Lite weight campers & RVs. Consumers/customers need to push manufacturers....

[boxcar1]

... But for extended travel don't most examples (of folks who actually do) it more or less throw "Lightweight" out the window?

And I am talking real expedition travel. Not the car camping that 99% of us do who post on this forum...

No , I don't believe they do. ( the folks who actually do ) as you say.
Some of the builds you see on this sight, and others, can be a bit over the top ( JMHO ). And I would imagine are mostly mall crawlers.
If you throw out weight as a consideration for a given build you end up at the upper limit of what the vehicle doing the haling can support. This leads to break downs, then the need for larger vehicle, and on and on and on. A vicious cycle.
I for one, don't feel the need to try to do a water crossing while driving a 10 wheel drive school bus.
A true 4 season rig must be warm, dry, comfortable ( see warm and dry ) and have the ability to stand up to the elements at there worst.
Cold is only part of the equation. Picture a pop up in an 80 mile per hour wind storm. Now add rain or sleet to your picture. Then it starts to snow .
Welcome to the North West.
With proper planning and an eye for the practical, the " light weight hard side camper" can be a reality.
I'm with IdaShow when it comes to the whole privy question . I learned young to never Sh-- where you eat.
JMHO . Adding the privy just adds to the complexity of the rig.
Let's face it, most potties just end up as storage anyway.

 

[Jeep]

Idasho hit it right with the term light being relative. My F-650 is 6000 pounds UNDER gvw. It drives, steers, and stops EXCELLENT and gets 9-10 MPG doing it. It has taken an absolute beating and shows no wear other than the stainless mudflap weights being totally beat into a banana shape from the pounding of the heavy gravel our routes are covered with, out of the4 years and 40 000KM I put on it, 18 000 - 20 000 are on unimproved road. We have driven out of areas where 3/4 ton trucks on 35's pulling anything were getting stuck, pulling a 16' trailer loaded with race bikes and gear, 5 of them to be exact. 42" tall aggressive tires with a locker work, plain and simple. We have tree rubs all along both sides, and they come off pretty good with a good scrubbing. If it were at or over gvw I don't think this would be the case.

Now my other truck is getting a camper as we are racing further away and need to get 2 of us out to these events faster, I built another trailer for the same purpose. It is pretty nice and I would consider light for the size with the ammenities at 2094 pounds dry. I just looked at a similar sized Eagle at 4200 lbs with less equipment so it does qualify as a lightweight. As I have an innovative manufacturing company with some incredibly forward thinking clients it is also a demo unit for some systems and philosophies that are not going to be published yet. This is also a green unit, everything is recyclable and there are recycled materials in major structural components, as well generator free which plays heavy for some very interested industries looking for better solutions. Before anybody gets their underwear wrapped around their nuts, green is a relative term too, don't lose your minds.

Can I build a 1500 pound 8' slide in camper with great features that would last a lifetime in a production environment? Yes.

Am I going to? Wait and see.

Now a bit of a rant as I feel a lot of comments and jabs are out of place and not warranted anywhere on this site, and any moderator can correct me if required. This little rant is off of the last one and it just kind of pissed me off already.

We have the luxury of 150 gallons of fresh, 120 gallons of grey, and 35 gallons of black storage, because we have a full size bathroom with a good sized fiberglass shower. We don't Sh...where we eat, I don't know why anybody would sh...on their table either, and I don't feel the need to discredit anybodies build philosophy because "it doesn't work for me" "I don't like it" "I don't understand it" "it's too expensive" "I don't sweat" whatever. But we have 3 extremely active people in my household that push themselves to physical and mental limits and live the life, myself being one. When you have fresh gear for every day, it just might indicate you probably really need a shower. We haven't only just ridden to those incredible mountain vistas, we have done it....at speed. You don't live my life, and you probably couldn't, I don't live yours and I probably don't want too, so keep your chippy crappy little comments to yourself. You do not look smart. It's OK to be elevated by peers, admirable in fact, but beating your own drum should be kept to your basement with the doors and windows closed.

Personally I think Idasho's camper build is fantastic and it is great to see how wood can be done properly. I think Boxcar is doing something pretty cool with steel and recycling components. It all works, everybodies needs are different....really.

