loaded gun in the glovebox?

[Martinjmpr]

Great post Martin. Sound advice.

This thread has sort of meandered from Al's original question. But it is important to remember that no matter what the laws are in the State that issued you your Conceal Carry Permit, you are subject to the State and/or Municipalitiy laws whose providence you find yourself under. Even if there is a reciporcal agreement on those permits. Assuming that just because your State allows you do do one thing, does not mean you can do the same in another State. It behoves those that do carry concealed to be aware of the regulations for the States, Municipalities, and Federal lands they are visiting.

That's a very good point and one worth repeating: Even if you are carrying under a reciprocity agreement, remember that you are bound by the laws of the state in which you are carrying, not the state that issued the permit.

This would probably be most applicable in situations such as:

* Restaurants that serve alcoholic beverages or bars. Some states prohibit concealed carry (even by permit holders) in any establishment that serves alcohol. Other states allow concealed carry in restaurants that serve alcohol but not in bars.

* Places such as schools, parks or other public access facilities owned or controlled by government bodies. Again, some states permit concealed carry in such places, others restrict or prohibit it.

* Places that post signs prohibiting concealed carry. In Colorado, for example, there's no law against carrying a concealed weapon in any private facility without the knowledge of the property owner. If the owner of the property wishes, they can post that weapons are not permitted, but the most they can do if they find you in possession of a firearm is ask you to leave. If you don't leave when they ask, you are trespassing. However, in other states, if there are signs posted, you can be arrested for carrying in violation of the signs.

Colorado has probably one of the most lenient concealed carry laws in the country. If you possess a CCW permit you can carry any place except a school, or a place that has magnetometers and other security apparatus to screen for weapons. That's it. No restrictions on carrying in bars, no restrictions on carrying in places that are posted "no weapons" etc.

The danger in having such a lenient policy is that Colorado CCW holders could find themselves in trouble if they go to another state and assume that the privileges of the CCW permit are the same there as they are at home. I know in NC, for example, the CCW permittees are very restricted in how they can carry.

Another point needs to be emphasized regarding reciprocity: Some states issue permits to non residents. Colorado (and some other states) do not recognize non-resident permits. IOW, if you are carrying on a Utah permit, you better have a Utah driver's license, too.

Final point is just to note the wide variance in offense levels. Carrying a concealed weapon illegally in CO is usually a misdemeanor (depending on when and where) but in other states it is a felony. Pleading guilty or getting convicted of a felony has serious consequences including the possibility of a lifetime ban on owning or possessing firearms under Federal law.

 

[FAW3]

Well it's taken 2 days...but I am now at "turkey critical mass" and am too stuffed to do anything but moan and maybe web surf. Anything worth doing...

Anyway, a lot of thoughtful advice followed my post...I'll just reemphasize the main point of my post was the use of a unobtrusive lock box as a secure, safe and easily accessible method to carry a gun afield in a vehicle. Handy to have an extra credit card and some $ in reserve in there too.

As far as when/where and how to carry...follow the law & keep a low "firearm" profile. I try to (I'll note an exception below).

As far as what to say to a law officer, that is my script, I have used it, likely might again. Depends on circumstances. Yep, USC Title 18; 1001 can be a nasty hook to get caught on. But in the not too distant past, you could have a month long trip, and spend one or two nights in a national park, or just have to drive thru one, and be in violation of law as posted or asked about firearms...I have to admit, I have been asked, I lied. My choice. I have to admit that the fact that the NP forest lands in the vicinity of where I live near Washington DC have seen several murders of campers in the last decade or so. Seems someone else isn't reading the park brochure either.

 

[SunTzuNephew]

I can say that in CA it is not legal, locked/lockable or not. The wording of the law specifically excludes the glove box in asserting that handguns must be in a locked container while in a vehicle.
Where the laws get skewed is in an RV. When parked it is your domicile, so house laws generally apply. There are, in CA anyway, some caveats to this that I'm not familiar with enough to state.

The NRA publishes the abbreviated and concise laws for each state in a pamphlet. I'd look into seeing about getting a copy for each state that anyone might want to visit.

California also has a special case of being on the State Capital grounds in Sacramento-not only must the firearm(s) be unloaded, the ammo can't be in a magazine or speed-loader....

The pols want to make sure they're protected....

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

Utah law:
http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/FirearmLaws.html#Carrying


Carrying in Vehicles

A person may not carry a loaded weapon in a vehicle unless they have a valid permit to carry or:

* They are at least 18 years old and
* Has lawful possession of the vehicle or consent of the person who has lawful possession of the vehicle and
* The weapon is not a rifle, shotgun or muzzle-loading rifle

It is lawful for a person with a concealed firearms permit to carry a firearm into a bus terminal.

