more evidence that the Wrangler may be in for a change
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Dan Grec
Expedition Leader
I've been meaning to write this down for a while...
At Overland Expo there were two representatives from Jeep who are working on the new Wrangler (they said they're currently ankle-deep in it) - one was very much product and one was more senior and very much design. It sounded like the more senior person reports directly to Manley.
Sorry, I forget their names.
They told a good story....
At the first "new Wrangler meeting" at Jeep which I gather was not so long ago (~6-12 months) with obviously a LOT of people, the first thing up on the projector was a picture of a gravestone. It said "The person who killed the Wrangler" and the name was "Insert your name here".
The message was nobody at Jeep wants to be that person, and they're all very, VERY aware of it.
The more senior guy talked about how they're at max capacity right now, mostly because of "mall crawler" buyers.
He said he thinks that's just a fad, and Wrangler needs to stay true to it's heritage because once that fad ends, it's the enthusiasts that will keep it going sales wise.
(He didn't say this next bit - it's my take) If they water-down the Wrangler to cater to the Mall-crawlers, then the fad ends, they'll be dead. Safer to keep it as the enthusiasts want, and let fads be what fads are.
They asked us all for input about what we'd like to see on the new Wrangler, and some of their questions/thoughts showed the kind of things they're considering changing.
I'll list some of them below in random order.
1. Diesel. EVERYONE asked for it, and they said "we know, we know". They really wouldn't say yes or no, just that they know it's badly wanted. We talked about it for a LONG time, and they get it, they just wouldn't say anything either way, other than "We know people want it".
We didn't talk about any other engine options.
2. IFS - EVERYONE talked about how in the other brands (Land Rover, Toyota) the loyalists have abandoned the new models because you can't get a SFA anymore
All the enthusiasts just buy an old model, and that's what will happen to Wrangler if it goes to IFS.
They said they get it - and I believe them.
3. I asked about transmission options, they said absolutely for certain they'll have a standard option. (I was worried they might go auto-only) It's not even a question.
4. They asked how important the fold-down windscreen was to most people. Everyone said "Meh" and they agreed. I will not be surprised if it goes away.
5. They asked about things like on-board air, 35s, etc as options, obviously they're thinking about these things.
6. They asked if everyone wants a full-size spare and EVERYONE said yes, and they agreed.
7. People talked about how nice it is to rip out the carpet and hose it out, etc. and they absolutely agreed that's a must.
I think it was the more senior guy that said that's his favorite thing about his Wrangler. He took the carpet out years ago and never put it back, and loves it.
8. I (and others) talked about a "stripper" model - and they asked for clarification on what that would mean - I said minimum electronics, no power windows, no cruise, etc. etc. All the Rubicon running gear without any luxury items.
They were listening for sure, but I'm not holding out hope.
9. Everyone talked about how important it is to be able to heavily modify the Wrangler as each person sees fit. i.e. aftermarket everything.
They agreed.
10. They asked about doors off mirrors - everyone said that would be great, and they said it's something they'd like to figure out.
Towards the end the more senior guy said "On that suspension thing" (I assume IFS/SFA) "It's not going to happen. Don't worry about it".
I take that to mean Jeep will do everything they can to keep it SFA if they can for emissions/mileage/safety. I'm confident they will.
All in all it was a great Q&A session, and it really gave me confidence Jeep is listening to their customers and they're taking the Wrangler re-design very, very seriously.
They have a very good thing right now, they're not going to mess it up.
-Dan
It was cool to see Dave H. from AEV sitting in the back row, listening intently to everything that was said
At Overland Expo there were two representatives from Jeep who are working on the new Wrangler (they said they're currently ankle-deep in it) - one was very much product and one was more senior and very much design. It sounded like the more senior person reports directly to Manley.
Sorry, I forget their names.
They told a good story....
At the first "new Wrangler meeting" at Jeep which I gather was not so long ago (~6-12 months) with obviously a LOT of people, the first thing up on the projector was a picture of a gravestone. It said "The person who killed the Wrangler" and the name was "Insert your name here".
The message was nobody at Jeep wants to be that person, and they're all very, VERY aware of it.
The more senior guy talked about how they're at max capacity right now, mostly because of "mall crawler" buyers.
He said he thinks that's just a fad, and Wrangler needs to stay true to it's heritage because once that fad ends, it's the enthusiasts that will keep it going sales wise.
(He didn't say this next bit - it's my take) If they water-down the Wrangler to cater to the Mall-crawlers, then the fad ends, they'll be dead. Safer to keep it as the enthusiasts want, and let fads be what fads are.
They asked us all for input about what we'd like to see on the new Wrangler, and some of their questions/thoughts showed the kind of things they're considering changing.
I'll list some of them below in random order.
1. Diesel. EVERYONE asked for it, and they said "we know, we know". They really wouldn't say yes or no, just that they know it's badly wanted. We talked about it for a LONG time, and they get it, they just wouldn't say anything either way, other than "We know people want it".
We didn't talk about any other engine options.
