LR3 Help

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proper4wd

Expedition Leader
I do not want to instigate an argument regarding the LR3's viability for certain roles. It has been discussed at great length in recent history and there are people on this board with polarized opinions. With respect to all opinions, let's agree to disagree.

To be fair and in effort to offer explanation, however, the LR3 software updates are primarily to further refine and tune the systems. It sounds scary, saying that it needs engine management and transmission management updates, but they do not reference major underlying problems. They address things like idle smoothness, transmission shift points, exhaust emission parameters, etc.

Once again not trying to incite battle just providing information.
 

muskyman

Explorer
I do not want to instigate an argument regarding the LR3's viability for certain roles. It has been discussed at great length in recent history and there are people on this board with polarized opinions. With respect to all opinions, let's agree to disagree.

To be fair and in effort to offer explanation, however, the LR3 software updates are primarily to further refine and tune the systems. It sounds scary, saying that it needs engine management and transmission management updates, but they do not reference major underlying problems. They address things like idle smoothness, transmission shift points, exhaust emission parameters, etc.

Once again not trying to incite battle just providing information.

I know you think this is all normal stuff because you deal with it with these but changing and updating software is exactly what makes these things a mess waiting to happen.

Planned obsolescence through computer programming first showed up in cars in the early 90's with BMW's . BMW actually wrote in time bombs that would create issues in the cars that would make them more expensive to fix then replace. Any car company that so tweeks the software that it has to be updated after the car is delivered is a car I dont want anything to do with.

So if you know so much about these and have so much confidence in them answer this. Stoichiometric ratios have not changed so why does the software need to be changed to improve idle smoothness and what not?

It all sounds like they trucks were not done right to begin with and that faults in the sooftware are really what is being updated.
 

michaelgroves

Explorer
I know you think this is all normal stuff because you deal with it with these but changing and updating software is exactly what makes these things a mess waiting to happen.

Planned obsolescence through computer programming first showed up in cars in the early 90's with BMW's . BMW actually wrote in time bombs that would create issues in the cars that would make them more expensive to fix then replace. Any car company that so tweeks the software that it has to be updated after the car is delivered is a car I dont want anything to do with.

So if you know so much about these and have so much confidence in them answer this. Stoichiometric ratios have not changed so why does the software need to be changed to improve idle smoothness and what not?

It all sounds like they trucks were not done right to begin with and that faults in the sooftware are really what is being updated.

I think we can all agree that simplicity is a virtue - but it's not the only virtue. Cars (and trucks) have got steadily more complex over the past 100 years, but undeniably better in almost all respects. One of the benefits of software control is that one can make incremental improvements to cars very cheaply. Your suggestion that the "trucks were not done right to begin with" is naive - there are thousands of combinations of settings that affect smoothness, performance, reliability, fuel consumption, emissions etc. They make improvements in the light of ongoing testing, and analysing customer feedback and service data from the trucks already in use. It's a virtue, not a vice.

Regarding the LR3's suitability for expeditions: every design philosophy has trade-offs, and the further one is likely to be from suitable facilities, the more weight one should logically attach to the virtues of simplicity and the ability to make trail repairs. However not all expeditions are that remote from well-equipped technical assistance, and for some people, it's not an illogical choice to decide that the comfort and safety and capability of an LR3 make it suitable for their particular expedition. Myself, I prefer a Defender, but while it's a preference based on a fair amount of experience, I don't pretend it's anything more than a personal opinion.

Btw... I have a mid/late nineties BMW 5 series that's done over 400,000km, and the only major failure has apparently been this timebomb you're referring to! Where do I read up more on this little gem? Planned obsolescence, as I understand it, is simply designing a vehicle with a planned lifespan in mind - i.e. not "overbuilding" it. Conspiracy theories apart, they're not likely to undertake the risk and expense of deliberately ensuring that their cars break after a certain mileage or age! (Making sure that fixing cars is uneconomical doesn't require a timebomb - just price the spare parts accordingly).
 

