Bandicoot
Adventurer
This was my reasoning against taking up LPG for the inside or outside kitchen in our motorhome.
LPG is often used in motorhomes for cooking, hot water and perhaps even space heating.
I believe a motorhome needs an outdoor cooking facility (as well as indoor). Not only is it sociable if travelling with friends, but also helps reduce congestion in the camper plus if you need to be cooking smelly or fatty foods, it is much better outside esp if you do not have an extraction fan over the internal cooktop as the EC has done (note: this was done due to problems of extraction fan systems in kitchen or ensuites “sucking in” dust during travel on very dusty roads).
However, a key principle for us in our selection of our motorhome was to avoid multiple fuels and to avoid the riskier “volatile” fuels, which means those that have a low flash point, such as LPG and methanol.
Relying on an open fire for cooking is not practical due to problems with wet weather, cold weather, lack of availability of suitable wood in some places, bans on open fires (e.g. in national parks or during fire bans).
We wanted to avoid multiple fuels due to the need to then manage all these fuels, and often to carry second containers for them to avoid running out. There are the issues of containers leaking and increased fire risks especially in the riskier fuels. Some fuels (esp LPG) are also vapour at standard temperature and pressure, so that any leak will result in an explosive atmosphere.
We also noted that we can have a diesel hot water system and camper heating operating while the vehicle is in motion, this is not the case with LPG. Hence we can turn on the HWS and have hot water ready for a shower when we arrive at camp, or the camper already heated, or maintain camper temperature during travel. The diesel heater can also be set to automatically come on to effectively “winterise” the camper interior when the vehicle is in storage; this cannot be done with LPG which in most cases needs to be isolated for safety reasons when the vehicle is unattended. In addition, no LPG operated HWS in Australia provides the auto-dump facility to protect the HWS from freezing.
On this basis, we eliminated LPG as a fuel. Specific additional concerns we had about LPG included:
o By law in Australia, any LPG device in a caravan or motorhome must always have outside ventilation. This is not just the “bottles” but also the actual devices themselves on the basis that the LPG gas lines to the devices, or the device itself, could develop a leak and ventilation is essential to try to keep the resulting air/LPG mixture outside the explosive range. It is illegal for the caravan or motorhome to be completely sealed up even when the device is not operating (in case there is a leak); however, this ensures dust will get in!
o When an LPG device is operating (e.g. internal cooktop), it is essential to keep a window open due to the potential for deadly carbon monoxide.
o Any gas fed flame (e.g. LPG) has a problem in windy conditions, even with wind deflectors in place. However, those fed from a rubber hose (e.g. LPG) are more exposed than (say) a Coleman dual-fuel stove (which uses a rigid steel pipe for fuel delivery, not a flexible rubber hose), as there is the additional risk of the hose being able to melt through.
o When LPG burns, it produces not only toxic gases but also significant amounts of water vapour. In cold conditions, the water vapour will condense on the inside of the camper. Eliminating LPG eliminates this source of condensation.
o Gas bottles have to be removed for filling. However, diesel tanks do not.
o There is the difficulty of knowing how much LPG has is left in the bottle. It is not convenient to be weighing the bottle frequently and other methods are not reliable or practical.
o The difficulty of getting bottles refilled. It is now the law (here in Queensland) that any person refilling an LPG gas bottle has to be “certified” i.e. have done a suitable course and assessed as competent. Most garage owners can’t be bothered to do this (with the number of casuals etc), and in addition, often there is only one person “on duty” at a garage and they haven’t got the time to do both bottle refills and take money off customers for fuel. Most garages have therefore converted over to the “Swap n Go” system of LPG bottle exchange (bring in an empty, receive a full bottle). However, there are three grades of LPG bottles. There are the cheap bottles that are designed for home BBQ use and never to be “on the road”, more expensive bottles, and then the galvanised bottles. Bottles that are designed to handle the rough and tumble of life on the road need to be high quality. Who wants to “swap” their good bottle for a cheap n nasty one from Swap n Go?
