MG Metalworks Radius Arm/Coil Spring Axle Conversion for E-series Vans

[Betarocker]

The problem with the Ford radius arms is they barely set the proper caster angle with a stock setup. Adding even a 2" "levelling kit" results in death wobble unless using the cone shims of the upper ball joint to reset the angle

 

[goatherder]

Where are you finding axles in Washington with all the trimmings for under 1k dollars? I'm not being sarcastic when I ask this either.

Also, why do you need to move the oil filter?

I called a wrecker out by Shelton that has a bunch of Super Duty trucks looking for leaf spring front for the UJOR conversion. I told the guy what I was after and the price was $500+$100 core. Another $300 for Xfer case. I looked on car-part.com and there are several coil-spring SRW 4.10 ratio axles for well under a grand. A couple were at that same yard. So I'm ASSuming that if I show up with Benjamins I can get one out the door with everything I need for <$1000. If you show up with Benjamins you might be surprised at what all they'll throw in. I almost never pay the asking price for this kind of stuff.

Very interested in this coil spring setup. How 'bout some prices? Ala carte, por favor...

 

[Backcountry Pursuit]

So I'd need these brackets, front springs, shocks, a track bar, and a new pitman arm with a larger taper cut into it, and relocate the oil filter. Even with new ball joints, u-joints, unit bearings and all the seals in the axle I'm not seein' another 8 grand.

I priced out a conversion using U-joint's parts and came up with about $3500. What am I missing here?

Allow me to enlighten you. Can you do it cheaper than I have? Probably. However I've cheaped out on stuff earlier in my life and regretted it. Not this time and not with this project. I will rely on this van for my life for where I plan to take it.

Here's what I got in mine so far.

2015 F250 front axle. 47k miles 4.30 gears. $1900 + $200 shipping. That included absolutely everything. Axle, brakes, brake lines and mounting brackets, rotors and calipers, abs wiring and connectors, steering linkage, front driveline, radius arms, and all hardware. As MG will tell you all that stuff really adds up. Radius arm bolts are $11 a piece. Plus there's your time tracking all that crap down.

My personal experience with axles is if it's under a grand, it's missing most everything and in poor shape. I wanted one I could bolt in. I called on a ton of them. Somebody who hasn't pulled the trigger on an axle or seriously shopped for them is rolling their eyes at my $1900 purchase. All I've got say is have fun with your $1000 axle.

I spent a bunch of money at Ujoint. $3825 to be pretty exact.

6" rear springs $650
NV271 t case remanufactured $850
Fuel tank shortening kit $69
T case shift kit $289
Transmission cross member $259
Transmission electrical box $180
Rear wheel spacers $350
Rear stem adapters $60
Fox 2.0 shocks $520
Shipping $600 (springs and t case are heavy and have to go a long way)

Add in a $350 track bar and $90 for front springs.

After the font end is done get an alignment.

Then you have to get the gas tank welded, drive lines done, exhaust done. You'll also need the transmission converted. 5r100 is easier. 4r100 needs to be cracked open to install the new tail housing. While I am at it, it's getting totally rebuilt and beefed up.

Last and most certainly not least is MGs kit. Yep, it's just some metal brackets. But the man deserves to be paid for the hours and hours of engineering. His computer programs ain't free. His time building the parts ain't free. I haven't seen him publish a price yet so I'll let him publish it if he wants. I was happy to pay it for it will allow me to with my van. There's a lot of blue sky in the kit.

Oh and you'll want new wheels and tires. I dropped $2500

Enlightened?

 

[Backcountry Pursuit]

The problem with the Ford radius arms is they barely set the proper caster angle with a stock setup. Adding even a 2" "levelling kit" results in death wobble unless using the cone shims of the upper ball joint to reset the angle

MG engineered a bunch of castor into his kit. 5.5 degrees if I remember right.

 

[Jsweezy]

MG engineered a bunch of castor into his kit. 5.5 degrees if I remember right.

It can be 5 (mine is now) but with stock radius arms it's only 3. The only thing I noticed between the 5 and the 3 is that the steering wheel is stiffer. Other than that it's not much of a difference and on some days when I'm driving a lot I wish I had the 3 back.

Either way as you all can see this isn't a "stock setup" and never has been. This kit has had a lot of time and effort put into it which means it's gonna cost money. Go look at any other kit and all of their "proprietary" parts and compare it to the kit here and you will see the difference. I'm not even saying this because I have the kit, I have had many other Quadvan/Quigley van owners tell me they really like the characteristics of my van over theirs and when I look under their vans I understand why. Biggest brakes on a stock axle, RSC compliant without having to spend more money for it and the tightest turning radius, what's not to like?

As someone who drives this setup day in and day out I just want you all to know it's legit and I never regret putting it on.

 

[goatherder]

Allow me to enlighten you......... Enlightened?