Antichrist

Expedition Leader
I do not want to instigate an argument regarding the LR3's viability for certain roles.
Note that in my statement I did not single out the LR3.
However not all expeditions are that remote from well-equipped technical assistance, and for some people, it's not an illogical choice to decide that the comfort and safety and capability of an LR3 make it suitable for their particular expedition.
That's true. I admit, when I think of the term "Overlanding" in the context of this forum, I don't envision a network of dealers every 100-200 miles. Granted, there are many trips you can go on where you're close to one, but even driving across Nebraska, it's going to be a fair tow to the dealer in most areas (for a Land Rover). I expect something like a Ford, Chevy etc. would put you closer to a dealer.
But I agree 100%, it's all about the trade-offs you're willing to risk/make. For me, I just can't easily afford the expense of long distance towing, or towing from difficult terrain, so I do everything I can to reduce the chances of needing that.
 
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R_Lefebvre

Expedition Leader
I know you think this is all normal stuff because you deal with it with these but changing and updating software is exactly what makes these things a mess waiting to happen.

Planned obsolescence through computer programming first showed up in cars in the early 90's with BMW's . BMW actually wrote in time bombs that would create issues in the cars that would make them more expensive to fix then replace. Any car company that so tweeks the software that it has to be updated after the car is delivered is a car I dont want anything to do with.

So if you know so much about these and have so much confidence in them answer this. Stoichiometric ratios have not changed so why does the software need to be changed to improve idle smoothness and what not?

It all sounds like they trucks were not done right to begin with and that faults in the sooftware are really what is being updated.

And you think these things are abnormal because you don't deal with them.

Ever since cars have been invented, carburetors and ignition systems have needed adjustment. Sometimes during dealer prepk, and certainly throughout the life of the vehicle. How is this any different than software updates?

There's only ONE difference: YOU know how to work on the older stuff, so for you, it's no big deal. However, the vast majority of people today don't even know how to check their own tire pressure. Do you think they know how to adjust a carb or timing? Not a chance. So whether fuel and timing adjustments are made by turning screws, or electronics, what difference does it make? Both have to be done at a shop. But, you're just a typical old guy who's having trouble adjusting to new things, so you vilify it.

That being said, the ONLY problem with the modern electronics is the fact that it is usually proprietary. I see this as a big problem and have spoken out about it. However, at least OBDII allows us to diagnose most problems with the engine system. The government just needs to ammend the law to bring body control functions into the same realm of generic error coding.

The fact that you think stoiciometric ratios don't change shows how little you know of the facts. 14.7:1 is a vast oversimplification of the situation. 14.7:1 is the MASS ratio of fuel to air, and based on a laboratory grade fuel. Yet fuel is delivered on a volume basis. It's subject to changes in density, as well as composition of the fuel. The stoichiometric blend of 10% methanol fuel is NOT 14.7:1. You also have to adjust for production differences in fuel injectors, MAF calibrations, etc. The modern electronic engine controls do an incredible job of balancing all of these factors automatically, with ZERO input from the owner throughout the vehicle's life, with the exception of sensor faults, which a $100 code reader will tell you.

You must also understand how modern pollution control strategies greatly complicate matters. It's easy to make an engine run acceptably by setting it a little rich, and it all takes care of itself. That is not an option anymore. Combustion settings to achieve maximum power, maximum economy, and minimum emissions are all competing. The modern engine walks a fine line that a carbureted engine never could.

This discussion goes directly to your assertion that there is something *wrong* with these from the factory. There is not. The factory would have tuned them to meet the emissions requirements, and done the best they could on the other two factors. However, with more research and data from the field, power and economy improvements could be made while not trading off emissions.

If a software update is done to further improve idle, or shift feel when the old settings already gave performance FAR better than ANY carburetted engine could ever achieve, please explain to me how that's a fault?
 

muskyman

Explorer
I think we can all agree that simplicity is a virtue - but it's not the only virtue. Cars (and trucks) have got steadily more complex over the past 100 years, but undeniably better in almost all respects. One of the benefits of software control is that one can make incremental improvements to cars very cheaply. Your suggestion that the "trucks were not done right to begin with" is naive - there are thousands of combinations of settings that affect smoothness, performance, reliability, fuel consumption, emissions etc. They make improvements in the light of ongoing testing, and analysing customer feedback and service data from the trucks already in use. It's a virtue, not a vice.