Cheers,
Mark.

 

[Maninga]

... But for extended travel don't most examples (of folks who actually do) it more or less throw "Lightweight" out the window?

And I am talking real expedition travel. Not the car camping that 99% of us do who post on this forum...

I think it's exactly the opposite. Wife and I are planning a 2 year trip, spent a lot of time looking into materials, design to make it as light as possible but as comfortable as possible. Wanted to stay well within the design limits of the truck, for safety reasons and mechanical sympathy, but also makes driving over sand/rocky/muddy surfaces just that much easier. If I had have worked on removing a few more creature comforts, would have saved on the need for additional licensing for the both of us and cheaper registration. If lived in a different state, would have had inspections to avoid too, but lucky we don't need them here.

Our Canter's rated for 6000kg. Base weight dry is 2600kg. Added ~200kg with suspension/wheel/tyre/spares upgrades, 600kg with camper shell, 1000kg of fuel & water, 100kg solar/batteries, say another 500kg in other stuff (cabinets, heating, cooling, seats, storage boxes, winches). That leaves us around 5000kg wet, plenty of spare capacity for food, clothes, toys, spare parts. It could be lighter, but that'd mean less water, less fuel, taking out some of the creature comforts (no need for redgum counter tops really, but it reminds us of home)

 

[adam88]

Now a bit of a rant as I feel a lot of comments and jabs are out of place and not warranted anywhere on this site, and any moderator can correct me if required. This little rant is off of the last one and it just kind of pissed me off already.

We have the luxury of 150 gallons of fresh, 120 gallons of grey, and 35 gallons of black storage, because we have a full size bathroom with a good sized fiberglass shower. We don't Sh...where we eat, I don't know why anybody would sh...on their table either, and I don't feel the need to discredit anybodies build philosophy because "it doesn't work for me" "I don't like it" "I don't understand it" "it's too expensive" "I don't sweat" whatever. But we have 3 extremely active people in my household that push themselves to physical and mental limits and live the life, myself being one. When you have fresh gear for every day, it just might indicate you probably really need a shower. We haven't only just ridden to those incredible mountain vistas, we have done it....at speed. You don't live my life, and you probably couldn't, I don't live yours and I probably don't want too, so keep your chippy crappy little comments to yourself. You do not look smart. It's OK to be elevated by peers, admirable in fact, but beating your own drum should be kept to your basement with the doors and windows closed.

Personally I think Idasho's camper build is fantastic and it is great to see how wood can be done properly. I think Boxcar is doing something pretty cool with steel and recycling components. It all works, everybodies needs are different....really.

Cheers,
Mark.

Haha well said Mark. Frankly, I can't believe anyone wouldn't have a bathroom/shower setup. To me, a camper isn't a camper without a bathroom and indoor shower. People can compare the lightweight 2000-3000# to 4000#-5000#, but those campers all have bathrooms with toilets/showers. The idea of building a 14 foot long camper and having to take a dump outside in the bushes seems a bit off to me, BUT I understand the logistics behind it and I wouldn't criticize. The funny thing is though, if I proposed my own radical idea on here, such as NO DINETTE SEATING people may jump all over me. When I build my camper I am not sure I will put a dinette on it, why? Because why would I put a dinette seating area in a camper when there's a perfectly good bed to sit on? This is totally sound logic... but some people would say you NEED a dinette. For instance IdoSho (very nice camper) has no bathroom but has a dinette. My camper may be the opposite - it may have a bathroom but no dinette. Different strokes for different folks. Goes back to the same thing I said which is you can justify anything, such as... keeping only the guts of the camper warm (70 degrees) while the upper part is around 50 degrees from the radiated heat, and wearing a jacket. Not everyone's cup of tea but again no different than arguing for no bathroom and suggesting that you use public washrooms/the woods/wherever.

