More proof that Jeep is the leader in 4x4 overland vehicles

marcall

Observer
It's sad the center of your off road world is the US. They didn't stop importing the defender here because it was out dates. They stopped importing it because our Gov wanted them to put airbags in it and LR told them to pound sand. Once again just because Toyota only imports super luxo cruisers here doesn't mean jeep is more popular in the rest of the world. Being able to "build" a jeep for less money than a 200 series costs doesn't prove anything. With the right amount of money a geo metro could be built into a bad *** offroad vehicle. Does that prove how amazing geos are? No. Take your jeep to Africa or any other third world country and try to order parts from chryco and see how much support they give you. Jeeps are a laughable joke when it comes to reliability and support ability. Please don't try to say that your jeep has been reliable. Bending reliable driving down a paved road and wheeled every once In a while is not the same as loving it's whole life off road and still running around reliably. Last point I have. Jeeps is the last company to offer lockers. Toyota and Mercedes has offered lockers for 20 to 30 years before jeep did.


"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials."
— George Mason, in Debates in Virginia Convention on Ratification of the Constitution, Elliot, Vol. 3, June 16, 1788

Ok , First off what is wrong with having ones "off roading center" as you put it based in the country they live in? Should it be any different? I understand in Europe there is a lot more travel between countries but that is not soeasy here in the USA. Not everyone has the financial means (especially in a country the size of America) to travel abroad nor do they necessarily have the time. Let me give myself as an example. I am an auto mechanic at a small 2 man shop. We get 2 weeks off per year plus a 3 day weekend if a holiday falls on a monday or friday. The two weeks are not consecutive , it is one in the summar and one in the winter. No way am I able to just take the luxery of weeks off, or to "drop out" and travel for a year or something. This is the cards I'm dealt with in life and I'm not complaining, just giving you an example. I would find it odd in my case (or many people like me) to have my "off roading world" cenetered in places I will never visit. I am however aware of other places. I routinely buy Australian 4wd magazine and I own the Land Rover Book "60 yerars of the workhorse" I find the diversity of 4 wheeling/off roading as well as travel adventure to be above and beyond any other country when you consider we have anything from sand dunes to swamps to 14, 000 foot mountain passes and our Camping opportunities can be extremly remote unlike so much I see in europe.

I imagine any vehicle not from a given continent will have more trouble obtaining parts for than a vehicle from that continent. Try getting land Rover parts here in America, unless you're in a major distribution point you're probably waiting a few days to get something shipped across the country (Say living in Arizona and getting a part shipped from the east coast).

I'm currently an auto mechanic and have been employed as one since 1993. In my experience the Jeep platform is everybit as reliable as any other make, expecially the pre 2005's (when they started putting in v6's instead of I6's and did IFS to all but the TJ's/JK's. Although to be fair I do not see many of those having problems any more than new Toyotas) and I'm talking Cherokees, Cj's, TJ's, Mj's, Willy's the whole nine yards. The biggest thing is that they are easy to work on and they can be run into the ground and still keep running. Many parts are interchangeable between models and years.

I myself drive a 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee. I'm a fan of older Toyotas and Land Rovers as well. the older Jeeps had a minimalist quality to them I find very appealing, more so than any other vehicle brand I've personally seen in person. That in my mind makes a great "backcountry" machine. One that has a good chance of being "jerry rigged" when need be, because face it they are all going to break and have problems.

It seems at least from looking at wikipedia that Jeeps have had a presence around the world for some time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeep#Jeeps_around_the_world

For the North American continent and our diversity of terrain it's a perfect vehichle.

As far as lockers go I do not believe any company has offered a true locker until very recently (i think Jeep Rubicons had the option of the Eaton electric locker from the factory around 2004). All the others have been LIMITED SLIPS, very similar but not a true 100 percent locker. That is a moot point though. If you are familar with any American backcountry or the history of Jeeps then just think for a second about all those 2 track "roads" in the mountains of Colorado, or any place but let's use Colorado as an example. Rocky , muddy narraow shelf roads at 10, 12,000 feet and I'm confident those were first driven by Jeeps with open differential front and rear and little skinny military tires to boot! Beyond that most trucks in America up until the late 80's were generally Open/Open from the factory Jeep offered a limited slip back in the early 70's, maybe late 60's but it was generally gearing back then.

Unless you're living in the Australian outback or Mongolia, or some such place to say Jeeps only get driven off road occasionally or driven down a paved raod (in your final paragraph) is a "joke" as you put it compared to a vehicle living it's life off road then I think you don't have any clue into the American history of Off roading. Where are you based by the way?