o Overseas, there are problems with the type of fitting on LPG bottles and the need to carry multiple adaptors, or even buy new bottles for different countries.
o LPG in Australia is 100% Propane. However, autogas is a mixture of propane and butane, and “LPG” overseas can be quite a high proportion of butane. Butane boils at 0.6deg C, which means it is unsuitable for use in temperatures below about 5deg C. In addition, cylinders and fittings designed for use with Propane only cannot be safely used with mixtures of propane and butane.
o Whilst the heat content of LPG and unleaded petrol is roughly the same (per kg), a single 10 litre steel Jerry can of unleaded fuel would occupy about the same volume as two x 1.5 kg LPG bottles (with hoses etc) so LPG bottles are an inefficient way (space-wise) of carrying heat.
o We did not want a slide-out kitchen BBQ due to the space lost by this and the dependence of these systems on LPG fuel. Having a slide-out kitchen also ties the cook into being at the vehicle while cooking. This is not always the most practical or pleasant place to be cooking.
o For the outside cooking, a Coleman Dual fuel is extremely light, self-contained and portable, and can easily be removed to take it off to a picnic table, or down a creek bank to where we had the chairs; we won’t be forced into cooking at the EC itself, which is not always convenient.
o I like these Coleman stoves as they are very light, very fast boiling for quick cup of tea or coffee, fuel is available everywhere, they work down to -40 deg whereas butane only works to about +5 deg C. You can use them as an oven (with some limitations) if you put a camp oven on top of a burner. The stove is also good with a toaster or jaffle iron.
o There is also room in the same outside locker for my Cobb heat bead cooker, and next to the Cobb a supply of heat beads etc. I have a small cast iron camp oven that (with side lugs ground off ever so slightly) fits neatly inside the Cobb.
o I then have 4 options for cooking: Webasto, dual-fuel, Cobb and camp oven on open fire. This gives us great flexibility and redundancy.
o This arrangement would have everything in one place for me for outdoor cooking (and also have good light from the awning light).
Bandicoot
LPG is often used in motorhomes for cooking, hot water and perhaps even space heating.
I believe a motorhome needs an outdoor cooking facility (as well as indoor). Not only is it sociable if travelling with friends, but also helps reduce congestion in the camper plus if you need to be cooking smelly or fatty foods, it is much better outside esp if you do not have an extraction fan over the internal cooktop as the EC has done (note: this was done due to problems of extraction fan systems in kitchen or ensuites “sucking in” dust during travel on very dusty roads).
However, a key principle for us in our selection of our motorhome was to avoid multiple fuels and to avoid the riskier “volatile” fuels, which means those that have a low flash point, such as LPG and methanol.
Relying on an open fire for cooking is not practical due to problems with wet weather, cold weather, lack of availability of suitable wood in some places, bans on open fires (e.g. in national parks or during fire bans).
We wanted to avoid multiple fuels due to the need to then manage all these fuels, and often to carry second containers for them to avoid running out. There are the issues of containers leaking and increased fire risks especially in the riskier fuels. Some fuels (esp LPG) are also vapour at standard temperature and pressure, so that any leak will result in an explosive atmosphere.
We also noted that we can have a diesel hot water system and camper heating operating while the vehicle is in motion, this is not the case with LPG. Hence we can turn on the HWS and have hot water ready for a shower when we arrive at camp, or the camper already heated, or maintain camper temperature during travel. The diesel heater can also be set to automatically come on to effectively “winterise” the camper interior when the vehicle is in storage; this cannot be done with LPG which in most cases needs to be isolated for safety reasons when the vehicle is unattended. In addition, no LPG operated HWS in Australia provides the auto-dump facility to protect the HWS from freezing.