Regarding the LR3's suitability for expeditions: every design philosophy has trade-offs, and the further one is likely to be from suitable facilities, the more weight one should logically attach to the virtues of simplicity and the ability to make trail repairs. However not all expeditions are that remote from well-equipped technical assistance, and for some people, it's not an illogical choice to decide that the comfort and safety and capability of an LR3 make it suitable for their particular expedition. Myself, I prefer a Defender, but while it's a preference based on a fair amount of experience, I don't pretend it's anything more than a personal opinion.

Btw... I have a mid/late nineties BMW 5 series that's done over 400,000km, and the only major failure has apparently been this timebomb you're referring to! Where do I read up more on this little gem? Planned obsolescence, as I understand it, is simply designing a vehicle with a planned lifespan in mind - i.e. not "overbuilding" it. Conspiracy theories apart, they're not likely to undertake the risk and expense of deliberately ensuring that their cars break after a certain mileage or age! (Making sure that fixing cars is uneconomical doesn't require a timebomb - just price the spare parts accordingly).

naive...LOL you can call it that all you like Michael I am far from naive. Why couldent they have done the same development before the released the model? The rules of combustion have not changed and the hardware in the trucks is not being changed so what is being changed is software that was not as good as it could have been when the truck was delivered.

As far as the "suitability for expeditions" you speak of I think you of all people should understand what I am talking about. The United States is a big place and being hundreds of miles from a dealer is not only common but in some areas of the country it is the rule. My comments about the LR3 on last weekends trip were pretty direct. It had a total software based snafu listing faults for every system you could think of. We were about 200 miles from the nearest dealer and 280 miles from the owners home dealer. Now the truck self healed over the next 24 hours but why would someone desire that added stress? By the way this also is a very dense area of rover ownership here in the midwest so the fact we were that far from a dealer is very common.

The BMW issues may be hard to read about because the guys that are deep enough in the fold to know about it are pretty tight lipped. I happen to be very good friends with one of the oldest most well known BMW tuners in the US. I have known him for 20 years and have worked on all kinds of projects with him. He personally wrote lots of the injection maps for the first aftermarket forced induction systems on the market for BMW's and has also written lots of the other aftermarket software chips sold by a number of companies for BMW's. The stuff he found as he cracked the code of these systems had him wide eyed and pissed off at the same time. Bmw isnt the only company out there doing it and thats why many people turn to open source after market options like megasquirt.

In a nutshell cars and trucks dont need to cost what they do and be as complicated as they have become to give the comfort and quality you speak of. The business has gone down a long bad road to ever more complex systems and that is a bad for the back country explorer or the person that wants to keep their car a long time. Disposable cars is going to be one of the biggest environmental problems in the future and current Land Rovers are a perfect example of that.
 

Antichrist

Expedition Leader
Ever since cars have been invented, carburetors and ignition systems have needed adjustment. Sometimes during dealer prepk, and certainly throughout the life of the vehicle. How is this any different than software updates?
You're missing the point. Anyone driving in to remote areas would, if they are properly preparing, become familiar with carburetor and ignition adjustment/repair (if they had these systems they'd probably already know how). But no matter how familiar I become with the computers on a car, it'll still cost me a small fortune to get the tools to work on/adjust/repair/update them.
And even if they can't do it themselves, they are a lot more likely to find someone in the middle of nowhere who can do that, than they are to find a dealer in the middle of nowhere.
 
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R_Lefebvre

Expedition Leader
I understand your point of view on that, and to some degree you are right. But I contest the assertion that older vehicles are better or more reliable because they are older. There's any number of things that can go wrong with an older vehicle, and unless you're towing around a trailer full of spare parts, you CANNOT always have every spare, every time. I really do not agree that the balance of probability of being stranded is any different.

Newer vehicles have some new failure modes, but they've also engineered out many older failure modes.
 

muskyman

Explorer
Automobiles are actually one of the most efficiently recycled consumer goods sold.


In the past they have been, the current patch of cars are rolling environmental hazards. The newest cars like the prius as a example dont even have systems in place to deal with the problems associated with disposal and recycling.