I've worked on some 1970's Land Cruisers from a Ranch up in the mountains near Tucson Arizona where I live, these were ranch "trucks" and were driven as such their whole life. two of them needed significant welding along the frames where the steering gearbox mounts because of stress cracks (this was about 15 years ago so my memory is not as clear but I believe they also needed the radiator supports welded and one might've needed firewall work where the clutch master sits). They all have problems is my point.


Finally the whole "Overlanding" LABEL is kinda ridiculous. I joined the forum because I like the outdoors and travel (even if it;s just virtual travel and adventure). but this mentality that you (not you literally but some members in general) view yourself as an "overlander" is corny. In my mind Overlanding is just a label and a relatively new concept, in the past we knew it as "traveling" or "exploring", or maybe an explorer. My point is that just because one might take a two week or a two month trip (no matter what the details are, be it traveling in ones own state or in another part of the world) does not make you a "Overlander" no more than the guy going camping overnight an hour from his home does not make him not an "Overlander".

I'm heading to Colorado with my Jeep for a week in late July and I'll be camping out for three nights and probably motel it two nights. I will hike, explorer Ghost towns/mining camps and do about 2,000 miles total trip, just me and the dog. I will not be "overlanding". i will be going on a vacation.....a road trip...camping......
 

marktutone

Adventurer
I hate to throw fuel on the fire here. Consider what any of these vehicles will be like in 53 years. My 1961 CJ3B still get's me around well and it has been doing so for over 23 years.
Buy what you want, run it and be quiet, please...

You are right. I do get a little defensive. I live in the silicon valley and all ever hear is how terrible American made cars are. I am a biomedical equipment technician and in my shop every single person drives a Japanese car. They actually gave me a real crazy look when I told them I own a Jeep. My brother in law just turned 300000 on his Ford van without a single major problem. I was telling my coworker about how his vehicle turned 300000 and before I could finish he asked me what model of Toyota was he driving. I told him it was a Ford and all he could say is no way, no way.
You are right arguing about this and that is dumb.
 

marktutone

Adventurer
I hate to throw fuel on the fire here. Consider what any of these vehicles will be like in 53 years. My 1961 CJ3B still get's me around well and it has been doing so for over 23 years.
Buy what you want, run it and be quiet, please...

You are right. I do get a little defensive. I live in the silicon valley and all ever hear is how terrible American made cars are. I am a biomedical equipment technician and in my shop every single person drives a Japanese car. They actually gave me a real crazy look when I told them I own a Jeep. My brother in law just turned 300000 on his Ford van without a single major problem. I was telling my coworker about how his vehicle turned 300000 and before I could finish he asked me what model of Toyota was he driving. I told him it was a Ford and all he could say is no way, no way.
You are right arguing about this and that is dumb.
 

Arktikos

Explorer
I hear you. I would have to say that on the 200 series the IFS system is also weak. Actually it is not that jeep is king that I am defending it is the Toyota crowd who claim that their vehicles are so far superior to the jeep. ...

Yes, I was referring to the 200 series not the FJ Cruiser, because clearly that's the rig you were directing your comments towards by referencing the $70K price tag. Jeep owns the SWB off road platform in the US, no question, and their new 4 door Rubicons are cool looking, relatively affordable and very capable off road. Therefore, they will deservedly win over a large share of buyers looking for a larger wagon 4x4.
Ok, so the Jeep brand doesn't need to be "defended", as they're doing quite well, thank you. Just don't overlook or outright lie about some pretty obvious strengths that other vehicles have. Land Cruisers have very beefy drivetrains, among other things, and Toyota has a well deserved reputation for building quality vehicles all the way through their model lineup.
 

marktutone

Adventurer
Yes, I was referring to the 200 series not the FJ Cruiser, because clearly that's the rig you were directing your comments towards by referencing the $70K price tag. Jeep owns the SWB off road platform in the US, no question, and their new 4 door Rubicons are cool looking, relatively affordable and very capable off road. Therefore, they will deservedly win over a large share of buyers looking for a larger wagon 4x4.
Ok, so the Jeep brand doesn't need to be "defended", as they're doing quite well, thank you. Just don't overlook or outright lie about some pretty obvious strengths that other vehicles have. Land Cruisers have very beefy drivetrains, among other things, and Toyota has a well deserved reputation for building quality vehicles all the way through their model lineup.
I agree with your statement. I own a FZJ80. It is a tank.A couple of points though. At present American made cars need defending. The other thing is that Toyota seems to be heading in the wrong direction. Every person in this forum would buy a new modern FJ40 with part time 4wd, locking diffs and a nice 4 cylinder turbo charged diesel enging. Also it should come in 2 door and 4 door. The world would go crazy.
 

