting both sides at same time. Full articulation is one side at full droop and other side compressed.)
So.
your current setup would be much better if you added bumpstops that prevented your tires from eating your fenders. If you don't want to limit the travel, well then you are cutting your fenders- simple as that.
If you did this AND added the correct length shocks for your spring travel, you would be taking full advantage of your current setup.
long travel, SUA, shackle flips, etc.. are big changes. Awesome, but big.
you stated goals are to increase Wt.cap. and travel.
longer springs will increase travel. this is easy. talk with a spring mfg. relocate rear hangers with longer springs you've had built custom. Or you go SUA which is essentially a longer spring with larger arch over the same distance.
fwiw- all toyota leafs are same width. from 81hilux-2010 tundras. you can Frankenstein leaf packs together to get the ride and ht. your looking for. i slipped a couple old yota leafs i had laying around into my rear '10 Tundra ICON mini pack to get a little different ride.
incr. in wt. carrying- HD springs will be stiffer and REALLY stiff with your truck unloaded. Trade-offs. if your always loaded then HD springs are great. Otherwise, the airbag setup gives you options. I just added the daystar cradles to my current airbags and so far i am loving it. I have a build on expo- 10 tundra crewmax - if you want to follow my thoughts on it.
your current setup. Your just looking for more articulation?
you said your shocks are limiting your down travel by over 1-1/2" ? thats a lot.
you said your tires rub on the fenders at full articulation? (this is a very different value than full compression. Full compression is axle compressed to bumps or whatever its hitting both sides at same time. Full articulation is one side at full droop and other side compressed.)
So.
your current setup would be much better if you added bumpstops that prevented your tires from eating your fenders. If you don't want to limit the travel, well then you are cutting your fenders- simple as that.
If you did this AND added the correct length shocks for your spring travel, you would be taking full advantage of your current setup.
long travel, SUA, shackle flips, etc.. are big changes. Awesome, but big.
you stated goals are to increase Wt.cap. and travel.
longer springs will increase travel. this is easy. talk with a spring mfg. relocate rear hangers with longer springs you've had built custom. Or you go SUA which is essentially a longer spring with larger arch over the same distance.
fwiw- all toyota leafs are same width. from 81hilux-2010 tundras. you can Frankenstein leaf packs together to get the ride and ht. your looking for. i slipped a couple old yota leafs i had laying around into my rear '10 Tundra ICON mini pack to get a little different ride.
incr. in wt. carrying- HD springs will be stiffer and REALLY stiff with your truck unloaded. Trade-offs. if your always loaded then HD springs are great. Otherwise, the airbag setup gives you options. I just added the daystar cradles to my current airbags and so far i am loving it. I have a build on expo- 10 tundra crewmax - if you want to follow my thoughts on it.
rickashay
Explorer
Some good take aways here. Thanks for the thoughts and notes. If I compress one side of the rear suspension, my tires eat the flares at precisely the same time my bumpstop hits the strike plate. Therefore my uptravel cannot increase without cutting my fenders, in that sense. I do not want to gain more uptravel in that situation for that reason, as I know I am already at my limits unless I start cutting.
So, more droop is what I'm after. Yes proper length shocks will immediately gain me 1-1/2" of droop. Still not enough of a gain though if I'm going to start searching for my ideal shock setup and order expensive shocks. So if droop is what I'm after, what's the most efficient option? If I'm relocating spring locations at all, I might as well go with chevy's and get some crazy flex and still have a nice ride on the street. I think their weight capacity would be close to what I'm after with 300-400lbs in the bed. I could always do the chevy 4 leaf 4wd pack if I'm worried about weight.
The flipside though is if I could keep my stock spring hangers in place (saves a lot of work) while gaining say 3-5" more droop and a longer shock, I'm all in. I just don't understand why my current shackle barely rotates forward, unlike the same inverted shackle design on the DMZ setup shown above.
