Lite weight campers & RVs. Consumers/customers need to push manufacturers....
- Thread starter Freebird
- Start date
I have read through this thread and for the most part it is a very enjoyable read with respectful discussion (a rarity!). Lots of good posts.
I wanted to throw my own discussion into the insulation/light weight department. I am looking at a FWC because to me it meets all the requirements of what a lightweight proper camper should be. It has low height (only about 8-10 inches above the top of the cab), is well built and easily produced at a reasonable cost, and can be made for flatbeds.
The big downside with the FWC design, however, is the lack of insulation as we all know. It has a pathetic 1 inch of insulation and zero insulation in the pop top portion or aluminum portion. However, I like that in a camper. I like a camper with good airflow, and minimal insulation (call me crazy). The last thing I want is a camper with 4" insulation all the way around that is 80 degrees inside. Too stuffy. I always have a window open. I like my rooms to be about 50 degrees. Anyways...
The real point of this post is to discuss the idea of buying a four wheel camper and using it as a true 4 season camper with running water systems. See, I have come to the conclusion that the best way to achieve this is to create an "insulated box" within the camper that would hold all of the guts of the camper, particularly the fresh water tank and batteries. This box would be heavily insulated on all sides... at least 3 inches thick of pure insulation, except the top. Anything you didn't want to freeze would go in there. The only exposed areas would be the water lines which would be very short and would have insulation on them as well and possibly heat cables.
This type of design would work best in a NON-CABOVER design because the bed would be mounted at about 42" high, leaving (after mattress thickness and frame) about 30 inches of space under the mattress for a HUGE storage area. This area would be about 30"x80"x60". If you surrounded it with 3" insulation on all sides and bottom, you'd have 27"x77"x57".
Then, the best part is, you could have the furnace heat this area and the heat would naturally radiate through the rest of the camper and up THROUGH the mattress you're sleeping on. It would be like a heart pumping blood (heat) to the rest of the camper. Fresh water tank and batteries would be well above freezing even in -40 degrees, even in an insulated camper.
In extreme cold, the floor (outside of the insulated area) may get cold. The roof would be very cold. The vinyl sides may become brittle. But the systems would all keep working.
I feel like this insulated compartment idea is not just applicable to this, but any build. Bottom line is, if you truly want to keep weight down the only heavily insulate the areas which you actually need to insulate.
I wanted to throw my own discussion into the insulation/light weight department. I am looking at a FWC because to me it meets all the requirements of what a lightweight proper camper should be. It has low height (only about 8-10 inches above the top of the cab), is well built and easily produced at a reasonable cost, and can be made for flatbeds.
The big downside with the FWC design, however, is the lack of insulation as we all know. It has a pathetic 1 inch of insulation and zero insulation in the pop top portion or aluminum portion. However, I like that in a camper. I like a camper with good airflow, and minimal insulation (call me crazy). The last thing I want is a camper with 4" insulation all the way around that is 80 degrees inside. Too stuffy. I always have a window open. I like my rooms to be about 50 degrees. Anyways...
The real point of this post is to discuss the idea of buying a four wheel camper and using it as a true 4 season camper with running water systems. See, I have come to the conclusion that the best way to achieve this is to create an "insulated box" within the camper that would hold all of the guts of the camper, particularly the fresh water tank and batteries. This box would be heavily insulated on all sides... at least 3 inches thick of pure insulation, except the top. Anything you didn't want to freeze would go in there. The only exposed areas would be the water lines which would be very short and would have insulation on them as well and possibly heat cables.
This type of design would work best in a NON-CABOVER design because the bed would be mounted at about 42" high, leaving (after mattress thickness and frame) about 30 inches of space under the mattress for a HUGE storage area. This area would be about 30"x80"x60". If you surrounded it with 3" insulation on all sides and bottom, you'd have 27"x77"x57".
Then, the best part is, you could have the furnace heat this area and the heat would naturally radiate through the rest of the camper and up THROUGH the mattress you're sleeping on. It would be like a heart pumping blood (heat) to the rest of the camper. Fresh water tank and batteries would be well above freezing even in -40 degrees, even in an insulated camper.
