Lockers vs. TruTrack

[Ruffin' It]

I know the traditional response is that lockers (often ARB or Detroit) are the way to go, but I'm wondering if they are really the best option for most people (or just me)? The way I see it, lockers (specifically air lockers) aren't as good in a lot of situations as a good LSD would be.

Here are my thoughts that I was hoping some more experienced people (or less, I don't judge) would weight in on;

- Lockers make it hard to turn and put extra strain on the driveline when engaged. LSD's don't have much effect on either.
- Lockers like to slide down hill when crossing a side slope. LSD's don't have that issue.
- Lockers can make the locked axle behave unpredictably under certain conditions like snow, thin layer of mud on a hard surface, etc. LSD's allow enough slippage to minimize that.
- Lockers (air) add complexity to the vehicle. I know ARB is very reliable. But a good LSD (non-clutch) are pretty much install and forget (Detroit lockers are too).
- You have to engage air lockers before you get into trouble. LSD's take care of that for you.
- A lot of the time you don't really need (or even necessarily actually want) both wheels to rotate at exactly the same speed. I mean, in a lot of instances, you are just going to be forcing one wheel to loose traction so it can stay at the same speed as the other instead of rotating separately and both maintaining traction, no?
- A good LSD keeps the wheels rotating at fairly similar rates. Not 1:1, but I'm wondering how much of a negative impact on forward progress a 3:1 ratio would actually have?


I actually can't think of a lot of situations where a locker sounds like the best option. Deep mud, maybe real deep soft sand, rock crawling, or extreme uphill, loose climbs. Other than that, it strikes me as a big compromise for what is, in reality for me, a rare occurance. I don't do much rock crawling and have never been in sand, even at Pismo, that my Land Rover's traction control didn't deal with adequately (I'm selling the Rover, but I can't imagine a TruTrack would be worse). So I have been thinking, for someone who likes to stay in moderate to heavier moderate territory or on snowy roads and loves simplicity, it sounds like good way to go. What are people's thoughts on front and rear TruTracks? Is there anything that I am not understanding or just wrong about here?

Thank you to everyone in advance.

 

[7wt]

I wrestle with same line of thought. I still haven't come up with anything that makes sense to me. I like the idea of the Truetrac but most people will tell you it's not worth the expense. It is the second most expensive option needing an instal kit, and the labour to set the mesh right. For simplicity the Powertrax makes the most sense but there is the snow and ice concern for us northerners. The ARB has a few quirks but the main draw back is the cost of install and added complexity. Ultimately I think a Powertrax is gooing to land in the 7wt truck but I am still a little apprehensive. Oh well, I am in no real hurry anyway.

 

[Mike.rider]

from my experience and understanding the biggest disadvantages of a L/S vs a locker is when you have a wheel with little to no traction IE off the ground or on a slick surface (wet roots, ice) most limited slips a torque multipliers the problem is if a wheel has 0 traction 0x and torque is still zero thus leaving your froward progress impeded or worse your left stuck.

heres an example

my wheels that were drooped out had little if any traction so all the power was spun off to them. with the axles locked together they are forced to have the same power sent to them thus making both wheel spin at the same speed regardless of traction

 

[brianjwilson]

I've had a couple of trucks (including current F150) with limited slips. They are okay for most driving. But on an Explorer Sport Trac that I had installed aussie lockers in (front and rear) it was amazing. Even with just the rear locker, it would walk right up places I would previously struggle up with a limited slip. Remember a limited slip will still sit and spin one tire like an open differential once one tire is off the ground, or near being off the ground.

 

[brianjwilson]

Hey Mike! Perfect example. With a rear locker Mike's ranger would drive right up that with no wheel spin.
I never found the aussie locker in my sport trac to be a bad thing, and it was my daily driver. Driving on snow covered roads, it exacted exactly as a limited slip. Easy on the throttle and the left/right differentiating works just like an open diff. Step on the gas and both spin, giving you some over steer. BUT it is very predictable over steer which is actually nice. I will say again, I LOVED the way it behaved on snow and ice. The front locker was a little different story though. I wouldn't suggest a front locker for snow ice (it likes to go straight), but it is still drivable.
Manuevering around with an automatic locker is just as easy as an open differential. It works great in snow, ice, sand, mud, loose dirt and gravel...
After having lockers, there is no way I would even bother replacing a differential with anything but a locker. But that's just me.
If you are set on a selectable locker, it is still very easy to unlock, make your turns, and lock again.