 

[adam88]

Non cab over is a whole different ball game too. I'm not sure what the layout would look like for a 4 season without the cabover or what amenities you would be looking for, but that could be a very lightweight unit without the cabover section. What are you thinking for amenities adam88? Regarding the above comments, I side with heating the whole unit, there are ways and arrangements to also accomplish a little more heat going into the important items as you suggested and in doing that the heat could be distributed easily enough that the rest of the cabin stays warm.

hey again Mark. Well, you are a super smart guy (your build is insane). So... I am sure you can picture this. Let me first describe the cabover version I have planned.... Take a four wheel camper, 8.5 feet long, with a 4 foot overhang. 12.5 feet long total. Flatbed design. Overall width is 78 inches. Inside width 76 inches.
.
The bed will be north/south, king size (76"x80"). The first 48 inches on the overhang, and the next 32 inches will be PERMANENT into the camper (not a "bed slide" like current ATC/FWC campers use). That 32 inch compartment will be closed off, and accessed from either side of the vehicle. So now... picture it... you've got a king sized bed with a 32"(D)x76"(W)x42"(H-approx.) area. I'll add 3 inches thick insulation around the 3 external sides + floor in this area, bringing the dimensions to 29"(H)x70"(W)x39"(H). So it will, for all intents and purposes, have an R value of almost 20. This area will hold the guts of the camper... water tank, batteries, pumps, gray tank, etc. Using this area also provides the ideal weight location for the items (right up front, down low) which will push the COG well ahead of the rear axle.
.
So now I've got a king size bed, an insulated cubby area with all the guts of the camper. And I still will have an area of about 68"(w)x78"(W) of flatbed space. In this area, I'd put possibly a 2 person dinette (east/west) against the bed, this would take up about 2 feet. Then there would be 3'8" of counterspace on one side with a SMEV stove/sink combo, and the other 3'8" would be a large pop up bathroom with cassette toilet. There would be storage space in the top part of the cubby accessible from inside.
.
Some other thoughts... space saving ideas... here's one. Everyone I know who builds a camper makes a huge closet a necessity for carrying clothing. But why not use suitcases? Think about it... inside your camper you have a couple of drawers that hold a few pairs of clothing (stuff you'll use that night, or the next morning) but you keep the rest of the stuff in your suitcases. The suitcases sit in the aisle when you're driving. And when you stop, the suitcases get moved to the driver/passenger seats and stay there. You're never using the aisle and the passenger/driver seats at the same time, so this is a great way to conserve space and carry extra items. Requires virtually no time either. Stop, open door, grab suitcase and put it on the seat. Takes 15 seconds.
.
Anyways... back to the non-cabover design now... it's probably unlikely, but if I did a non-cabover design it would simply be this same design except an east/west queen bed and then the counter/bathroom. The advantage to a non-cabover is that I would have more space under the queen bed, the roof would be easier to lift (won't have to climb over a king size bed), and it would be lighter. The disadvantage would be less storage above, smaller bed, and no dinette (and for some, it would look worse). It would also feel a lot smaller inside, less spacious. Since a non-cabover won't save any height I see no reason not to make a cabover. I can still have my insulated cubby by using the north/south design.
.
I fully welcome any criticism of this design. Note: It is not intended to be anywhere near yours, or IdaSho, or that style of camper. But I do think I can build one to be four season. Someone mentioned the Turtle Expedition above and how they took their pop up camper around Siberia. I've read that numerous times and I think the point the poster was trying to make was that they made it! I don't plan to be camping in -40 though. When I say four season, I mean -10 to -15 at the coldest. I think the vinyl sides will hold up find in this temperature which means that the only concern is the interior, and I think R20 surrounding the water tanks combined with a high output diesel powered webasto heater will more than do the trick.
.
Again critique away. Tell me if you think it won't work... and why... would like to hear.

 

[adam88]

Here's a rough mock up I threw together showing the camper described above. Two photos. The dining table (24"x30") slides into the cubby area completely out of sight on heavy duty tracks. So you'd sit down in the dinette and then pull the table out. This allows the east/west dinette configuration. The non-stove/sink cabinet would hold the shower/toilet. The storage cubbies under the bed can be seen. (mattress is 5" thick). I am still learning sketchup so forgive the basicness of the design

.