I just read a indepth look at the emergence of personal automobiles in asia and what impact it will have. The predictions based on the cureent culture over there is very bleak.
 

muskyman

Explorer
I understand your point of view on that, and to some degree you are right. But I contest the assertion that older vehicles are better or more reliable because they are older. There's any number of things that can go wrong with an older vehicle, and unless you're towing around a trailer full of spare parts, you CANNOT always have every spare, every time. I really do not agree that the balance of probability of being stranded is any different.

Newer vehicles have some new failure modes, but they've also engineered out many older failure modes.

Once again Rob you are missing the point. Older vehicles are in many cases better because they are simple not because they are older. why do you think the defender sold around the world is a very simple vehicle?...its because of the simplicity. There are many older vehicles that are horrible and would be failure nightmares for sure. But there are many that are built in such simple ways that failures of components that cant be carried are almost non existant. The components that do go bad like points and plugs and coils can be carried very easily. Many of the most reliable vehicles are diesel engined and all you need to carry is a spare starter and fuel filters.

argue all you like...simple wins
 

Antichrist

Expedition Leader
Newer vehicles have some new failure modes, but they've also engineered out many older failure modes.
Really? Outside of the carburetor and distributor/coil, what does a LR3 not have that my '79 Series had when it had a petrol engine.

Of course older vehicles could go wrong, I've not seen anyone deny that. But a 2009 has a lot that can go wrong that will, at best, force you to limp back and, at worst, leave you stranded plus everything that would do likewise on an older car, except as mentioned above.
 

proper4wd

Expedition Leader
Well I see yet another thread has degenerated into this same argument.

Can't everyone see that this represents a difference of philosophy amongst some here? There will be no end to the argument... try telling a Muslim that Mohammed isn't the last prophet or a Catholic that Jesus was not the savior of mankind.

LR3's are not for everyone. Neither are Series III's. If the LR3 does not jive with your personal idea of (insert Land Rover adjective here), then that's fine. But to say that it is a BAD vehicle overall is unjust. It is a BAD vehicle to suit your ideals. Others' ideals can certainly be different.

Can we please lay this to rest.
 

Antichrist

Expedition Leader
LR3's are not for everyone. Neither are Series III's. If the LR3 does not jive with your personal idea of (insert Land Rover adjective here), then that's fine. But to say that it is a BAD vehicle overall is unjust. It is a BAD vehicle to suit your ideals. Others' ideals can certainly be different.
Just to be clear, I'm not picking on the LR3 specifically and I said that in my first post. And I only compared it to a SIII because that's another Land Rover product. I could just have easily compared it to my 62, or my 95's. If it were a new Toyota, I'd compare it to an FJ40.

As for the different philosophy, I have no issues with someone who feels that, for their personal needs, the features of a new car outweigh the drawbacks, but to then turn around and say that that new car has fewer things to go wrong with it...well, that's just downright silly.

Lastly, there's plenty I don't like about how complicated my 95's are and that's one reason my D90 is getting a diesel transplant.
 
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muskyman

Explorer
Well I see yet another thread has degenerated into this same argument.

Can't everyone see that this represents a difference of philosophy amongst some here? There will be no end to the argument... try telling a Muslim that Mohammed isn't the last prophet or a Catholic that Jesus was not the savior of mankind.

LR3's are not for everyone. Neither are Series III's. If the LR3 does not jive with your personal idea of (insert Land Rover adjective here), then that's fine. But to say that it is a BAD vehicle overall is unjust. It is a BAD vehicle to suit your ideals. Others' ideals can certainly be different.

Can we please lay this to rest.

who has said it was bad overall?

I have stated they they are nice truck in alot of ways but they really have lost alot of what Land Rover has always stood for.

You may need to wake up and see that working at a dealer you are not looking at this stuff with un-biased eyes.

This is suposed to be a expedition site, thats what brought me here. Trucks going into the back country need to be built a certain way and some will be better then others as a base platform. Defend the LR3 all you like, truth be told the current US model of LR3's would not make a good true expedition truck. The talk of a diesel version coming here and of changes being made might change that fact but that is all yet to be seen.

And why do we want to lay this stuff to rest? If we are not going to talk about what makes a good expedition truck why are we here?
 
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