RoyJ

Adventurer
Ok , First off what is wrong with having ones "off roading center" as you put it based in the country they live in? Should it be any different? I understand in Europe there is a lot more travel between countries but that is not soeasy here in the USA. Not everyone has the financial means (especially in a country the size of America) to travel abroad nor do they necessarily have the time..........................................................................................I'm heading to Colorado with my Jeep for a week in late July and I'll be camping out for three nights and probably motel it two nights. I will hike, explorer Ghost towns/mining camps and do about 2,000 miles total trip, just me and the dog. I will not be "overlanding". i will be going on a vacation.....a road trip...camping......

Read through your long post, some nice points you brought up that many seem to forget.

Even though we all dream of a multi-continent expedition with a dedicated built-up Defender 110 or Land Cruiser 70/80, the reality, as you said, is much different. I'm willing to bet if we take a poll of ALL the members on this board, less than 10% have done a multi-country trans-continental "expedition". Less than 1% have gone around the world (Euro-Asia-Africa-America).

Does that make the rest of us hard working folks "posers"? I think not. Rather, we're celebrating the spirit of those who can overland internationally, in our humble Jeeps/Suburbans/F150s, right here at home.

Out of my little stable (Intrepid, Ram 1500, Z06, Explorer, and an old Prevost), the lowly Ford Explorer is my expedition truck of choice. It doesn't have a bullbar, nor a RTT, or even a winch. It's got stock suspension, and runs 30.5" tires. But guess what, loaded up with my dirt bike on the hitch, camping gear, 100L of water, and an air mattress, I can head out into just about every corner of the 32,000 kms of back roads here in beautiful British Columbia, and have a blast with my buddies fishing, camping, and hitting the single track trails.

Would a 110 look cooler doing it? Sure, but I'm not about to drop $60k - $90k on one (as a bonus, we can import them as new as 1999 in Canada, still not worth it)
 

thedjjack

Dream it build it
Funny you say that. My brother In laws tractor died. The injector pump went out and that's all she wrote. That's your basic mechanical equipment. Won't be fixed with bailing wire.

all I can say is your brother is no backyard mechanic then... I guess it would be an easy fix with 15 sensors and electronic injection system???

When I have the mechanics on my work boat in the salt water plugging in computers trying to figure out why my $60,000 worth of motors are throwing a code and going into shut down... At the same time some 60 year old fishing boat with 25,000 hours fires up in a cloud of smoke and motors of with the pistons slapping in the bores.

If you think Toyota, Jeep or what ever is the best great go buy it and enjoy the best... Personally, I do not buy into single manufactures... I would rather a OM617 mated to SM420 mated to NP205 for reliability with Toyota or Dana60s but each their own... Body maybe an astro van or something usefull...and soccer mom..

DISCLAIMER: My current "RIG" is a 1983 G3500 B Class RV with a 6.2L Diesel that probably sees harder more remote roads then most the rigs on here and when it reaches the end of the "Road" my pack and boots take over.... Boots and Pack infinite MPG, can handle steep grades such as mountains, needs no road or trail, no sand, little mud issues, always start, boots are optional, easy to import into any country, no permits, no insurance, little slow but makes it about the journey.... Maybe we should all leave the 4x4 at the mall...
 
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wreckdiver1321

Overlander
I get a kick out people like you that make dumb comments as if you are not a “fanboy” Come on admit it. You are a closet fanboy. Really no one can see you admit it.

I am a huge fan of my truck, yes. Because it suits my needs very well and I just plain like it. But I don't go around on the forums proclaiming that it is the end-all-be-all perfection of the overlanding world. Because it's not, and it would be stupid of me to think otherwise. Everything has its faults, everything has its strengths. I would like to make a couple points.

Jeep is not the "world leader." Trust me, it's just not. You can bang on about sales figures and aftermarket purchases until you're blue in the face, but it doesn't make it true. Sure, they're a huge thing in the US. But in the rest of the world, Toyota is what most people think of for an overland platform. They are robust, proven, and reliable. Look at how many actual expeditions have a Land Cruiser or a HiLux at their core. It's not because of the cool factor or because they are the most cost effective. It's because they are robust, capable, and reliable, and they have a worldwide service and parts network that is something to behold. There is a very good reason they have the reputation that they do.