 

[Healeyjet]

Some great ideas Adam. Like the pull out table. Annie and I like to eat on the couch at home now that the kids are gone. We opted for a small couch and portable tables to eat on and work on. Each configuration that is proposed is to the owner or builders specs. That is what's beautiful about a custom camper. I am sure if we all wanted an off the shelf camper we could do that but chose not to either due to cost, customizability, or just the desire to build or design it ourselves. We are moving to our new setup for a couple reasons. Our light camper is our Jeep with a Habitat installed. If you want light and capable it is an excellent way to travel. We hope to go out for up to three months at a stretch and having to make the bed at night, going outside to pee at 5am and crawling down from an upper bunk are just more than we want to do on this adventure so we are forgoing light for space and amenities.
Love Expo for the number of wild *** ideas that get built and for the design process threads where ideas get vetted.....all good to me.
Ward

 

[IdaSHO]

Haha well said Mark. Frankly, I can't believe anyone wouldn't have a bathroom/shower setup. To me, a camper isn't a camper without a bathroom and indoor shower. People can compare the lightweight 2000-3000# to 4000#-5000#, but those campers all have bathrooms with toilets/showers. The idea of building a 14 foot long camper and having to take a dump outside in the bushes seems a bit off to me, BUT I understand the logistics behind it and I wouldn't criticize.

Who said ANYTHING about not having a toilet inside?

The only thing my camper doesn't have that many assume is a necessity is a shower.

And as Mark has stated, a shower is most definately a LUXURY.



Being a luxury it adds many drawbacks, and few benefits.
Once you add a shower, all of a sudden you need an electric water pump, water heater, and a LOT more fresh water to use.

Not to mention the immense amount of space a shower takes up...



Again, different folks different strokes, but at the end of the day a shower is still a luxury.

If you have the payload available and the space to burn, go for it.

I don't have the extra payload, and I refuse to give up the space, so I didn't.

The result is a lightweight camper with an extremely open "livable" space.



While I like the ideas you have put into SketchUp, I find it hard to believe that more than 1 person could comfortably live in the unit you have drawn up.

I understand the space constraints, really I do, but that unit looks TIGHT, especially the dinette arrangement.



You mention putting clothes in suit cases to save space because you can move the suit case.

That's all fine, and it sounds like you are prioritizing your space needs, which is great.

But try to push that prioritizing further with your design. The camper needs to be useable and comfortable.

And if you are pushing for a legit 4-season camper, and want to use it as such, realize that you will be using the seating area a LOT.

For that one reason, I refused to have a "convertible" dinette. Priorities. If t is to be used a lot, it gets its own permanent space.


Again, only so much space to deal with, but Id encourage you to utilize it best based upon more than just saving it.

Prioritize it by YOUR needs like your clothing in a suitcase thought, and go from there.




As for our dining arrangement, it is still a work in progress as the wife still has the back cushions to stitch up.

but the space as a whole fulls so many needs just like it is. Making it a space that MUST convert (just to get in and out of bed) simply wouldn't work for us.

Also considering some thin cabinets over the back wall for some more stowage capability. Its the ONE wall that doesn't currently have cabinets!

But while being a "permanent" seating area, it can and is designed to knock down into a second "Full" bed.

Speaking of priorities, the new table with built in checker/chess board has proven worthwhile.

Many cold, stormy evenings spent drinking wine and playing checkers. Again, being used as a true 4-season unit, the dinette gets used a lot.

Working remote It gets used as office space on occasion.
Cooking the table gets used for additional counter space.
Swivel the table and the side bench is great for sitting down while lacing/unlacing boots,
And the entire space is a great place for dressing, cleaning, and preening.

And....


Sorry that post got so long :Wow1:

 

[IdaSHO]

Each configuration that is proposed is to the owner or builders specs. That is what's beautiful about a custom camper.

I agree 100%

A custom camper can be custom for many reasons, but reason #1 should be owner needs.

It MUST fulfill the needs of that owner. If it doesnt, by bother.... just go buy an "off the shelf" model, right?

Love Expo for the number of wild *** ideas that get built and for the design process threads where ideas get vetted.....all good to me.
Ward

And the more the better. I wouldnt have it any other way. :ylsmoke:

 

[Ozarker]

Well, this sure is an active thread!