Here is a picture of my towing a loaded down trailer through Wyoming with front and rear lockers. The snow melted here due to sitting and idling, but much of the drive was through packed snow and ice...

And I must have hundred of pictures like this in the snow. It got around great!

 

[brianjwilson]

Stuck here with a limited slip.
The left rear tire just sat and spun like crazy, and the right stayed in one spot.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...The way I see it, lockers (specifically air lockers) aren't as good in a lot of situations as a good LSD would be.

Are you familiar with the operation of an ARB Air Locker versus that of an automatic or full-time locker? The ARB can be turned off, when off it acts only as an open differential would, so zero difference from a stock open vehicles handeling. When locked, its locked 100%, no clutches, no slip, 100%.

- Lockers make it hard to turn and put extra strain on the driveline when engaged. LSD's don't have much effect on either.

ARB, turn it off, no additional strain and less than even that of the LSD.

Lockers like to slide down hill when crossing a side slope. LSD's don't have that issue.

ARB, turn it off, no sideways action, and again less than that of the LSD imo.

Lockers can make the locked axle behave unpredictably under certain conditions like snow, thin layer of mud on a hard surface, etc. LSD's allow enough slippage to minimize that.

ARB, turn it off, less unpredictable behavior than even that of an LSD, both of which would be less than a full-time lockers such as Detroit, Aussie, LockRight, etc.

Lockers (air) add complexity to the vehicle. I know ARB is very reliable. But a good LSD (non-clutch) are pretty much install and forget (Detroit lockers are too).

True to some degree, but a properly installed ARB system should give you years of flawless performance, a secondary air source and full-lockers when needed. The LSD's reliability can't be argued, especially that of a TrueTrac or similar clutchless units.

You have to engage air lockers before you get into trouble. LSD's take care of that for you...

Take no offense, but if you don't know when or feel comfortable with when/where to engage a locker, a LSD likely is a better option. ARB's for the most part lock up instantly and unless your in a tight, technical or high-speed obstacle, there is no reason you can't just turn them on ahead of time. Front lockers will bind the steering but a rear locker has little handling effect on the vehicle on loose terrain.

A lot of the time you don't really need (or even necessarily actually want) both wheels to rotate at exactly the same speed. I mean, in a lot of instances, you are just going to be forcing one wheel to loose traction so it can stay at the same speed as the other instead of rotating separately and both maintaining traction, no?

I can't really think of a time where I would want to be in between locked or open? In fact anything in between would be the compromise imo. Depending on the locker and axle you are considering, there are options that are both a LSD and full-locker however their axle applications are somewhat limited.

A good LSD keeps the wheels rotating at fairly similar rates. Not 1:1, but I'm wondering how much of a negative impact on forward progress a 3:1 ratio would actually have?

Completely situational but "a lot" would be my answer. Enough to dictate every 4x4 needing dual full lockers front and rear, of course not, but for many the choice is simple.

What are people's thoughts on front and rear TruTracks? Is there anything that I am not understanding or just wrong about here?

I think the TrueTrac is a great product, I've sold and installed them and customers knowing their design are happy with the results. For many applications they are the ideal choice, for others they are sub-par.

Also it was mentioned (7wt) that the TrueTrac requires a full install kit, this is not the case, a carrier only swap at most will require carrier bearings and a diff gasket. Parts will vary by application but as the pinion is not moving at all, there is no reason for a full install kit unless you want to rebuild the entire setup.

 

[jcbrandon]

There are pros and cons to both. But for reliable traction nothing beats a driver-selectable locker. Best of both worlds is a limited-slip diff that also offers positive, driver-selectable locking.

 

[ntsqd]

I've no personal experience with the Tru-Trac, but an old friend of mine (Ed Wong for those of you Toyota folks who go back to the ORC yota mini list) ran them front and rear in the Eastern NFS roads. Often his comment to detractors pointing out the the Tru-Trac does not lock up was to say that briefly and slightly riding the brakes in a technical section where one tire was unloaded to the point of slipping would lock it up.