Your arguments about overcomplexity and "weak" IFS just don't hold water. Complexity makes no difference in terms of reliability, it's how it's built. Toyota and Land Rover proved that in the early 2000s. The Disco IIs were poorly put together, while the 100 Series (not exactly a paragon of simplicity) was very well made. Each is a very capable vehicle, but the LC is the top choice because it's so damned reliable. The old, "the way they used to do it is better" argument is a fallacy. Thank god NASA doesn't think like this. As for the so-called weak IFS, that argument has been so shot full of holes I don't understand why people are still going on about it. It's been proven worldwide. If it was really as weak as every throttle happy offroader says it is, the auto industry would have dumped it long ago.

The whole Jeep did it first thing is a little silly too. I am by no means belittling their accomplishment, but just because they did it first doesn't mean they did it best. If the Wright Brothers had had their way, we'd still be flexing the entire wing of an airplane to make it bank instead of the much stronger and more efficient aileron systems used in modern aircraft.

Nobody really cares about which vehicle is the foremost leader in overland vehicles, except maybe the manufacturers. The thing that makes this community so diverse is the many different approaches to the passtime. One guy likes Jeeps, while another cruises in a decked out Tacoma. Yet another just adores his VW syncro. The important thing is to drive what YOU are happy with and what is the best for YOU. Is my Frontier the best overlanding platform for everybody? No, because different peop have different needs and expectations. The terrain I travel over is probably very different from the next person, as is my driving style and what I carry with me. I don't care if it's the best manufacturer or the most popular, which it isn't. But it's the best for me, for what I want, and for what I do. That's what matters.

Oh, and don't try to accuse me of being some sort of Jeep hater. I've driven enough of them to know what they're capable of. I have a buddy that's got an old Willy's that I think is just the bee's knees. I've helped a friend build one hell of a cool old Grand Cherokee. I enjoy them, they're just not for me.
 

wreckdiver1321

Overlander
You are all wrong. The most durable, powerful, long-distancing, sexy, masculine, overlanding, panty-dropping, expedition, 4x4, dirt champion out there, is my 99 Forester with Roofrack. Go back to bed, and stop crying to each other.

:safari-rig: Look, ExPo even has a representation of it in rough form.

Ha! You are right. Look at that sexy thing! :D
 

marktutone

Adventurer
I am a huge fan of my truck, yes. Because it suits my needs very well and I just plain like it. But I don't go around on the forums proclaiming that it is the end-all-be-all perfection of the overlanding world. Because it's not, and it would be stupid of me to think otherwise. Everything has its faults, everything has its strengths. I would like to make a couple points.

Jeep is not the "world leader." Trust me, it's just not. You can bang on about sales figures and aftermarket purchases until you're blue in the face, but it doesn't make it true. Sure, they're a huge thing in the US. But in the rest of the world, Toyota is what most people think of for an overland platform. They are robust, proven, and reliable. Look at how many actual expeditions have a Land Cruiser or a HiLux at their core. It's not because of the cool factor or because they are the most cost effective. It's because they are robust, capable, and reliable, and they have a worldwide service and parts network that is something to behold. There is a very good reason they have the reputation that they do.

Your arguments about overcomplexity and "weak" IFS just don't hold water. Complexity makes no difference in terms of reliability, it's how it's built. Toyota and Land Rover proved that in the early 2000s. The Disco IIs were poorly put together, while the 100 Series (not exactly a paragon of simplicity) was very well made. Each is a very capable vehicle, but the LC is the top choice because it's so damned reliable. The old, "the way they used to do it is better" argument is a fallacy. Thank god NASA doesn't think like this. As for the so-called weak IFS, that argument has been so shot full of holes I don't understand why people are still going on about it. It's been proven worldwide. If it was really as weak as every throttle happy offroader says it is, the auto industry would have dumped it long ago.

The whole Jeep did it first thing is a little silly too. I am by no means belittling their accomplishment, but just because they did it first doesn't mean they did it best. If the Wright Brothers had had their way, we'd still be flexing the entire wing of an airplane to make it bank instead of the much stronger and more efficient aileron systems used in modern aircraft.

Nobody really cares about which vehicle is the foremost leader in overland vehicles, except maybe the manufacturers. The thing that makes this community so diverse is the many different approaches to the passtime. One guy likes Jeeps, while another cruises in a decked out Tacoma. Yet another just adores his VW syncro. The important thing is to drive what YOU are happy with and what is the best for YOU. Is my Frontier the best overlanding platform for everybody? No, because different peop have different needs and expectations. The terrain I travel over is probably very different from the next person, as is my driving style and what I carry with me. I don't care if it's the best manufacturer or the most popular, which it isn't. But it's the best for me, for what I want, and for what I do. That's what matters.