2. IFS - EVERYONE talked about how in the other brands (Land Rover, Toyota) the loyalists have abandoned the new models because you can't get a SFA anymore
All the enthusiasts just buy an old model, and that's what will happen to Wrangler if it goes to IFS.
They said they get it - and I believe them.
3. I asked about transmission options, they said absolutely for certain they'll have a standard option. (I was worried they might go auto-only) It's not even a question.
4. They asked how important the fold-down windscreen was to most people. Everyone said "Meh" and they agreed. I will not be surprised if it goes away.
5. They asked about things like on-board air, 35s, etc as options, obviously they're thinking about these things.
6. They asked if everyone wants a full-size spare and EVERYONE said yes, and they agreed.
7. People talked about how nice it is to rip out the carpet and hose it out, etc. and they absolutely agreed that's a must.
I think it was the more senior guy that said that's his favorite thing about his Wrangler. He took the carpet out years ago and never put it back, and loves it.
8. I (and others) talked about a "stripper" model - and they asked for clarification on what that would mean - I said minimum electronics, no power windows, no cruise, etc. etc. All the Rubicon running gear without any luxury items.
They were listening for sure, but I'm not holding out hope.
9. Everyone talked about how important it is to be able to heavily modify the Wrangler as each person sees fit. i.e. aftermarket everything.
They agreed.
10. They asked about doors off mirrors - everyone said that would be great, and they said it's something they'd like to figure out.
Towards the end the more senior guy said "On that suspension thing" (I assume IFS/SFA) "It's not going to happen. Don't worry about it".
I take that to mean Jeep will do everything they can to keep it SFA if they can for emissions/mileage/safety. I'm confident they will.
All in all it was a great Q&A session, and it really gave me confidence Jeep is listening to their customers and they're taking the Wrangler re-design very, very seriously.
They have a very good thing right now, they're not going to mess it up.
-Dan
It was cool to see Dave H. from AEV sitting in the back row, listening intently to everything that was said
Comanche Scott
Expedition Leader
If I ruled the world of Wrangler engineers...
I would like to see them ditch the frame, and make the unit-body from alloyed aluminum. Lose the fold down windshield, and provide better roll over protection in the A pillar. A larger windshield would be greatly appreciated as well. And get rid of those silly "Semi-Tractor" mirrors that cause all that wind noise.
I'd want the removable hardtop to bolt directly to the top of the OHG hoops. that way a rack could be bolted through the top, instead of having those stupid legs with "stabilizers". I mean who has feet small enough to use the "ladders" without kicking and scratching the top any way?
If they can come up with a competent long travel IFS/IRS I'm fine with that. It would give us Rack and Pinion steering, and eliminate the crabbing when flexed out.
They could make the front and rear quarter panels accept a range of fenders that would allow installing tires up to 40" diameter without a lift. That would be equivalent to a 4" lift on my current JKURX, for just the cost of a set of fenders, tires, gears and a re-flash at my friendly Jeep dealer.
And while they are at it, I really want an i-4 diesel, dad-gummit! That V6 crowds the engine compartment terribly. Hard to install OBA, Welder, Burrito Cooker, etc., under the JK's hood. I don't care about more power or economy, I just want a place to cook my food while running down the trail.
If we don't think like stick in the mud "purists", there is a lot that could be done to make the Wrangler the unequivocal leader in expedition vehicles. :victory:
I would like to see them ditch the frame, and make the unit-body from alloyed aluminum. Lose the fold down windshield, and provide better roll over protection in the A pillar. A larger windshield would be greatly appreciated as well. And get rid of those silly "Semi-Tractor" mirrors that cause all that wind noise.
I'd want the removable hardtop to bolt directly to the top of the OHG hoops. that way a rack could be bolted through the top, instead of having those stupid legs with "stabilizers". I mean who has feet small enough to use the "ladders" without kicking and scratching the top any way?
If they can come up with a competent long travel IFS/IRS I'm fine with that. It would give us Rack and Pinion steering, and eliminate the crabbing when flexed out.
They could make the front and rear quarter panels accept a range of fenders that would allow installing tires up to 40" diameter without a lift. That would be equivalent to a 4" lift on my current JKURX, for just the cost of a set of fenders, tires, gears and a re-flash at my friendly Jeep dealer.
And while they are at it, I really want an i-4 diesel, dad-gummit! That V6 crowds the engine compartment terribly. Hard to install OBA, Welder, Burrito Cooker, etc., under the JK's hood. I don't care about more power or economy, I just want a place to cook my food while running down the trail.
If we don't think like stick in the mud "purists", there is a lot that could be done to make the Wrangler the unequivocal leader in expedition vehicles. :victory:
Lee_N
Member
It's hip to be square! I've grown to like the simplicity of my 1st Gen (1989) Wrangler and it's flatter hood due to the square headlights.
actually, as a former patriot FDII owner, I can tell you first hand that its very much a jeep even though it does not have a solid front or rear axle. I loved the rig, just never had enough room for the family and gear. Now, I made a primo mistake in trading it in on my wrangler instead of our mazda 5. But the patriot is an awesome very capable rig.