I got through page 10, then jumped here. Back to the question of materials, expense and simplicity, I didn't see where anyone mentioned structural foam or injection molding.

Just picture a big ice chest without the top turned upside down over the truck bed.

There is a storage building for utility purposes and the reason they are pricey is greed, simply competing in the market as a less expensive alternative, rather than being priced from a cost of goods sold perspective.

Structural foam is less expensive as raw material, it is a low pressure injection meaning a mold could be in plywood, male and female with fittings.
It will need some tapered ridges or thickness transitions much like an ice chest as a flat wall surface of the same thickness isn't a "structural" integrity for a larger surface.

I suppose this type of construction is what some have called "composite" but to me, that is a panel type layered construction, not sure. Another approach would be roto molded sections that bolt together. There is a "camper" building using this as a free standing building/shed or it can be mounted on a trailer. Same issue as to pricing, not really priced to what it is but rather to perceived advantages to the market.

So, if any of you guys are up on this stuff, I'd like to hear about it. I'm in a design process myself. But the current plan is more like a tent! LOL

Insulation qualities are very good, did I mention "ice chest"?

 

[IdaSHO]

We have had similar discussions in the past with regards to "ice chest"

And in my opinion it is the only way to go about insulating a camper.

You must treat it like that, as one huge ice chest.



Although with everything there must be a budget in mind, to keep things in focus and being realistic.

So exists is a compromise with regards to insulating the unit, involving average R-Value, Cost, and Weight.



I call my camper a "wood framed" unit, but at the end of the day the structure is indeed a composite sandwich.

Marine grade exterior, XPS foam insulation, and Luan ply on the interior. All bonded together to make a lightweight and extremely strong panel.

 

[squeezer]

I think it's exactly the opposite. Wife and I are planning a 2 year trip, spent a lot of time looking into materials, design to make it as light as possible but as comfortable as possible. Wanted to stay well within the design limits of the truck, for safety reasons and mechanical sympathy, but also makes driving over sand/rocky/muddy surfaces just that much easier. If I had have worked on removing a few more creature comforts, would have saved on the need for additional licensing for the both of us and cheaper registration. If lived in a different state, would have had inspections to avoid too, but lucky we don't need them here.

Our Canter's rated for 6000kg. Base weight dry is 2600kg. Added ~200kg with suspension/wheel/tyre/spares upgrades, 600kg with camper shell, 1000kg of fuel & water, 100kg solar/batteries, say another 500kg in other stuff (cabinets, heating, cooling, seats, storage boxes, winches). That leaves us around 5000kg wet, plenty of spare capacity for food, clothes, toys, spare parts. It could be lighter, but that'd mean less water, less fuel, taking out some of the creature comforts (no need for redgum counter tops really, but it reminds us of home)

Your post just drove home my point...

5000kg before food people and assorted gear is not what would be considered "Lightweight" when viewed through the lens of a slide in camper on a North American pickup truck.

And yes I get the point that you are 1000kg under GVW and lightweight for your chassis... But you could likely count on one hand the number of custom Canter campers in the US.

True Expedition'ing (A new word!!!?) is logistically limited by fuel and fresh water... There is no magic wand a person can wave to make a person need less water. Fuel capacity, or more specifically range is a bit more complex of course as one trades off water carrying capacity for MPG...

 

[calicamper]

Your post just drove home my point...

5000kg before food people and assorted gear is not what would be considered "Lightweight" when viewed through the lens of a slide in camper on a North American pickup truck.

And yes I get the point that you are 1000kg under GVW and lightweight for your chassis... But you could likely count on one hand the number of custom Canter campers in the US.

True Expedition'ing (A new word!!!?) is logistically limited by fuel and fresh water... There is no magic wand a person can wave to make a person need less water. Fuel capacity, or more specifically range is a bit more complex of course as one trades off water carrying capacity for MPG...

I hear Cabellas is going to start carrying Freeze Dried Water for those who need a light weight alternative ;-)

My concept of light weight isnt the same as the next guys concept of light weight. Before kids and before the wife, a sleeping bag, lantern, one burner, small backpacking tent and a tarp on my 650cc bike was perfect. Winter camping? Who does that? I was snow skiiing or going to hawaii.