Oh, and don't try to accuse me of being some sort of Jeep hater. I've driven enough of them to know what they're capable of. I have a buddy that's got an old Willy's that I think is just the bee's knees. I've helped a friend build one hell of a cool old Grand Cherokee. I enjoy them, they're just not for me.

Points well taken. Thanks
Once I was watching this video of these guys running completely outfitted Land Rovers running up a narrow dirt road in the middle of the jungle. It looked like a very hard road to navigate. Then out nowhere this little Toyota Corolla with people on the inside and the outside navigating the same road. I got a good laugh at that.
I owned a 1992 Pathfinder that I loved. I took that thing on triple black diamond trails. The only thing that busted on it was I guess you call it the A arm for the IFS. I replaced it with some big after market A arms from Calmini. I did all the work myself. Since that incident of getting stranded because of the A arm it has left a bitter taste in my mouth. Yes I have seen Dana 30's and 35's broken on the trail but these people were running 35 and 40 inch tires.
I just want to thank anyone who posted or read any part of this thread. I love knowing there is so many people passionate about the vehicles that get us out into the wild.
out0.jpgout1.jpgout2.jpg
 

marktutone

Adventurer
all I can say is your brother is no backyard mechanic then... I guess it would be an easy fix with 15 sensors and electronic injection system???

When I have the mechanics on my work boat in the salt water plugging in computers trying to figure out why my $60,000 worth of motors are throwing a code and going into shut down... At the same time some 60 year old fishing boat with 25,000 hours fires up in a cloud of smoke and motors of with the pistons slapping in the bores.

If you think Toyota, Jeep or what ever is the best great go buy it and enjoy the best... Personally, I do not buy into single manufactures... I would rather a OM617 mated to SM420 mated to NP205 for reliability with Toyota or Dana60s but each their own... Body maybe an astro van or something usefull...and soccer mom..

DISCLAIMER: My current "RIG" is a 1983 G3500 B Class RV with a 6.2L Diesel that probably sees harder more remote roads then most the rigs on here and when it reaches the end of the "Road" my pack and boots take over.... Boots and Pack infinite MPG, can handle steep grades such as mountains, needs no road or trail, no sand, little mud issues, always start, boots are optional, easy to import into any country, no permits, no insurance, little slow but makes it about the journey.... Maybe we should all leave the 4x4 at the mall...

Keep the soccer mom, you will have more fun.
 
I have said this before and I will say it again.

NO other vehicle is as durable, "world wide" accepted and as trusted as the Toyota Hilux and Land cruiser.

Anyone who has spend any semblance of time over sees can attest to this. The Jeep cannot withstand harsh conditions and will fail.

I love jeeps, but they are not commercial grade products regardless of how many v-8s you can show horn under the hood.

Up armor a vehicle and see how long it lasts. Go speak to the Bosnian mechanics scattered all over the middle east on which truck can handle real world conditions day in and day out. None of them are daimler products unless it is a diesel Mercedes 200 or 300 series car from the 80's/late 70's.

No brand loyalty. No hatred of specific makes or models...heck...Toyotas are boring! But that is what they are supposed to be. They are tools for the job and nothing more.

My opinion is based on basic observation and the operation of different vehicles in a myriad of regions on the planet, and the opinion of others who trust their life with these vehicles. Yes, WAR zones.
 

toylandcruiser

Expedition Leader
Ok , First off what is wrong with having ones "off roading center" as you put it based in the country they live in? Should it be any different? I understand in Europe there is a lot more travel between countries but that is not soeasy here in the USA. Not everyone has the financial means (especially in a country the size of America) to travel abroad nor do they necessarily have the time. Let me give myself as an example. I am an auto mechanic at a small 2 man shop. We get 2 weeks off per year plus a 3 day weekend if a holiday falls on a monday or friday. The two weeks are not consecutive , it is one in the summar and one in the winter. No way am I able to just take the luxery of weeks off, or to "drop out" and travel for a year or something. This is the cards I'm dealt with in life and I'm not complaining, just giving you an example. I would find it odd in my case (or many people like me) to have my "off roading world" cenetered in places I will never visit. I am however aware of other places. I routinely buy Australian 4wd magazine and I own the Land Rover Book "60 yerars of the workhorse" I find the diversity of 4 wheeling/off roading as well as travel adventure to be above and beyond any other country when you consider we have anything from sand dunes to swamps to 14, 000 foot mountain passes and our Camping opportunities can be extremly remote unlike so much I see in europe.