Hilldweller
SE Expedition Society
I just got a survey email from Maritz; offered me $10 for my opinions if I "qualified".
I answered a few initial questions, got past the first two rounds, and then got disqualified. After I answered diesel and not electric or hybrid....
It also didn't understand that I don't intend to "replace" my Jeep. Might add to the stable but not replace.
So, how about a start/stop/hybrid Wrangler?
I answered a few initial questions, got past the first two rounds, and then got disqualified. After I answered diesel and not electric or hybrid....
It also didn't understand that I don't intend to "replace" my Jeep. Might add to the stable but not replace.
So, how about a start/stop/hybrid Wrangler?
The entire YJ era was a misstep. Chrysler didn't get it together with the Jeep brand until 1997, and the current success is based on the work that was done under the Daimler era so I'm not sure why anyone would expect excellence moving forward. We saw nothing smart or prudent come out of Cerberus and now the Fiat/Chrysler relationship over the last few years.
Justincredible
Adventurer
Hybrid? No.
Electric? absolutely, as long as it can go 300 miles between charges.
An electric Wrangler may not be the best thing right now, but in the near future it could be amazing.
Tesla's superchargers can top off their batteries in 30 minutes and it's only going to get better, and as solar technology progresses a large flat roof like the Wrangler's would be ideal for charging when you stupidly run dry in the middle of the desert.
Comanche Scott
Expedition Leader
Oh hell no!
If they want a tree hugger version, include a tree saver strap in the Mopar Trail kit.
Hilldweller
SE Expedition Society
Ya know, I gotta talk to him....
It was cool to see Dave H. from AEV sitting in the back row, listening intently to everything that was said
They offer an "upgraded H4 headlight system" on their JKs. I took a look at one at my local dealer.
They're the unrated illegal IPF nightmare product. :Wow1:
The worst performing thing I've ever tested. So bogus that it has a fake certification marking on it to simulate ECE compliance.
I wonder if he even realizes it or if it's just an afterthought item?
Omar Brannstrom
Adventurer
Body-on-Frame vs. Unibody Construction
"Because unibody vehicles distribute stress throughout the entire vehicle, they are thought to "wear out" and develop cracks more easily. Eventually, doors become hard to close, and body panel fitment starts to become a problem. "
From http://jalopnik.com/this-is-what-makes-a-vehicle-unstoppable-off-road-512501606
"Toyota's Motoharu Araya said to AutomotiveNews, the brand's global truck and SUV executive chief engineer. “Some want to drive off-road, some want to tow with their families, and some want to commute. Towing and durability are very difficult with a monocoque vehicle.”
From http://www.egmcartech.com/2013/07/3...amant-about-sticking-with-body-on-frame-suvs/
http://www.web2carz.com/autos/car-tech/2332/body-on-frame-vs-unibody-construction
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body-on-frame
"Because unibody vehicles distribute stress throughout the entire vehicle, they are thought to "wear out" and develop cracks more easily. Eventually, doors become hard to close, and body panel fitment starts to become a problem. "
From http://jalopnik.com/this-is-what-makes-a-vehicle-unstoppable-off-road-512501606
"Toyota's Motoharu Araya said to AutomotiveNews, the brand's global truck and SUV executive chief engineer. “Some want to drive off-road, some want to tow with their families, and some want to commute. Towing and durability are very difficult with a monocoque vehicle.”
From http://www.egmcartech.com/2013/07/3...amant-about-sticking-with-body-on-frame-suvs/
http://www.web2carz.com/autos/car-tech/2332/body-on-frame-vs-unibody-construction
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body-on-frame
Omar Brannstrom
Adventurer
It seems that a Unibody Construction can be strong but at wich cost, wouldnt that make the Wrangler more expensive?
I do think that a Body on frame is stronger. And I do wonder if thoose Unibody vehicles get pounded as hard as Body on frame vehicles
I do think that a Body on frame is stronger. And I do wonder if thoose Unibody vehicles get pounded as hard as Body on frame vehicles
Dan Grec
Expedition Leader
I spoke with him at length later on.
It's obvious he takes and enormous amount of pride in his work, company and people.
I'd be shocked to find out he's knowingly using something that's sub-par.
Post a thread on the AEV forums, he'll reply.
-Dan
Comanche Scott
Expedition Leader
That is very old thinking. New processes and metallurgy have totally changed the game.
For just one of thousands of examples, read through theksmiths build and use of his '04 Grand Cherokee.
While the G.C. uses alloyed steel in it's unit-body construction, it is still old technology compared to what mfgs are using today.
Scott
The Swiss
Expedition Leader
Well, for what it's worth: I talked in April this year to a Chrysler engineer working on the next generation Wranglers and he said the it will have beam axles (whatever that means). He also said that their goal is not to make a new Wrangler but a better Wrangler. They are well aware of the heritage of this vehicle.