It is lawful for a person with a concealed firearm permit to board a bus or a train or enter a terminal with a firearm upon their person or effects. This also applies to law enforcement officers or commercial security personnel with firearms used in their employment.

It is lawful to carry a firearm in a vehicle without a permit if: the firearm is unloaded; securely encased (not including a glove box or console box) and is not readily accessible for immediate use.

Laws governing the use of concealed firearms differ from state to state. It is important to understand the laws to ensure that your actions are in compliance with Utah law.

Sources: 53-5-704 Division duties - Utah Code §§ 23-20-11 et seq., 24-2-17, 76-10-301, 76-10-501 et seq.

 

[skysix]

As far as what to say to a law officer, that is my script, I have used it, likely might again. Depends on circumstances. Yep, USC Title 18; 1001 can be a nasty hook to get caught on. But in the not too distant past, you could have a month long trip, and spend one or two nights in a national park, or just have to drive thru one, and be in violation of law as posted or asked about firearms...I have to admit, I have been asked, I lied. My choice.

On the other hand - if you have any prescription medications on board you could say yes - then produce the drugs when asked. Likely the LEO will not get more specific in his questioning, although he might lecture you about wasting his time with 'drugs' when he wanted to know about DRUGS....

 

[Overdrive]

Refuse to answer, ok, I get that, that's using your right against self incrimination, lying about an otherwise legal activity isn't a right.
And as mentioned, if you do so to a U.S. Federal agent you can be charged with a crime for doing so regardless of the nature of the original activity that you were engaged in.

Again, I don't get it. I'm not advocating giving up any rights, I'm advocating not lying to a police officer about a legal activity.

It's not just lying to a Federal agent that can get you into legal trouble. Here in Arizona, and I'd guess all other states, it's illegal to lie to a state or municipal police officer. (ARS 13-2907.01)

Some posts have jumped on FAW3 for his thoughts/procedures. Reading between the lines, I can tell they have been crafted after years of experience in knowing the human nature of cops as well as the law. As he stated, he does not hold a CCW; therefore, he is not under the same legal obligation to surrender his weapon for inspection if asked by a cop. Yes, you give up some rights to continue holding your CCW that you would not have to give up as a non-CCW holder.

Telling a cop that you don't have a gun when you are a law abiding citizen, not suspected of any sort of crime, may be the prudent thing to do if you want to just continue on with your trip without being interrogated or having your vehicle searched because you've raised the cop's suspicions. I know, I know--cops "cannot" do that without a search warrant. But it happens. Some folks would just rather avoid that whole mess the easy way instead of adamantly asserting their rights. As he said, it's a conscious choice one needs to make.

 

[Martinjmpr]

...if you want to just continue on with your trip without being interrogated or having your vehicle searched because you've raised the cop's suspicions. I know, I know--cops "cannot" do that without a search warrant. But it happens. Some folks would just rather avoid that whole mess the easy way instead of adamantly asserting their rights. As he said, it's a conscious choice one needs to make.

Common misconception but wrong.

The police don't need a search warrant to search a car on the highway. All they need is probable cause, which is usually defined as an objective set of circumstances that would cause a reasonable person to believe that a crime has been committed and that evidence of the crime can be found in the place to be searched.

Carroll v. US, 267 U.S. 132 (1925)

 

[Overdrive]

The context of my post was "when you are a law abiding citizen, not suspected of any sort of crime".

Meaning, no probable cause would exist for a cop to suspect you have a gun in the car.

 

[SunTzuNephew]

Common misconception but wrong.

The police don't need a search warrant to search a car on the highway. All they need is probable cause, which is usually defined as an objective set of circumstances that would cause a reasonable person to believe that a crime has been committed and that evidence of the crime can be found in the place to be searched.

Carroll v. US, 267 U.S. 132 (1925)

And in some jurisdictions, if you don't grant the police permission to search, they will call in a 'drug detection canine' to walk around your vehicle. And guess what?

Then they have PC to search you.

 

[SunTzuNephew]

If a law-abiding individual wishes to comply with the appropriate laws, and have a handgun in their vehicle a better way to keep it secure is in a locking vault such as those available from http://www.center-of-mass.com/index.htm

I've purchased several from them, and am happy with the products.

 

[Deleted member 9101]

And in some jurisdictions, if you don't grant the police permission to search, they will call in a 'drug detection canine' to walk around your vehicle. And guess what?

Then they have PC to search you.

To an extent. If the dog doesn't hit on something, then no PC

 

[SunTzuNephew]

To an extent. If the dog doesn't hit on something, then no PC

In those jurisdictions, the dog always hits...and it's reported in more than one occasion that they find drugs that weren't there before.