In extreme cold, the floor (outside of the insulated area) may get cold. The roof would be very cold. The vinyl sides may become brittle. But the systems would all keep working.
I feel like this insulated compartment idea is not just applicable to this, but any build. Bottom line is, if you truly want to keep weight down the only heavily insulate the areas which you actually need to insulate.
IdaSHO
IDACAMPER
Your insulation is not the place you want to skimp. Ever.
And in the grand scheme of things, for my entire build the insulation accounted for less than 80 lbs.
I have the weight sheets to prove it.
Final dry weight was 1900lbs
So insulation accounted for less than 1/2 of a percent. .421% to be exact.
And in the grand scheme of things, for my entire build the insulation accounted for less than 80 lbs.
I have the weight sheets to prove it.
Final dry weight was 1900lbs
So insulation accounted for less than 1/2 of a percent. .421% to be exact.
Well, insulation accounted for a lot more than 80 pounds because your frame had to be twice (or more) as thick to account for the insulation, correct? FWC is only a 1 inch frame. Why is insulation a place you'd never want to skimp?
I saw a post above where you went on about not needing a bathroom in your camper because you just sponge off... you seem like a very practical man. So then I ask you, why would I put 100's of pounds of insulation in my camper when I can just insulate the parts that matter and then "throw on a jacket" while in the camper? Is that not applying the same practicality that you applied to toilets/showers and other items?
IdaSHO
IDACAMPER
Your comparing apples to oranges.
In no way is insulation even remotely related to components like a shower.
Insulation makes a camper more efficient, regardless of components, regardless of temps.
Increasing the efficiency creates many benefits. Primary one being the reduced need for energy to heat (or cool) the cabin.
That in turn allows you to utilize things like a lower BTU heater, and reduces the amount of energy potential (diesel, LP, whatever) you have to carry with you for a given duration of travel.
In my experience with my camper a 20 lb cylinder of propane will last us nearly a month of sub-freezing temp living.
Simple math shows that reducing the overall insulation value of the camper while maintaining a constant temp increases energy consumption.
That means I wouldn't last nearly as long on that 20# tank, and would have to carry more. All of that means more weight.
So in a nut-shell, increase the efficiency of a camper and you in turn can shed weight.
This in turn can be applied to many systems of a camper, like solar.
Lessen the load/draw for electricity and you can loose weight in the form of smaller batteries and solar panels.
And in all honesty, having a camper heater to just 50 degrees in sub freezing temps is a recipe for disaster.
Even a well insulated cabin will have considerable "cold spots" down low right where the tanks are, that simply do not get good air flow to distribute air.
With the cabin at 50 degrees I can tell you that you WILL be testing the water system, especially the supply lines from tank to pump.
In a recent winter trip we had 3 nights stay that dipped below -10 degres F
Even with our cabin set at 68 degrees, we had one line freeze up.
In no way is insulation even remotely related to components like a shower.
Insulation makes a camper more efficient, regardless of components, regardless of temps.
Increasing the efficiency creates many benefits. Primary one being the reduced need for energy to heat (or cool) the cabin.
That in turn allows you to utilize things like a lower BTU heater, and reduces the amount of energy potential (diesel, LP, whatever) you have to carry with you for a given duration of travel.
In my experience with my camper a 20 lb cylinder of propane will last us nearly a month of sub-freezing temp living.
Simple math shows that reducing the overall insulation value of the camper while maintaining a constant temp increases energy consumption.
That means I wouldn't last nearly as long on that 20# tank, and would have to carry more. All of that means more weight.
So in a nut-shell, increase the efficiency of a camper and you in turn can shed weight.
This in turn can be applied to many systems of a camper, like solar.
Lessen the load/draw for electricity and you can loose weight in the form of smaller batteries and solar panels.
And in all honesty, having a camper heater to just 50 degrees in sub freezing temps is a recipe for disaster.
Even a well insulated cabin will have considerable "cold spots" down low right where the tanks are, that simply do not get good air flow to distribute air.
With the cabin at 50 degrees I can tell you that you WILL be testing the water system, especially the supply lines from tank to pump.
In a recent winter trip we had 3 nights stay that dipped below -10 degres F
Even with our cabin set at 68 degrees, we had one line freeze up.