Full time folks the smart ones both on land and water migrate with the seasons to avoid miserable winter conditions. Full time and stuck in sub zero winter a tiny home with a wood burning stove isnt a bad idea but it aint going to be light. And your not going to be all that excited about driving your home and all your worldly belongings down an ice covered road.

 

[squeezer]

I hear Cabellas is going to start carrying Freeze Dried Water for those who need a light weight alternative ;-)

My concept of light weight isnt the same as the next guys concept of light weight. Before kids and before the wife, a sleeping bag, lantern, one burner, small backpacking tent and a tarp on my 650cc bike was perfect. Winter camping? Who does that? I was snow skiiing or going to hawaii.

Full time folks the smart ones both on land and water migrate with the seasons to avoid miserable winter conditions. Full time and stuck in sub zero winter a tiny home with a wood burning stove isnt a bad idea but it aint going to be light. And your not going to be all that excited about driving your home and all your worldly belongings down an ice covered road.

This post resonates...

I have done 7 days unsupported with a backpack on the PCT, snow camped for 2-3 days at a time on may occasions, 10 days semi-supported on any number of dual sport motorcycles (Usually GS's). Have owned two different Four Wheel pop-ups. (One on an early Bronco and One on a 78 F250) A Provan Tiger on a 4x4 diesel chassis. A "Baja" built 80 Series... Current rigs are a 36' Foretravel, 100 Series cruiser, 40 Series cruiser, and a quiver of bikes.

All of these rigs have their strengths. I don't mention weaknesses as if something was designed for one task and you ask it to do another thats not a weakness thats bad planning.

The idea that you can go unsupported in extreme conditions for any length of time and at any reasonable level of comfort in a lightweight slide in camper is a compromise from the start.

And I am not talking about camping at the ski lodge for a weekend (Thats what the Tiger was built for) or tripping down the coast of Baja for a few weeks (Thats what the 80 was built for). I am talking about months at a time in all weather conditions in safety and comfort...

 

[IdaSHO]

And again, we come back to how people define what their intentions are.
Which is fine. Everyone is different, and has different thoughts and needs.


Squeezer, you mention that your "expeditioning" is ultimately limited by fuel and water.
While that may be true, and is often 100% true, let me ask you this...

Q- whats to say a person or persons utilize their camper and rig for long term dry camping in one location?
Naturally water must be a concern, but there are simple enough ways to go about solving that problem.
As for fuel, it SEVERELY cuts the requirement for fuel, and depending upon how you do it, can nearly make fuel a non-issue.

Similar to yourself, I have gone for WEEKS unsupported in the backcountry with nothing more than gear on my back.
It isnt hard, you just have to know how to do it right, and ultimately, do it right to maintain the trend and remain safe and secure.



And calicamper, you mentioned your views about full timing it in sub sero temps.

For starters, Id never, ever utilize a wood burner. You do NOT want to scavenge for a fuel source in the middle of winter.
Nor do you want to carry such weight to support your heating needs. Propane and/ or diesel is where its at.
With my insulated cabin Ive logged enough data to show that one 20# cylinder is enough to keep the cabin heated and food cooked for a month.
So it is logical to say, I could easily stay lost in the NW woods in the middle of winter for months at a time

And for me, that doesnt sound half bad. We already treat out camper as a base-station quite often for snow shoeing and backpacking trips, normally in the 1-2 week range.
I would LOVE to extend that to months.

And living the NW for the past 10 years, and seeing all kinds of road conditions in every season, I think your concern about roads is a legit one, but a bit assuming.

Sure, roads can get nasty. But slowing down and keeping yourself and your crew safe is easy to do.

Also, who's to say you HAVE to go down that road? Find another option, lay-over, or press on safely.

Whats the worst that can happen if you get stuck in a storm or impassible road?
Youve got yourself a 4-season camper with you!!

In our travels, we have been laid over in large arctic storms more than a few times.
it doesn't bother us, just pushed our schedule (if we even have one) a day or two.