My '84 mini has a Detroit in the rear and a Lock-rite in the front. No way would I recommend that combo to anyone but a crawler. At some point I plan to put the Detroit up front and replace the Lock-Rite with a Tru-Trac. It makes the most sense for how I use the truck.

 

[The Adam Blaster]

I had a limited slip in my Dodge Dakota, and I got stuck a lot.
Then I started using the skinny pedal A LOT and earned my nickname.
I put a Detroit in the rear of my Cherokee, and don't get stuck nearly as often in similar situations as I did with the Dodge.
For me, I'll never go back to open, or LS diffs.

As for the air lockers - great, but pricey.
One of the few negatives about them - the air lines can accumulate condensation in them, and in colder climates (Canadian winters for example) the moisture can freeze in the lines and block all the air flow.
That results in not being able to lock, or unlock from your current state.
The other possibility is that if there is a large amount of condensation, the lines can actually burst from the expansion of the water H2O molecules. That possibility is probably pretty rare though.

 

[Ruffin' It]

Perfect, thank you

OK, that certainly adds a little clarity. Thank you to everyone. I knew that LSD's sometimes need a little coaxing with the brake to fully work, but it really sounds like my hesitation about a locker are largely unfounded. I guess this would explain their perennial popularity. I'm pretty confidant that I wouldn't struggle too much with deciding when and where to lock them (no offense taken at all, Cuiseroutfit. This is exactly the sort of feed back I was hoping for), I was more worried about tight spaces where room to unlock - maneuver - and re-lock is minimal. But, it sounds pretty unanimous that the majority of my concerns aren't as problematic as I was thinking they might be.
So, would I be correct in assuming that, in a perfect world, front and rear air lockers are the way to go, or would a TrueTrack front be worth considering with a locker rear?

[Eric Cartman voice: ON] I love you guys [Eric Cartman voice: OFF]

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...So, would I be correct in assuming that, in a perfect world, front and rear air lockers are the way to go, or would a TrueTrack front be worth considering with a locker rear?...

ExPo member 'Hayes' will have that exact setup by this weekend. Running a LockRight in the rear and a TrueTrac in the front. His research lead him to that being a nice combo for the 80 Series Land Cruiser... hopefully he'll chime in after the install is complete

 

[skitime]

I think the most important consideration that was not even mentioned is safety. If your vehicle is going to be driven on roads by your wife or girlfriend then a selectable locker is the best choice. Even a limited slip differential can be dangerous on a wet road and even more dangerous with a short wheelbase vehicle. When both rear wheels spin you can loose control before you realize you are in danger. In the hands of an inexperienced driver a limited slip or other lockers can be very dangerous. My friend's wife had an accident and was only pulling out of a T intersection on a wet road with a limited slip rear. The Durango rear end broke loose and the vehilce spun around and hit a pole on the opposite side of the road because of the limited slip. Many say they can't afford a selectable locker but think what an accident might cost you in the long run.

 

[I Leak Oil]

The merits of LSC or a full locker can be debated but one reason for swapping out a carrier is the locker or LSD carrier is usually much stronger than the stock open unit it is replacing. That's a good enough reason to me to make a swap but.....
If you're replacing an open diff based on a traction issue, I don't see the debate. A locker is superior to an LSD in terms of shear traction. If you don't think you need a locker then you probably don't need an LSD either. Both types will make your truck handle differently than a stock open carrier and you will have to adjust accordingly no matter which you choose.
I'll check back in when this thread reaches page 50....:sombrero:
Jason T.

 

[Northern Explorer]

I have the Eaton g80 locker in my Chevy Colorado. It's a step above a limited slip in that both back wheels are 100% "locked" when it engages. It engages automatically when it senses unilateral wheel spin. I've been happy with this locker especially in wet, icy, snowy, slippery conditions. If I need the extra traction it will engauge. The rear end breakng loose and sliding sideways is something that can occur with any differential setup if the conditions are slippery enough. Not having a heavy foot on the gas is the best solution to this. I do agree that a selectable locker is the best option in most circumstances. To date, a selectable rear locker is not available for the Colorado.