Non cab over is a whole different ball game too. I'm not sure what the layout would look like for a 4 season without the cabover or what amenities you would be looking for, but that could be a very lightweight unit without the cabover section. What are you thinking for amenities adam88? Regarding the above comments, I side with heating the whole unit, there are ways and arrangements to also accomplish a little more heat going into the important items as you suggested and in doing that the heat could be distributed easily enough that the rest of the cabin stays warm.
Irony of ironies is reading this comment on a page that has an article about Gary and Monica Wescott at the top right corner...
Lets not forget that they crossed Siberia in the Winter with a FWC. Yes it was tough and the experience prompted them to build a custom hard side but they made it.
IdaSHO
IDACAMPER
Very true.
I've heard many folks claim up and down that a soft side pop top is "fine" for winter travels.
In my opinion, soft sides have no business in such conditions.
Sure you might get away with it on occasion, but for extended travel, no thanks. A good honest 4-season hardside is whats needed.
I've heard many folks claim up and down that a soft side pop top is "fine" for winter travels.
In my opinion, soft sides have no business in such conditions.
Sure you might get away with it on occasion, but for extended travel, no thanks. A good honest 4-season hardside is whats needed.
boxcar1
boxcar1
X2 .
... But for extended travel don't most examples (of folks who actually do) it more or less throw "Lightweight" out the window?
And I am talking real expedition travel. Not the car camping that 99% of us do who post on this forum...
IdaSHO
IDACAMPER
Obviously "lightweight" is a relative term.
However, a lightweight unit is MORE beneficial for extended travel than short in my eyes.
Im sure some could split hairs with regards to what defines extended travel and "expedition" travel. I know I could, and do.
As a true "expedition" has a start and a finish and/or a goal in mind, and my version of "extended travel" is more or less a form of "van life"
Which is an indefinite life "on the road" that may or may not have any pre-made plans.
Go where you want, stay where you want, on your schedule, and just LIVE. That's my end game plan. My paradise.
But regardless of REASON you are living out of your vehicle for a good duration,
it goes right back to overall efficiency and operating costs. When compared to a heavy unit, a lightweight unit effects the vehicle less.
It lessens the fuel consumption, maintenance, and overall wear and tear on the vehicle.
For example, just think about the tires. Anybody running a good Load E tire knows how much $$ they have wrapped up in tires.
Dropping from a 4,000-5,000lb unit to a 2,000-3,000 lb unit will do wonders to tire wear and tread life.
I think most would LOVE to get say, another 10-15,000 miles out of their tire investment.
And folks living on the road in a vehicle will be much more effected by overall operating costs.
So lower the operating costs by shedding weight, and lessen the financial burden to stay on the road.
And do not confuse a "heavy" camper with durability.
A lightweight camper built correctly can/will be just as durable as a heavier unit.
However, a lightweight unit is MORE beneficial for extended travel than short in my eyes.
Im sure some could split hairs with regards to what defines extended travel and "expedition" travel. I know I could, and do.
As a true "expedition" has a start and a finish and/or a goal in mind, and my version of "extended travel" is more or less a form of "van life"
Which is an indefinite life "on the road" that may or may not have any pre-made plans.
Go where you want, stay where you want, on your schedule, and just LIVE. That's my end game plan. My paradise.
But regardless of REASON you are living out of your vehicle for a good duration,
it goes right back to overall efficiency and operating costs. When compared to a heavy unit, a lightweight unit effects the vehicle less.
It lessens the fuel consumption, maintenance, and overall wear and tear on the vehicle.
For example, just think about the tires. Anybody running a good Load E tire knows how much $$ they have wrapped up in tires.
Dropping from a 4,000-5,000lb unit to a 2,000-3,000 lb unit will do wonders to tire wear and tread life.
I think most would LOVE to get say, another 10-15,000 miles out of their tire investment.
And folks living on the road in a vehicle will be much more effected by overall operating costs.
So lower the operating costs by shedding weight, and lessen the financial burden to stay on the road.
And do not confuse a "heavy" camper with durability.
A lightweight camper built correctly can/will be just as durable as a heavier unit.