Good point on body roll with the shocks mounted closer to the pumpkin. I never thought about that. I know that the /\ shock mounting decreases dampening ability but didnt think of the body roll aspect if done as shown.
seanpistol
Explorer
I'd personally love the keep the stock shackles and throw in 63" chevys if that works for you...!!!!
rickashay
Explorer
You'd like to do chevy's and keep the inverted shackle? Probably could be done.... however if I'm relocating the front, I'm flipping the rear hanger too!
toyotech
Expedition Leader
this is true because the wheel has more leverage over the shock but with the correct shocks, that set up would work and you wont have to run a long shock as well. less movement the closer to the center you go
seanpistol
Explorer
Mmmmm, I skimmed too fast and missed the first post about needing to relocate the hanger and flip the shackle. I was intrigued by your post that said more droop with a couple hundred pounds extra carrying capacity!
Can't wait to see what you end up doing. I think you're on the right track with wanting more articulation from the rear axle while increasing the payload slightly. I'd like to keep it at about an inch of lift in the rear myself.
I wonder how much more articulation the guys with Alcan or Deaver packs are getting... Did you look through 01Tundra/JJC's build thread? I know his truck in the early years had a custom Deaver pack and 285s-ha! http://www.tundrasolutions.com/forums/off-roading/139106-tundra-evolution/
Last edited:
rickashay
Explorer
No I never saw his truck in it's "prior life". I'll send him a PM.
Another good link for reference... I'm pretty sure I read somewhere else this guy was on Deaver's too. From the photos the flex doesn't look so hawt either.
http://www.socaltundras.com/Forums/...-modified-strikepad-relocation-plate-flip-kit
seanpistol
Explorer
Here's my photo to show the same issue- stock leafs, 1" block, and slightly longer 5100s (not sure exactly how much longer). Weak articulation... got to think that I'd have more traction if both wheels were on the ground 
Doesn't seem unrealistic to achieve that much flex for this scenario, just have to figure out how to go about it.
Would a soft custom spring pack paired with airbags and the Daystar cradles be a bad way to go?
I dug up this old message on 01Tundra/JJC's setup.
"I was running 285's, factory 3.91 gears, Sway-A-Way Racerunner coilovers on the front with Total Chaos uniball upper A-arms. I was runner Deaver 11-pack reaf leaf springs at the time also. Rear shocks were Bilstein 5150's."
This is a photo of his truck I have saved on my computer- not sure where I found it and who knows how many years ago it was.
Pretty cool truck at this stage, long before the SAS and many other stages, until he sold it and then...
Doesn't seem unrealistic to achieve that much flex for this scenario, just have to figure out how to go about it.
Would a soft custom spring pack paired with airbags and the Daystar cradles be a bad way to go?
I dug up this old message on 01Tundra/JJC's setup.
"I was running 285's, factory 3.91 gears, Sway-A-Way Racerunner coilovers on the front with Total Chaos uniball upper A-arms. I was runner Deaver 11-pack reaf leaf springs at the time also. Rear shocks were Bilstein 5150's."
This is a photo of his truck I have saved on my computer- not sure where I found it and who knows how many years ago it was.
Pretty cool truck at this stage, long before the SAS and many other stages, until he sold it and then...
rickashay
Explorer
Good question. I have no idea how long our leafs are and how long the 2nd Gens are.... might be worth a look.
Here's my photo to show the same issue- stock leafs, 1" block, and slightly longer 5100s (not sure exactly how much longer). Weak articulation... got to think that I'd have more traction if both wheels were on the ground
Would a soft custom spring pack paired with airbags and the Daystar cradles be a bad way to go?
I dug up this old message on 01Tundra/JJC's setup.
"I was running 285's, factory 3.91 gears, Sway-A-Way Racerunner coilovers on the front with Total Chaos uniball upper A-arms. I was runner Deaver 11-pack reaf leaf springs at the time also. Rear shocks were Bilstein 5150's."
Your photo showing flex is pretty much identical to my findings. So I doubt it is an isolated issue but more of a engineering and design downfall. I am really having a hard time beleiving its the leafs that are the issue right now. I think it has to be that rear shackle. It just doesn't have the same range of motion as the 2nd Gen taco's factory shackle. If my tundra could achieve the same angle of the inverted shackle on that DMZ Tundra, I would gain several inches of droop with the factory leafs.