On this basis, we eliminated LPG as a fuel. Specific additional concerns we had about LPG included:
o By law in Australia, any LPG device in a caravan or motorhome must always have outside ventilation. This is not just the “bottles” but also the actual devices themselves on the basis that the LPG gas lines to the devices, or the device itself, could develop a leak and ventilation is essential to try to keep the resulting air/LPG mixture outside the explosive range. It is illegal for the caravan or motorhome to be completely sealed up even when the device is not operating (in case there is a leak); however, this ensures dust will get in!
o When an LPG device is operating (e.g. internal cooktop), it is essential to keep a window open due to the potential for deadly carbon monoxide.
o Any gas fed flame (e.g. LPG) has a problem in windy conditions, even with wind deflectors in place. However, those fed from a rubber hose (e.g. LPG) are more exposed than (say) a Coleman dual-fuel stove (which uses a rigid steel pipe for fuel delivery, not a flexible rubber hose), as there is the additional risk of the hose being able to melt through.
o When LPG burns, it produces not only toxic gases but also significant amounts of water vapour. In cold conditions, the water vapour will condense on the inside of the camper. Eliminating LPG eliminates this source of condensation.
o Gas bottles have to be removed for filling. However, diesel tanks do not.
o There is the difficulty of knowing how much LPG has is left in the bottle. It is not convenient to be weighing the bottle frequently and other methods are not reliable or practical.
o The difficulty of getting bottles refilled. It is now the law (here in Queensland) that any person refilling an LPG gas bottle has to be “certified” i.e. have done a suitable course and assessed as competent. Most garage owners can’t be bothered to do this (with the number of casuals etc), and in addition, often there is only one person “on duty” at a garage and they haven’t got the time to do both bottle refills and take money off customers for fuel. Most garages have therefore converted over to the “Swap n Go” system of LPG bottle exchange (bring in an empty, receive a full bottle). However, there are three grades of LPG bottles. There are the cheap bottles that are designed for home BBQ use and never to be “on the road”, more expensive bottles, and then the galvanised bottles. Bottles that are designed to handle the rough and tumble of life on the road need to be high quality. Who wants to “swap” their good bottle for a cheap n nasty one from Swap n Go?
o Overseas, there are problems with the type of fitting on LPG bottles and the need to carry multiple adaptors, or even buy new bottles for different countries.
o LPG in Australia is 100% Propane. However, autogas is a mixture of propane and butane, and “LPG” overseas can be quite a high proportion of butane. Butane boils at 0.6deg C, which means it is unsuitable for use in temperatures below about 5deg C. In addition, cylinders and fittings designed for use with Propane only cannot be safely used with mixtures of propane and butane.
o Whilst the heat content of LPG and unleaded petrol is roughly the same (per kg), a single 10 litre steel Jerry can of unleaded fuel would occupy about the same volume as two x 1.5 kg LPG bottles (with hoses etc) so LPG bottles are an inefficient way (space-wise) of carrying heat.
o We did not want a slide-out kitchen BBQ due to the space lost by this and the dependence of these systems on LPG fuel. Having a slide-out kitchen also ties the cook into being at the vehicle while cooking. This is not always the most practical or pleasant place to be cooking.
o For the outside cooking, a Coleman Dual fuel is extremely light, self-contained and portable, and can easily be removed to take it off to a picnic table, or down a creek bank to where we had the chairs; we won’t be forced into cooking at the EC itself, which is not always convenient.
o I like these Coleman stoves as they are very light, very fast boiling for quick cup of tea or coffee, fuel is available everywhere, they work down to -40 deg whereas butane only works to about +5 deg C. You can use them as an oven (with some limitations) if you put a camp oven on top of a burner. The stove is also good with a toaster or jaffle iron.
o There is also room in the same outside locker for my Cobb heat bead cooker, and next to the Cobb a supply of heat beads etc. I have a small cast iron camp oven that (with side lugs ground off ever so slightly) fits neatly inside the Cobb.
o I then have 4 options for cooking: Webasto, dual-fuel, Cobb and camp oven on open fire. This gives us great flexibility and redundancy.
o This arrangement would have everything in one place for me for outdoor cooking (and also have good light from the awning light).
Bandicoot