Yes. The difference here is that you bought a bunch of parts that I won't need. I'm dealing with an E-450 DRW short bus...so I don't need any fuel tank mods, wheel spacers, rear springs, T-case shift kit (I'll use the electronic-shift), exhaust work. etc. I'll find a good used T-case and buy UJOR's adapter for the 5R100. And no new wheels - just a set of 6ea 255/85 Coopers.

Not knowing anything about MG's prices (hence my inquiry) I cannot say...but UJOR's price for his basic kit + jigs & bits seems very fair. There is alot of thinkage that goes into those brackets. I'm ASSuming MG's price is somewhat comparable. And he is just down the pike from me, so no $600 shipping.

Lastly, I have a pretty well equipped shop, with lathe, mill, plasma and all the welders. So I can do alot of things myself that others might farm out. And FWIW - I don't think $2K for your 47k mile axle w/ all the trimmings is such a bad deal. However, my bus has 150k on it, so I see no reason to spring for a super low mile axle. My truck has 260k and it's front axle is fine. I'm sure I can round up what I need for a decent price. So I'm still thinking around $3500 to do the 4wd conversion, + tires and a rear locker.

Ooo...I forgot. New front axle will have 8x170 lug pattern and no dually adapter...so that means new front wheels. Maybe I'll just buy a dually axle and 8x170 to 8x6.5 adapter so I can retain the same wheels. Hmm.

 

[Betarocker]

It can be 5 (mine is now) but with stock radius arms it's only 3. The only thing I noticed between the 5 and the 3 is that the steering wheel is stiffer. Other than that it's not much of a difference and on some days when I'm driving a lot I wish I had the 3 back.

Either way as you all can see this isn't a "stock setup" and never has been. This kit has had a lot of time and effort put into it which means it's gonna cost money. Go look at any other kit and all of their "proprietary" parts and compare it to the kit here and you will see the difference. I'm not even saying this because I have the kit, I have had many other Quadvan/Quigley van owners tell me they really like the characteristics of my van over theirs and when I look under their vans I understand why. Biggest brakes on a stock axle, RSC compliant without having to spend more money for it and the tightest turning radius, what's not to like?

As someone who drives this setup day in and day out I just want you all to know it's legit and I never regret putting it on.

My intent was not to criticize the design, just give another option. Since the design has taken caster into account, the requirement for adjustable radius arms is not required. It might be something to consider if a taller lift is desired.
My experiences have been on the pick-up side of the industry where height and tire size are the major criteria; ie. how the truck looks parked in the mall parking lot and not how the truck drive on and off road. Then they wonder why their $1000 lift results in a poopy ride and handling "But I have paired shocks on all corners".

I recently changed from my ancient leaf sprung 04 F350 to a 2016 F350. THe 04 had a full 7" Icon lift and even after all the years and abuse, it rode better than the stock 2016. A few weeks ago I installed a 7" lift onto the 2016; mix of Icon, OUO, and Fox.

 

[Backcountry Pursuit]

Yes. The difference here is that you bought a bunch of parts that I won't need. I'm dealing with an E-450 DRW short bus...

All the information in your second post would have been highly useful information to share in the first post to shed light on the angle you were coming from. Good on ya if you can get 'er done for that! I can't.

 

[Jsweezy]

My intent was not to criticize the design, just give another option. Since the design has taken caster into account, the requirement for adjustable radius arms is not required. It might be something to consider if a taller lift is desired.
My experiences have been on the pick-up side of the industry where height and tire size are the major criteria; ie. how the truck looks parked in the mall parking lot and not how the truck drive on and off road. Then they wonder why their $1000 lift results in a poopy ride and handling "But I have paired shocks on all corners".

I recently changed from my ancient leaf sprung 04 F350 to a 2016 F350. THe 04 had a full 7" Icon lift and even after all the years and abuse, it rode better than the stock 2016. A few weeks ago I installed a 7" lift onto the 2016; mix of Icon, OUO, and Fox.

I didn't think you were, I just didn't want people thinking they needed these and then realize it's built in. I had a 2011 F250 with a carli leveling kit and loved it. How do you like the new lift?

And actually I wonder if the Quigley guys can use those radius arms?!

 

[mgmetalworks]

My intent was not to criticize the design, just give another option. Since the design has taken caster into account, the requirement for adjustable radius arms is not required. It might be something to consider if a taller lift is desired.
My experiences have been on the pick-up side of the industry where height and tire size are the major criteria; ie. how the truck looks parked in the mall parking lot and not how the truck drive on and off road. Then they wonder why their $1000 lift results in a poopy ride and handling "But I have paired shocks on all corners".

I recently changed from my ancient leaf sprung 04 F350 to a 2016 F350. THe 04 had a full 7" Icon lift and even after all the years and abuse, it rode better than the stock 2016. A few weeks ago I installed a 7" lift onto the 2016; mix of Icon, OUO, and Fox.