I imagine any vehicle not from a given continent will have more trouble obtaining parts for than a vehicle from that continent. Try getting land Rover parts here in America, unless you're in a major distribution point you're probably waiting a few days to get something shipped across the country (Say living in Arizona and getting a part shipped from the east coast).

I'm currently an auto mechanic and have been employed as one since 1993. In my experience the Jeep platform is everybit as reliable as any other make, expecially the pre 2005's (when they started putting in v6's instead of I6's and did IFS to all but the TJ's/JK's. Although to be fair I do not see many of those having problems any more than new Toyotas) and I'm talking Cherokees, Cj's, TJ's, Mj's, Willy's the whole nine yards. The biggest thing is that they are easy to work on and they can be run into the ground and still keep running. Many parts are interchangeable between models and years.

I myself drive a 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee. I'm a fan of older Toyotas and Land Rovers as well. the older Jeeps had a minimalist quality to them I find very appealing, more so than any other vehicle brand I've personally seen in person. That in my mind makes a great "backcountry" machine. One that has a good chance of being "jerry rigged" when need be, because face it they are all going to break and have problems.

It seems at least from looking at wikipedia that Jeeps have had a presence around the world for some time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeep#Jeeps_around_the_world

For the North American continent and our diversity of terrain it's a perfect vehichle.

As far as lockers go I do not believe any company has offered a true locker until very recently (i think Jeep Rubicons had the option of the Eaton electric locker from the factory around 2004). All the others have been LIMITED SLIPS, very similar but not a true 100 percent locker. That is a moot point though. If you are familar with any American backcountry or the history of Jeeps then just think for a second about all those 2 track "roads" in the mountains of Colorado, or any place but let's use Colorado as an example. Rocky , muddy narraow shelf roads at 10, 12,000 feet and I'm confident those were first driven by Jeeps with open differential front and rear and little skinny military tires to boot! Beyond that most trucks in America up until the late 80's were generally Open/Open from the factory Jeep offered a limited slip back in the early 70's, maybe late 60's but it was generally gearing back then.

Unless you're living in the Australian outback or Mongolia, or some such place to say Jeeps only get driven off road occasionally or driven down a paved raod (in your final paragraph) is a "joke" as you put it compared to a vehicle living it's life off road then I think you don't have any clue into the American history of Off roading. Where are you based by the way?

I've worked on some 1970's Land Cruisers from a Ranch up in the mountains near Tucson Arizona where I live, these were ranch "trucks" and were driven as such their whole life. two of them needed significant welding along the frames where the steering gearbox mounts because of stress cracks (this was about 15 years ago so my memory is not as clear but I believe they also needed the radiator supports welded and one might've needed firewall work where the clutch master sits). They all have problems is my point.


Finally the whole "Overlanding" LABEL is kinda ridiculous. I joined the forum because I like the outdoors and travel (even if it;s just virtual travel and adventure). but this mentality that you (not you literally but some members in general) view yourself as an "overlander" is corny. In my mind Overlanding is just a label and a relatively new concept, in the past we knew it as "traveling" or "exploring", or maybe an explorer. My point is that just because one might take a two week or a two month trip (no matter what the details are, be it traveling in ones own state or in another part of the world) does not make you a "Overlander" no more than the guy going camping overnight an hour from his home does not make him not an "Overlander".

I'm heading to Colorado with my Jeep for a week in late July and I'll be camping out for three nights and probably motel it two nights. I will hike, explorer Ghost towns/mining camps and do about 2,000 miles total trip, just me and the dog. I will not be "overlanding". i will be going on a vacation.....a road trip...camping......

Mercedes has been using full selectable lockers in the Unimog since day one in the 1940s. Then mercedes had lockers in the g-wagon in 1979. Toyota offered full locking diffs in the fj60 in the 1980's and the fj80 had optional lockers in the 90s. Mitsubishi montero's had lockers in the 90s as well. That's really cool that jeeps are reliable driving on hard packed roads here in North America. Does it matter where I live? I drive a Toyota knowing that if it will last years of hard abuse overseas it will last even longer here.


"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials."
— George Mason, in Debates in Virginia Convention on Ratification of the Constitution, Elliot, Vol. 3, June 16, 1788
 

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