Damn, his truck was clean before he went crazy on it. Looks really good in that photo.
I need to flex out my truck again and take some photos of the shackle. Might even loosen the bolts a little and see if it will move more freely... just to determine if it's binding or the cause of the lack of droop. Leaning more to the Chevy's every day.
Last edited:
toyotech
Expedition Leader
so I been thinking. it can only droop as much as the other side is willing to compress. if compression is stopped via shocks or bump stop, than the axle needs to twist to achieve more droop. the shackles can only twist so much. So it looks like we need two things, 1- compression side needs to be able to compress and 2- shackles need to be able to twist.
what do you guys think??
side note, i do have a set of chevy 63 for my runner and i really dont want to mod my tundra with 63s. I rather have it simple since its more for the travel than the rocks
what do you guys think??
side note, i do have a set of chevy 63 for my runner and i really dont want to mod my tundra with 63s. I rather have it simple since its more for the travel than the rocks
TexasTundra
Observer
This is a very interesting thread. I'm learning a lot.
I think you are right on point number 2 that the shackles need to allow more twist as you have more flex, but this depends on the length of springs. Longer springs won't need as much twist from the shackles for the same amount of flex. But for the same length of springs, certainly more twist is needed.
As for more compression being needed, I don't think this is true unless if shackle twist is your limiter. When the axle flexes before hitting the bumpstop on one side, it is basically rotating around the diff. When one side hits the bump stops, it is now rotating around that point for any further flex. The result is simply that now the diff will drop lower as well, and the angle of the axle will change at a slower rate for every additional inch of travel on the droop side. Because of this, the shackles will need to twist less per additional inch of travel, and you start being limited by the length of the shackles themselves.
BTW, why are airbags not an option for high-load situations?
I think you are right on point number 2 that the shackles need to allow more twist as you have more flex, but this depends on the length of springs. Longer springs won't need as much twist from the shackles for the same amount of flex. But for the same length of springs, certainly more twist is needed.
As for more compression being needed, I don't think this is true unless if shackle twist is your limiter. When the axle flexes before hitting the bumpstop on one side, it is basically rotating around the diff. When one side hits the bump stops, it is now rotating around that point for any further flex. The result is simply that now the diff will drop lower as well, and the angle of the axle will change at a slower rate for every additional inch of travel on the droop side. Because of this, the shackles will need to twist less per additional inch of travel, and you start being limited by the length of the shackles themselves.
BTW, why are airbags not an option for high-load situations?
rickashay
Explorer
Definitely the shackles can bind limiting droop. There are creeper joints that allow the shackle bushings to pivot side to side almost like a heim joint. However I think that the bushings can typically deflect enough to get the job done, the creeper joints being used for the extreme crawler crowd.
Yah I'd rather a bolt on solution too but for my uses I need more travel. Your lucky you've got the 4Runner for the more difficult stuff! Love your T4R.
I agree with your thinking.
Airbags are definitely an option for weight capacity. However I personally am not a huge fan as I have a lot of friends who run them on their 3/4 or 1 ton trucks and constantly complain how the airbags are leaking. I guess it could work but I'm just not interested in another component under there, rather get it with the leafs.
rickashay
Explorer
I had the afternoon off and headed over to my garage to have a look at the rear again.
Photos of the rear shackle at full droop, I told you it was pathetic:
IMG_4356.jpg by RickaShay24, on Flickr
I even loosened off the front leaf mounting bolt and both of the rear shackle bolts to try and release any binding, to see if that was the culprit. I gained maybe 1/2' more droop once the bolts were loose. I even tried pulling the tires downward by standing on them with no change.
Just to show the whole truck at droop:
IMG_4359.jpg by RickaShay24, on Flickr
Photos of the rear shackle at full droop, I told you it was pathetic:
IMG_4356.jpg by RickaShay24, on Flickr
I even loosened off the front leaf mounting bolt and both of the rear shackle bolts to try and release any binding, to see if that was the culprit. I gained maybe 1/2' more droop once the bolts were loose. I even tried pulling the tires downward by standing on them with no change.
Just to show the whole truck at droop:
IMG_4359.jpg by RickaShay24, on Flickr