I don't take what you said as criticism, I actually agree that there are other options for radius arms. I don't believe they're necessary though since an adequate amount of caster has been designed into this system by just lowering the rear mounting location. The "more articulation" arguement is an ok reason to upgrade but I don't think the price point for most aftermarket adjustable arms is that good of a flex/$ value. The stock bushings are quite compliant so you can get them to flex...a little...if that's what you're into. I've thought about designing a flex joint style arm like the new Ram trucks have and that would improve the flex a bit. I will probably hold off a little while to see how this kit sells and the feedback I get to see if it is worth the extra effort.

The super duty trucks suffer from, in my opinion, "engineering for the masses". Which basically means that you design something to work for 90+% of everyone's needs and the small percentage of folks who do something different with their trucks will suffer. Once you go outside of Ford's use model, you might (more like will) have an ill-handling truck. It isn't any fault to the radius arm suspension design, it is just outside of the optimal parameters for the suspension. The F-series isn't designed for an 8" lift and 39's, it is supposed to haul hay bales and bark dust and be a work horse. We live in American though and we gotta have the lifted 1-ton rollin' on 20's for grocery runs and occasionally moving your bro's mattress and dresser. Everyone who has a truck like that and hasn't addressed the caster will of course complain about ride and flood forums with death wobble stories. Set it up right though, and they handle like a dream (as dreamy as a 1-ton truck can be...let's not kid ourselves into thinking a truck can ride and handle like a Euro sedan...).

My plan all along was to design in enough caster that the steering was tight and it returned to center easily. I hated how my quadvan wandered all over the lane and was so lazy feeling in the steering. Now it tracks straight and is a pleasure to drive. All because it is now set up correctly.

 

[goatherder]

All the information in your second post would have been highly useful information to share in the first post ...

Yabbut...if I'd done that then you might not have written that nice long post filled with useful information that ANYBODY mulling over this swap would benefit from. That's the beauty (and sometimes the curse) of these here forum things. It all contributes to the knowledge base.

 

[Backcountry Pursuit]

Yabbut...if I'd done that then you might not have written that nice long post filled with useful information that ANYBODY mulling over this swap would benefit from. That's the beauty (and sometimes the curse) of these here forum things. It all contributes to the knowledge base.

Agreed. The other curse is being new to a forum with a low post count and no signature where people may make assumptions about your knowledge level and background. Many times those assumptions are wrong as they were in my case when I commented on your post. I am always happy to share my information because I have gained so much from this forum.

 

[24HOURSOFNEVADA]

I think the prices that Back Country Pursuit has listed for his axle are accurate and current, especially taking into consideration the price differences between the pre/post 2013's. I too have an MG front kit and I've seen front axle prices all over the place, however when you start talking to people on the phone they are usually missing ancillary components ranging from outer hubs to control arms. I also think that BCP has illustrated how quickly the unaccounted for items add up, its surprising.

 

[shenrie]

drove me a mg converted van today...all i can say is thanks a lot. now i gotta save up for another expensive damn project/modification



in all seriousness though. andrews van drove wonderfully. i didnt take it out on the interstate cause i had jabber jawed his ear off already and he needed to get on the road, but the in town stuff was noticeably better than my quigley. i drove the same exact route right after driving his van and hit all the same road imperfections at the same speeds (rr tracks, shoddy achd patchwork, terrible transitions around manhole covers and basic crappy overused local roads). we have the same shocks in front so the drive being smoother was most definitely the suspension setup, unless our spring rates are completely different. im running the moog springs ramsey suggested getting (pn#cc880s). can you tell me what springs you installed on his van? do you use different springs for different vans?

i believe i have more spring pack in the back of mine and guessing weigh a little more being an eb, but he has double shocks. so the rear was kinda a wash imho. but up front was noticeably smoother with your setup. all those imperfections just felt harsher in my van. steering felt more connected. didnt need as much input from the driver. turning radius felt about the same. my quigley has the open track arms that are prone to cracking if that makes any difference. only thing that surprised me was the brakes didnt feel as crisp as i assumed they would. BUT, that could have something to do with jumping out of a car with dual piston brembo calipers after a 900 mile roadtrip too. plus i didnt try any panic stops. didnt wanna shift his entire load

i took some time to crawl underneath to check out the install as well and it looks very nice. very straightforward and basic. look forward to helping tyson with his conversion for some first hand experience.

in short, nice freaking work mr mg!

 

[mgmetalworks]

Thanks Shenrie! Glad you liked it! You actually have the same springs as that van does if you're running the MOOGs you listed. The radius arm's length and the compliant factory bushings probably make up the remainder of the difference in ride as compared to your Quigley. I imagine that the bushings in your link arms aren't as forgiving so you're getting a feel for the road whether you want to or not. :sombrero: